Benefits of a USAF Officer CAP/CC

[Eclipse]

Now, i believe the system we have can work, in fact HAS worked before, it just has fallen to "corruption".

By what measure has it "fallen to corruption"?

[RADIOMAN015]

It's just a shame we have our egos which keep getting in the way.  Hence, as Ned says, the reason for an independent study on governance.

And I wonder how much money this study is going to cost the membership, and hopefully it won't be the American taxpayer that will be footing this bill!
RM

[Major Carrales]

Now, i believe the system we have can work, in fact HAS worked before, it just has fallen to "corruption".

By what measure has it "fallen to corruption"?

I have to ask the same?  While there have been issues up there...it is far from fact to say that the Civil Air Patrol is a  corrupt and morally bankrupt organization.  To make that statement is a bit of a slap in the face to the "squadron member" giving all for their "community, State and Nation."

[NCRblues]

Now, i believe the system we have can work, in fact HAS worked before, it just has fallen to "corruption".

By what measure has it "fallen to corruption"?

I have to ask the same?  While there have been issues up there...it is far from fact to say that the Civil Air Patrol is a  corrupt and morally bankrupt organization.  To make that statement is a bit of a slap in the face to the "squadron member" giving all for their "community, State and Nation."

I should have said, SOME of it has fallen to corruption. Some members of the NB like the power, others like the travel to different city's every year for NB meetings. Not everyone on the NB is a saint like some on here tend to believe.

I get it, I am not "popular" on this board, and many out right hate me. But corruption is there, and has been there for a long time... no i cant cite a single thing like someone will ask, its all "rumors" or people telling me things. Many of you will not accept that, and i get it, but CAP is not a perfect organization. We have "bad guys" in cap, just like every place else....

[SarDragon]

Members select the NB, which selects the NEC.  The NB selects the CAP/CC.  CAP/CC appoints Region/CC.  Region/CC appoints Wing/CC.

Well, the current plan doesn't work that way

The NB = 52 Wing Commanders + the 8 Region Commanders + some other folks.

The NEC = the NB minus the Wing Commanders.

How would the structure of the NEC change to allow what you are proposing?

[PHall]

It's just a shame we have our egos which keep getting in the way.  Hence, as Ned says, the reason for an independent study on governance.

And I wonder how much money this study is going to cost the membership, and hopefully it won't be the American taxpayer that will be footing this bill!
RM

They'll know how much it's going to cost when they accept the winning bid.
And it will be coming from your dues money, so make sure you renew. We need the bucks.

[Major Carrales]

Now, i believe the system we have can work, in fact HAS worked before, it just has fallen to "corruption".

By what measure has it "fallen to corruption"?

I have to ask the same?  While there have been issues up there...it is far from fact to say that the Civil Air Patrol is a  corrupt and morally bankrupt organization.  To make that statement is a bit of a slap in the face to the "squadron member" giving all for their "community, State and Nation."

I should have said, SOME of it has fallen to corruption. Some members of the NB like the power, others like the travel to different city's every year for NB meetings. Not everyone on the NB is a saint like some on here tend to believe.

I get it, I am not "popular" on this board, and many out right hate me. But corruption is there, and has been there for a long time... no i cant cite a single thing like someone will ask, its all "rumors" or people telling me things. Many of you will not accept that, and i get it, but CAP is not a perfect organization. We have "bad guys" in cap, just like every place else....

No...in fact, I've grown quite fond of you

You should know, if you follow my posts, that I don't go in for the speculations, rumors and groundless issues brought forth here.  I usually take the rumors with a grain of salt.  So many, especially here on CAPTALK, are quick to accept "wild" and "entertaining"  speculations, rumors and groundless issue as facts, unquestioned...and true, confirmable and substantial points (many times from sources of authority on the subject) with skepticism.

I don't want you to abandon your direction here, you've aksed for more time to develop your position and I am looking forward to reading it.  I just ask you to back up allegations of corruption...or, if its a suspicion, to say so (not present it is a given that CAP is corrupt.) I know what it's like to be the "hated one" and "outsider" here.   I'll not be a part to it.

[NCRblues]

So, i have thought a lot about this, and have even called and discussed this issue a lot with one of my great friends who also posts on here...


IMHO, our system is broken. It worked with the past generations but i don't know if it can continue to work now.

My idea would be this.

#1. make the NB just the wing commanders, and make it like the House of Representatives. Remove the region commanders and national vice and national commander.
#2 Have the region commanders stay on the NEC, with the rest that currently reside on the NEC, but remove the vice/cc and national/cc, the NEC would be something like the Senate.
#3 Make any rules, regulations, ICL's ext... be passed by both the NB and the NEC by simple majority vote.
#4 give the national/cc a veto power, but give the NB and NEC (with a 2/3rds vote) an override.
#5 maintain the BOG as a sort of Supream court with oversight and the ability to say "no bad boys and girls" to everyone.


The NB could act as the House of Representatives for the common cap member, with the NEC acting like the Senate for the corporation/AF side of the house.

The national commander should be the executive, enforce the rules and regs passed by the NB/NEC, and the nat/cc should be the champion of CAP.
they should travel the country, speak and sing our praises in every state capitol building in America. They should sing our praises and even beg the AF and congress
if necessary for more funding, more missions and more roles to take on. They should be the voice and the face of CAP.

Once a year, have every wing commander have a "town hall" style meeting that asks the general membership what can CAP do better, what do you need/want from the NB.
It can be held at wing conferences, the same could apply for region/cc's as well. Make it a requirement to hold these town hall meetings.

Have the NB and NEC minutes out and available for comment by the standard CAP member 30 days before the meeting (minimum) so as to insure an openness about out operations
at a higher level.

If the National/cc veto's something, have it published in eservices, and have them post a letter on why they did what they did.

The NB would still vote to elect the National/CC, and maybe we could even have the NEC vote for the vice, just so the running Field can stay separate.

I'm still working out details in my head, and i could post them later, but my basic idea.....feel free to rip it apart!

[JeffDG]

Members select the NB, which selects the NEC.  The NB selects the CAP/CC.  CAP/CC appoints Region/CC.  Region/CC appoints Wing/CC.

Well, the current plan doesn't work that way

The NB = 52 Wing Commanders + the 8 Region Commanders + some other folks.

The NEC = the NB minus the Wing Commanders.

How would the structure of the NEC change to allow what you are proposing?

I'm proposing completely decoupling "Command" from "Board".

The NB would be entirely separate from Wing Commanders.  The Board would then, from its own membership, select a smaller NEC that could operate between NB meetings.

There is no reason the Wing/CC = NB Member. 

[BillB]

One change that does need to be made in my opinion is the Appointment of Wing IG's by the Region IG. Currently the IG system is broken when the Wing CC appoints his IG and the IG is thus under the thumb of the Wing CC. The IF system needs to be totally independent of the politics in the Wings, and it isn't.
Now if an IG conducts an investigation and the results aren't what the Wing CC wants, chances are that IG is replaced. Let the Wing CC make all the staff appointments he/she wants, but put the IG system out of reach of the Wing Commanders.

[FW]

Sir,
I just don't feel that an elections process would be best for CAP.

1) Who will have suffrage?  If we say "active CAP members," what is the definition of an "active CAP member?"  One who pays dues?  Holds a Staff Position?   What about cadets?  Cadet Sponsors?  And a whole host of others?

2) WING CONFERENCE ELECTIONEERING-  I don't like the idea of people politicking at CAP activities.  Having people trying to win votes from me in AMERICAN POLITICAL ELECTIONS is annoying...much less people hitting me up for votes at a SARex or WING CONFERENCE.  Electing Squadron Commanders would be a fiasco, electing WING Commanders would be a disaster.

3) REPRISALS- Suppose I make an enemy (like that could happen) of one of the candidates for WING COMMANDER, or if I ran and lost.  Suppose the election was divisive and I had supporters throughout the Wing and the other fellow did as well.  Suppose I lose and now have to "fight" the administration for basics?  What would be done about the fact that there are now factions...backed up by the system.

4) Politically Driven Investigation-  How would we deal with the fact that even minor mishaps suddenly become FRONT PAGE news for the sole purpose of fall some CAP official?  I would much rather have investigations be conducted in the name of improving safety, preventing disaster or good ole integrity than politically driven witch hunts.

Just a few issues that can occur...and do in other organizations of which I am a part.   

I don't think electing a squadron commander would serve any purpose.  That job is reserved for that special individual who is able (masochistic) enough to handle it.  I don't know of many squadrons who have members clamoring for the job.  I think we can agree here.

If all senior members vote for a slate of pre screened candidates placed in nomination by an approved and independent nominating board, it wouldn't matter who won; since all candidates would be qualified.
I doubt there would be "reprisals".  There could still be a MARB to correct those issues.  There is the matter of regional "turf" battles within larger wings.  That needs to addressed.

Our system today requires "candidates" to ingratiate themselves to the "gobn". We must show that we agree with all policies and requirements of the "leader" to garner favor and position. I think it may be better to get a larger selection pool; especially for wing commanders. If, as JefDG says, we have separation of command and governance, I don't think this will be bad.  If the IG system is part of the governing board, political investigations will be squashed. That is not what happens with our current system.  Just look at some web pages concerning CAP today if you wish clarification. I could give examples but, I'd have to shoot you...   But, just look at what's been going on with our leadership in the last 6 years and get an idea that we have some major "logistical" problems with our governance and, it is effecting our leadership in way that is becoming more perceptible to the members each month.

In any event, we will be dipping into our piggy bank to finance this study.  I hope some real research will go into it. Interviews of the general membership, former and current leaders and BoG members must be extensive and unburdened by coercion or fear.

[ZigZag911]

appointed by their supperiors.  The CEO reports to the Board, and the Board is elected by the shareholders.

Shareholders...not employees.

CAP members are not employees...we're members.

Electing region, wing, group or squadron commanders would admittedly be a bad idea for CAP...it works OK, I guess, for Caost Guard Auxiliary, but we have a different culture and history.

My suggestion is to elect the wing representative to the National Board to a two year term, renewable only once.

I'll go further, and limit the franchise privilege to senior members who have completed both Level 2 and two years CAP service (Red Service Ribbon earned).
You want to vote? Fine, get some knowledge of and experience in CAP.

Yeah, there would be politicking, but there already is...this way there might be more transparency and accountability.

[ZigZag911]

Two more points"

1) NCRblues -- interesting set up (NEC = senate, NB = house)....given the track record of the existing US Congress, why do you feel this would work any better?

2) Wing IGs can only be removed, I believe, with concurrence by National IG...CAP & USAF have worked diligently over the past 5 to 10 years to bring the CAP IG program more in line with that of the military...commanders receive reports and make the final decisions, but are expected to allow the IGs independence to do their jobs.

[RiverAux]

NCRBlues idea might be ok if all the members of his CAP legislature weren't handpicked by the leadership. 

[Major Carrales]

Many of you are suggesting precariously compleicated systems of governance including "bi-cameral" legislative structures, parallel structures where there is a Wing Commander and a "Representative" almost a "Federal" system and structures where there will likely be grid lock.

How can we get unified National objectives down to the squadrons when the flow and current of governance is going in the opposite direction?

A so called "Federalist CAP/CAP Confederation," where Wings have some sort of autonomy (which will happen because the needs of one Wing alone is not the need of all Wings...the natural pull will be to retact into their regional needs), opens a complicated system which will likely be as plagued by corrpution as we have now.

Remember, the "simple" road is the best.  Objectives need to come from the top down...not the bottom up.  While I believe "grassroots" movements can exist and affect change in CAP, we have too many blades of grass with too many roots to make that anything less than chaos.

[NCRblues]

Two more points"

1) NCRblues -- interesting set up (NEC = senate, NB = house)....given the track record of the existing US Congress, why do you feel this would work any better?

2) Wing IGs can only be removed, I believe, with concurrence by National IG...CAP & USAF have worked diligently over the past 5 to 10 years to bring the CAP IG program more in line with that of the military...commanders receive reports and make the final decisions, but are expected to allow the IGs independence to do their jobs.

I cant guarantee it will work better. In fact, no one here can guarantee ANY of this we are discussing will work.

BUT, but....i believe IMHO, that by having open vote's on the NB/NEC and an open veto process by the NAT/CC would allow the general membership to better understand the policy making process. Having open votes (on record) will allow people to see who is for or against item ABC123 ext....

If after a member on the NEC/NB votes for or against something, and the general membership See's it, they can then go to the NB/NEC members and have an informed and open discusion about the issue. How it affects them or their area of operation....

[Mustang]

2) WING CONFERENCE ELECTIONEERING-  I don't like the idea of people politicking at CAP activities.  Having people trying to win votes from me in AMERICAN POLITICAL ELECTIONS is annoying...much less people hitting me up for votes at a SARex or WING CONFERENCE.  Electing Squadron Commanders would be a fiasco, electing WING Commanders would be a disaster.

Guessing you haven't been to a Summer National Board lately.  The shmoozing engaged in by candidates for CAP/CV in particular has risen to embarrassing levels. 


With one year remaining in Courter's term and the sitting CV being damaged goods, this year's elections promise to be a low point for CAP as the power- and prestige-hungry among the National Board jockey for position to be the next CAP/CC. According to my wing cc, the campaigning has already started.

[NCRblues]

2) WING CONFERENCE ELECTIONEERING-  I don't like the idea of people politicking at CAP activities.  Having people trying to win votes from me in AMERICAN POLITICAL ELECTIONS is annoying...much less people hitting me up for votes at a SARex or WING CONFERENCE.  Electing Squadron Commanders would be a fiasco, electing WING Commanders would be a disaster.

Guessing you haven't been to a Summer National Board lately.  The shmoozing engaged in by candidates for CAP/CV in particular has risen to embarrassing levels. 


With one year remaining in Courter's term and the sitting CV being damaged goods, this year's elections promise to be a low point for CAP as the power- and prestige-hungry among the National Board jockey for position to be the next CAP/CC. According to my wing cc, the campaigning has already started.

The "campaigning" started months ago, that not anything new to anyone with there ear to the ground. Also, i am shocked at the lack of responses to my idea.... did i kill the thread?   Did my idea blow your mind? 

[FW]

NCRblues; my mind is blown....

Gentlemen, there seems to be a slight disconnect with our current realities. 


First, the NB and NEC have deligated authority to make policies.  The BoG is the governing body and, may over rule or change the authority of the NB and NEC at will and, at any time. 

Second, the problems we have with governance, IMHO, do not stem from who is making the decisions.  The problems are due to the lack of understanding of "who is in charge" (see first sentence).  We, for all intents and purposes have a corporate structure superimposed on a military structure.  The superimposition is the perceived problem.  The question is; how do we improve this structure.  ZigZag911, JefDG and, NCRblues have made interesting reccommendations however, these ideas do not address the BoG and it's relationship with any body it deligates authority to.  It is the reason why I suggest a slightly expanded BoG (governing board) and a board of commanders who's sole purpose is to lead the volunteers and enforce governing policies. (This, of course will need approval from congress.)

There also needs to be a well defined interface between the two bodies allowing the exchange of ideas.  How this will work is above my pay grade.  However, I hope that we will deal with what ever changes are ahead for us.

So, in conclusion, if I am elected.....

[RiverAux]

I think most would agree that ONE of the problems is the "who is in charge?" issue.  The other is how the leaders of the organization are chosen which seems to be of much greater interest as it has more direct bearing on the average CAP member's life.