Precedent of CAP using Night Vision for aircrew

[PORed]

I was scanner in an aircrew a couple of days back for a night joint agency SAR exercise. The mission was a group of overturned kayakers scattered across several small islands and in the water. I cleared it with both my squadron commander and wing commander to use an old set of night vision (NVG) I have. They are nothing spectacular, just old GEN 1 surplus and they work fantastically. With the NVG I was able to spot personal strobes and flashlights easily and could even make out some persons on the shoreline. My question is whether or not there is a precedent of CAP using NVG in an aircrew or ground team capacity and also is there any kind of grant available to purchase NVGs?

[isuhawkeye]

Sure thing,

I have used NVG's on both ground teams and air crews. 

Before you do so, you must be aware of the current position of regulations.  Initally there was no restriction on the topic, then a knee jerk restricted their use by any aircrew member.  I think they finally settled on the fact that the pilot, or driver of the vehicle should not be under NVG, and the cockpit should not be blacked down. 

[PORed]

Absolutely, the squadron commander, who was also the mission pilot, the wing commander and myself sat and discussed it. Nothing was changed to the cockpit conditions all equipment was left at normal lighting, and we all knew of the regulation that pilot or observer/co-pilot should not be wear NVGs. The Wing Commander was very impressed, as were the ground and boat crews we worked with. We felt the use of the NVGs greatly increased our mission effectiveness. I am glad to hear there is some precedent of CAP use of NVGs, I know my wing is now testing the waters and to see about initially setting up the idea of a Wing asset of NVGs which could be signed out by necessity and later possible each  squadron having a pair which would be signed out by necessity. I am helping out with this and was just hoping to find more evidence to support my case   

[Eclipse]

2-17. Prohibited Equipment. The use of night vision devices by the pilot flying CAP aircraft is prohibited. Night vision devices are for use ONLY by scanners and observers who have completed nationally approved training in the use of this equipment. Only nationally approved night vision devices are authorized for use.

As an FYI, I have never seen any nationally sanctioned NVG training or list of approved devices.

One would hope that anything a member brought, and the owner's manual would be enough.

[Larry Mangum]

The use of night vision goggles (NVG) are not prohibited however CAPR 60-1 is very specific on there use:

2-17. Prohibited Equipment. The use of night vision devices by the pilot flying CAP aircraft is prohibited. Night vision devices are for use ONLY by scanners and observers who have completed nationally approved training in the use of this equipment. Only nationally approved night vision devices are authorized for use.

As you can see by this paragraph both the observer and the scanner can use them. However, only national approved devices can be used and you have to have completed a nationally approved training course.

Last spring Washington Wing conducted a test at the request of the Air Force using equipment provided by 1st AF along with training on there use by qualified Air Force personnel.  We also found the equipment incredibly helpful in locating targets at night. We limited there use to the back seat and rigged a black out curtain between the front seats and the back seats.  The crews loved using them.

I do not know if this will help us move forward with the use of NVG's at night or not. I do know they would need to be issued on a CAPF 37 as the ones we used cost something like 35K a piece

[Flying Pig]

With the Sheriff's Air Unit that I am with, both the pilots and Flight Officer use NVG's.  We are using the AN/AVS-9.  We buy them for about $12k each.  We get them through Homeland Security.  They have to be sent in about onece per year for standard maintenance.   I think that costs about $500 per pair.  As far as cost, if we startt flying with NVG's, we need to throw the cost of a helmet in also.

In the mountainous areas we fly in we have performed several missions that would have otherwise impossible without them.

[PORed]

Last spring Washington Wing conducted a test at the request of the Air Force using equipment provided by 1st AF along with training on there use by qualified Air Force personnel.  We also found the equipment incredibly helpful in locating targets at night. We limited there use to the back seat and rigged a black out curtain between the front seats and the back seats.  The crews loved using them.

I do not know if this will help us move forward with the use of NVG's at night or not. I do know they would need to be issued on a CAPF 37 as the ones we used cost something like 35K a piece

That is out standing and we were unaware of that even occurring. I think the way for my Wing to move right now is formulating a list of approved NVG devices. I am in the Coast Guard as well and I know the NVGs we use for small boat operations and lookouts on our ships are significant less then what our aircrews use. I am qualified to use the NVGs in the Coast Guard and while I know that is not an Air Force or CAP qual it is better then nothing and I actually hoped to use the USCG Personnel Qualification Standard for NVG use in the CAP as well until there is a National qualification. Besides the NVGs we will be using at my Squadron are mine, I donated them to the Squadron so we have some to work with just not the GEN 4 stuff the rest of the services use.

[PORed]

The NVGs we us in the USCG are the AN/PVS - 14 and I love them they work great I think they are only early GEN 3 as well. We aren't even looking for the Pilot to use NVGs, all we are looking for at this point is the ability to have a standard for a Scanner in the rear with a pair of NVGs. I realize that during night missions the Observer needs to be a pilot as well and needs to not be worried with using extra equipment. That is a use great for a scanner, it lets the mission pilot and observer/co-pilot deal with flying and the scanner is in the rear with his head on a swivel. We rigged up a hood for while we were using the NVGs, I just draped a shelter half over my head and equipment 

[Eclipse]

I realize that during night missions the Observer needs to be a pilot as well and needs to not be worried with using extra equipment. That is a use great for a scanner, it lets the mission pilot and observer/co-pilot deal with flying and the scanner is in the rear with his head on a swivel.

Off-topic, I know, sorry - but it should be made clear - Mission Observers are >NOT< co-pilots, in any form.

Certainly some of our best MO's are pilots as well, but the fact that many try to be the PIC2 is what causes us problems.

The MO has a very specific list of duties and responsibilities, and flying the airplane is not one of them.

...now back to the NVG thread...

[Eclipse]

These are the AN/PVS-14's mentioned above:



Current new is about $4k, looks like the sweet spot for NVG monoculars is about $2k new.

[Eclipse]

And you can get these for about $15 on eBay!   

[PORed]

And you can get these for about $15 on eBay!  

with my wing and squadron's budget that isn't to far from the mark haha. I have been search alot for what is out there and I have found GEN 1 binoculars for around 500 - 750 dollars that would actually fit the bill and could be used for both Air Crew and Ground Team.


like these for 760.00 w/ 5X power...

[PORed]

and here is all I have, Night Owl Optics, GEN 1, 3X zoom and they worked great for the situation. For our task we don't need the several thousand dollar goggles. If a $200.00 set of refurbished Russian NVGs can do the trick, a nice set like the binos I posted should do wonders and they stay multi mission capable.

[Al Sayre]

A lot of newer video cameras have low light/night vision with 10X zoom and it provides a record that you can review if the need arises.

[PORed]

I didn't even think of that, that might be an even better option honestly then just true NVGs it depends on the difference in picture quality honestly.

[wingnut]

The Cheap Night vision devices are often active and require a light source so your target reflects the light, The other factor is the field of view and how far you can actually spot a target. none of the current 'Cheap " units allow you to see out to 1,000 feet. With that said the only real option is to use the
3rd  Generation military issue and the 4th generation coming out soon. The training of air crews  is essential, I know most guys puke if they try to fly with a 4x scope on their eyes. Many of the  Archer operators loose it after an hour of Archer operation. We have to have a process that screens aircrew to be able to withstand the rigors of this type of equipment or we will just have a bunch of people who cannot fly because they  puke so bad they can't function in flight.

We do need the tool, Flir is another choice, believe it or not Archer does work at night or on dark objects too, 'Hyperpectral"!!

[♠SARKID♠]

I can definitely see the use for FLIR.  On a recent missing persons search, the local sheriff was calling all the way down to Iowa wing looking for FLIR capable CAP aircraft.  Obviously, he didn't find any.  I've heard about it being used on searches by other organizations lately and it could be a very valuable asset to CAP's search capabilities.

[wingnut]

I was at the American Society for Industrial Security conference in Vegas and I looked at some of the new Flir technology, now granted it is expensive but the FLIR  devices are the size of a standard video camera. The question is who is doing the integration of new technology into CAP, and if it is like the Globlstar SDIS deal we will go broke. It makes much more sense for us to integrate off the shelf Military hardware that is tried and true than to recreate the wheel.

Side Bar, the SDIS system is a great Idea, exactly what we need to be doing, we just got lied to by the Globalstar sales people. They are only going to focus on places were people buy phones, Africa, Asia, etc.

We all have cell phones in the US, so globalstar has no market here.

[Carl C]

The use of night vision goggles (NVG) are not prohibited however CAPR 60-1 is very specific on there use:

2-17. Prohibited Equipment. The use of night vision devices by the pilot flying CAP aircraft is prohibited. Night vision devices are for use ONLY by scanners and observers who have completed nationally approved training in the use of this equipment. Only nationally approved night vision devices are authorized for use.

Any info on this "nationally approved" training?

[Flying Pig]

First, I wouldnt fly with a $200 det of K-Mart NVG's.  If your going to do it, dont go half way. It isnt going to work.  You arent going to get the detail you need to fly.  They need to be helmet mounted and hands free.  None of this binocular stuff.

As far as using a FLIR, I use one all the time and we use it for SAR as well.  Its a little difficult in SAR because you have to search small areas at once, but it works.

[SAR-EMT1]

Has CAP ever looked at getting NVG or FLIR systems permanently? AE- other then the Washington Wing Test.

I think one FLIR system per region mounted on a 182 or the Airvan would be a smart investment.

[PORed]

The cheaper NVGs or NVG binos are not for flight use, I agree that it would be ludicrous to try to fly with those. I am talking for the Scanner or Observer exclusively. I don't see the need for the pilot to be flying with night vision quiet yet; we aren't going into situations where the cockpit and aircraft have to been darkened for a hostile environment. The whole idea is in a night situation for the pilot to worry exclusively with flying the aircraft and the scanner or observer dealing with being the lookout. I know after our mission debrief that the mission observer said he felt he was too busy helping the pilot and working the radio to effectively be the only pair of eyes looking out, especially on a night mission.