CAP receipient of the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award.

Started by Chappie, September 20, 2016, 04:46:37 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

THRAWN

Quote from: PHall on September 21, 2016, 06:12:16 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 21, 2016, 04:28:50 PM
These two things are not the same.

Rhetoric aside, the CGAux is never "not" the CGAux, they are always a uniformed auxiliary with no corporate component.

CAP's relationship is much more complicated, and both sides of the house use the "mostly corporate" reality of CAP when it suits them,
their mission, or their lawyers.

These realities don't just dissolve because marketing decided to change the posters, and as a matter of published fact by both CAP
and the USAF, there is only a very small percentage of the membership who are ever considered "Total Force".  Unless you are involved in
Operations, TF doesn't include you, that's been made crystal clear by both sides, yet that reality is generally left quietly in the corner of the room.

tl;dr Members are only Total Force when in "auxiliary" status, and "auxiliary status" is only conferred during AFAMS.
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2687/~/total-force-faqs

I would submit to you that for the purposes of presenting USAF Unit awards, the CAP is now considered part of the Total Force and that any CAP unit, or CAP as a whole, are eligible for USAF Unit Awards at anytime. The precedent has just been set.

Unless the awarding instructions state: "Members must have been on AFAM orders during the period  01 October 2012 to 31 August 2016 to be eligible for the award" the "Aux on" vs "Aux off" doesn't matter.

So who is going to issue the order authorizing CAP members to wear this award? ???
When an Air Force unit gets this award all of the military members who were members of the unit during the award period are awarded the ribbon.
Civilian members of the unit (DAF ond DOD Civilian Employees) are not authorized the ribbon but are awarded a lapel pin version of the ribbon.

Since it is the SECAF awarding it, the order will probably come from her office. As for the display of the award, who knows. Anything other than speculation would be just a guess on anyone's part.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

abdsp51

Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 05:48:08 PM
I would submit to you that for the purposes of presenting USAF Unit awards, the CAP is now considered part of the Total Force and that any CAP unit, or CAP as a whole, are eligible for USAF Unit Awards at anytime. The precedent has just been set.

Unless the awarding instructions state: "Members must have been on AFAM orders during the period  01 October 2012 to 31 August 2016 to be eligible for the award" the "Aux on" vs "Aux off" doesn't matter.

Yeah no not how "Total Force" works here sorry try again.

NIN

Quote from: THRAWN on September 21, 2016, 06:39:56 PM
Since it is the SECAF awarding it, the order will probably come from her office. As for the display of the award, who knows. Anything other than speculation would be just a guess on anyone's part.

^^^ This.

We'll know when we know. And not too much sooner than that.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Chappie

My strong hunch is that the award will be displayed only on the organizational flag and no ribbon will be worn on the uniforms of the members.  I am just glad that the USAF gave this level of recognition to CAP.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

THRAWN

Quote from: Chappie on September 21, 2016, 07:49:13 PM
My strong hunch is that the award will be displayed only on the organizational flag and no ribbon will be worn on the uniforms of the members.  I am just glad that the USAF gave this level of recognition to CAP.

You are not alone in that hunch. In that case, NHQ might want to put out some guidance on the wear of the lapel pin and have a mechanism to distribute good quality copies of the certificate to all of the love me wall nerds.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Shuman 14

Quote from: THRAWN on September 21, 2016, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Chappie on September 21, 2016, 07:49:13 PM
My strong hunch is that the award will be displayed only on the organizational flag and no ribbon will be worn on the uniforms of the members.  I am just glad that the USAF gave this level of recognition to CAP.

You are not alone in that hunch. In that case, NHQ might want to put out some guidance on the wear of the lapel pin and have a mechanism to distribute good quality copies of the certificate to all of the love me wall nerds.

I don't know, I suspect that very shortly every member of CAP will have a shiny new ribbon on their uniform.

I know, change in thinking is hard, but this a good change.  ;)
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 08:33:07 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on September 21, 2016, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Chappie on September 21, 2016, 07:49:13 PM
My strong hunch is that the award will be displayed only on the organizational flag and no ribbon will be worn on the uniforms of the members.  I am just glad that the USAF gave this level of recognition to CAP.

You are not alone in that hunch. In that case, NHQ might want to put out some guidance on the wear of the lapel pin and have a mechanism to distribute good quality copies of the certificate to all of the love me wall nerds.

I don't know, I suspect that very shortly every member of CAP will have a shiny new ribbon on their uniform.

I know, change in thinking is hard, but this a good change.  ;)


Which would be stupid.

Shuman 14

QuoteWhich would be stupid. 

Stupid how? That's how unit awards work, every Joe and Jane in the unit during the qualifying period of the award gets a ribbon to wear on their uniform.

Did a lot, did a little, did nothing at all, everyone gets the ribbon.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

MHC5096

Quote from: THRAWN on September 21, 2016, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Chappie on September 21, 2016, 07:49:13 PM
My strong hunch is that the award will be displayed only on the organizational flag and no ribbon will be worn on the uniforms of the members.  I am just glad that the USAF gave this level of recognition to CAP.

You are not alone in that hunch. In that case, NHQ might want to put out some guidance on the wear of the lapel pin and have a mechanism to distribute good quality copies of the certificate to all of the love me wall nerds.

The problem with that theory is that the lapel pin is for wear on civilian clothing, not the uniform. On the otherhand, a DAF civilian employee who earned an AFOUA or AFOEA and also happened to be in a reserve or guard unit would be able to wear the ribbon on their uniform when serving in that capacity. I've updated plenty of personnel records over the years while working in MPFs.
Mark H. Crary
Lt Col, CAP (1990-Present)
DVC-VI, CGAUX (2011-Present)
MSgt, USAF (1995-2011)
QM2, USN (1989-1995)

Shuman 14

QuoteThe problem with that theory is that the lapel pin is for wear on civilian clothing, not the uniform. On the otherhand, a DAF civilian employee who earned an AFOUA or AFOEA and also happened to be in a reserve or guard unit would be able to wear the ribbon on their uniform when serving in that capacity. I've updated plenty of personnel records over the years while working in MPFs.

I concur, I have several USCG unit awards from my service in the USCGAux that I had added to my personnel records in the Army, I wear the ribbons on my Army uniform.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

MHC5096

Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 09:18:49 PM
QuoteThe problem with that theory is that the lapel pin is for wear on civilian clothing, not the uniform. On the otherhand, a DAF civilian employee who earned an AFOUA or AFOEA and also happened to be in a reserve or guard unit would be able to wear the ribbon on their uniform when serving in that capacity. I've updated plenty of personnel records over the years while working in MPFs.

I concur, I have several USCG unit awards from my service in the USCGAux that I had added to my personnel records in the Army, I wear the ribbons on my Army uniform.

Likewise. I also had several Coast Guard unit awards that I earned with the CGAUX after I retired added to my service record via a DD-215.
Mark H. Crary
Lt Col, CAP (1990-Present)
DVC-VI, CGAUX (2011-Present)
MSgt, USAF (1995-2011)
QM2, USN (1989-1995)

RiverAux

Is there still that discrepancy between the CAP uniform and award regs where one says that you can wear US awards authorized by a competent authority and the other one says that they must have been earned while in service?

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 08:58:17 PM
QuoteWhich would be stupid. 

Stupid how? That's how unit awards work, every Joe and Jane in the unit during the qualifying period of the award gets a ribbon to wear on their uniform.

Did a lot, did a little, did nothing at all, everyone gets the ribbon.

Because literally the whole organization would get it. Not a unit. If everyone has it, no one has it.

Chappie

From my view in the cheap seats....I see a lapel pin for wear on the blazer or civilian wear and nada for the USAF-style or aviator uniforms.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

HGjunkie

Quote from: Капитан Хаткевич on September 21, 2016, 11:08:33 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2016, 08:58:17 PM
QuoteWhich would be stupid. 

Stupid how? That's how unit awards work, every Joe and Jane in the unit during the qualifying period of the award gets a ribbon to wear on their uniform.

Did a lot, did a little, did nothing at all, everyone gets the ribbon.

Because literally the whole organization would get it. Not a unit. If everyone has it, no one has it.

It's a good "gee-whiz" thing to throw into recruitment or outreach programs when describing how CAP directly affects the USAF and homeland security missions.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

coudano

So 18 year old cadet snuffy earns the AFOEA via being in CAP during the time of the cite.
He goes and enlists in the USAF.

Does he walk in to BMT with an AFOEA ready for his blues at graduation parade?

:clap:

MHC5096

If the award is officially awarded to the cadet and his personnel record is updated to reflect the award then the answer is yes. I had one of my CGAUX troops pick up a commission as a LTJG with the Navy JAG Corps. When he graduated from ODS was able to wear the Coast Guard Unit Commendation, Coast Guard Meritorious Unit Commendation and the 3 Coast Guard Meritorious Team Commendations he had been awarded in the CGAUX. No reason why this would be any different.
Mark H. Crary
Lt Col, CAP (1990-Present)
DVC-VI, CGAUX (2011-Present)
MSgt, USAF (1995-2011)
QM2, USN (1989-1995)

RogueLeader

Quote from: MHC5096 on September 22, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
If the award is officially awarded to the cadet and his personnel record is updated to reflect the award then the answer is yes. I had one of my CGAUX troops pick up a commission as a LTJG with the Navy JAG Corps. When he graduated from ODS was able to wear the Coast Guard Unit Commendation, Coast Guard Meritorious Unit Commendation and the 3 Coast Guard Meritorious Team Commendations he had been awarded in the CGAUX. No reason why this would be any different.

I have 8 members in my unit that this would affect, not counting the numerous vets in the unit.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

Eclipse

Quote from: MHC5096 on September 22, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
If the award is officially awarded to the cadet and his personnel record is updated to reflect the award then the answer is yes. I had one of my CGAUX troops pick up a commission as a LTJG with the Navy JAG Corps. When he graduated from ODS was able to wear the Coast Guard Unit Commendation, Coast Guard Meritorious Unit Commendation and the 3 Coast Guard Meritorious Team Commendations he had been awarded in the CGAUX.


Quote from: MHC5096 on September 22, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
No reason why this would be any different.

Other then they are, completely different situations, both practically and from a regulatory standpoint.

As has been discussed on this board far more then one would probably assume considering this is CAPTalk and not CGAUXTalk,
Coast Guard Auxiliarists are fully authorized to receive a number of CG decorations under their status as the Aux.

Civil Air Patrol is not afforded that ability.

"That Others May Zoom"

kwe1009

Quote from: MHC5096 on September 21, 2016, 09:13:54 PM
The problem with that theory is that the lapel pin is for wear on civilian clothing, not the uniform. On the otherhand, a DAF civilian employee who earned an AFOUA or AFOEA and also happened to be in a reserve or guard unit would be able to wear the ribbon on their uniform when serving in that capacity. I've updated plenty of personnel records over the years while working in MPFs.

Negative.  That DAF civilian would not be able to wear any award they earned in a civilian status on a military uniform.  If they are an IMA assigned to an active duty unit that won the award then they could wear it.  When the Air Force Personnel Center updates a member's record with a unit award it is done for those who were assigned to the unit for at least one day during the period of award.  While GS-11 John Smith may have been assigned to that unit, MSgt John Smith wasn't.