Multiple Badges Question/Discussion

[majdomke]

I haven't seen this question posted so I figure I'll post it here...

I have an AF Occupation Badge - Security Police, and CAP Ground Team badge. While the regs say nothing about wearing more than one specialty badge above the left tape, it never says you can either. It does allow for the wear of multiple badges such as wings, ground team, etc... When I questioned NHQ they said only one was allowed and I would need to decided which one to wear. This would apply on both the BDU and Service Dress uniforms. Since getting the ruling I've followed their instructions. This past weekend I attended a wing activity and noticed at least two other senior members wearing their AF occupation badges and ground team badges. Trying to be nice, I let them know what NHQ says on this and they said it was in the regs and allowed. Who am I to argue but it needs to be more clear, and I feel allowed since we could wear our military wings if we had them. Any thoughts or ideas?

[Eclipse]

You're only allowed one, other people breaking the reg and looking like goobers not withstanding.

We (CAP) are allowed one specialty badge and one aviation badge, no matter where its worn, and the AF Occupation badges are considered a specialty badge.

The only exception is if you choose to wear a set of military wings over CAP wings, it look ridiculous, but it is allowed, in which case you'd have to forgo the GT/AFO badges in total.

The EMT badge is the same situation - its considered a specialty badge, and you have to pick one or the other, not wear both.

As to letting others know when they've made a mistake, you did your best and unless they are below you in the chain, you have to FIMO.

[Hawk200]

Wear of Air Force occupational badges has actually become a lot less clear with the latest 39-1. It used to be that they could be worn in the same manner as specialty insignia, with the military badges worn over CAP badge, but CAP wings would be worn over military badges or wings.

Now, it's not so obvious. On BDU's, most people I knew that wore a military and CAP badge, wore either blue on white mil badges, or else wore a sudbued badge over their (white on blue) CAP badge. I wouldn't put it the other way around, from a distance it would look like you have a bright color one two inches above the tape.

Although it's not authorized, I've seen a member that had Air Force subdued wings on his Blue BDU. It looked tacky. It would have been easier to turn a blind eye to it if the AF wings had been blue on white.

My thoughts would be the same as those wearing a mix. BDU's: subdued on top, so it wouldn't stand out. On blues, mil badge on top. Just make sure measurements and centering is right. You'll get a lot less hassle if you look squared away, rather than having something looking out of place that people will notice.

As far as what National says on it, a lot of times there has been conflicting information. As you noted, there were many that wore two AF occupational badges. The manual does not specify that only a single AF occupational badge is permitted.

Use the manual, don't go on hearsay. There have been instances of Vanguard personnel that have tried to tell members of supposed "uniform policies".

[jimmydeanno]

You're only allowed one, other people breaking the reg and looking like goobers not withstanding.

I haven't been able to find anything that supports that statement. 

Table 6-2 says

Specialty Insignia (Chaplain, Legal, Medical, EMT, Ground Team): Men: centered 1/2 inch above the left breast pocket or 1/2 inch above ribbons. Women: centered 1/2 inch above top row of ribbons; when no ribbons are worn, positioned on the left side of the blouse or coat, 1/2 inch above imaginary row of ribbons. If
the wearer is also authorized to wear a CAP aviation badge, the specialty insignia will be worn 1/2 inch beneath the wings, except the chaplain insignia which is worn above the aviation badge.

NOTE 2: 2. A maximum of four earned badges may be worn on all blue service uniforms. A maximum of two
badges are worn on the left side of the uniform above ribbons, or welt of pocket if ribbons are not
worn.

Table 6-3, which applies to the aviator combo says

Specialty Insignia (see Table 6-2 for list) (see note): centered 1/2 inch above the left breast pocket. If
aviation badge is worn, the specialty insignia will be centered 1/2 inch below the aviation badge. Either miniature or regular size badges may be worn. Only one specialty insignia may be worn.

NOTE: The CAP aviation badge and one additional CAP badge for a maximum of two badges, may be worn.

Seems kind of odd that they specifically spell out that you can only wear one specialty insignia on the aviator but don't make the same specific restriction on the AF style service uniforms.  It even says no more than 2 badges are worn on the left side above ribbons.

For BDUs it says:

Specialty Insignia (Chaplain, Legal, Medical, EMT, Ground Team): centered 1/2-inch above
the cloth "Civil Air Patrol" tape worn over the left breast pocket of BDU, field uniform and BDU or dark blue field jacket, 1/2 inch below aviation badge. EXCEPTION: chaplain insignia is worn 1/2 inch above the aviation badge.

US Military Badges: On the BDU as prescribed by the US Air Force

The USAF prescribes that you can wear two AF Occupational Badges on your BDUs.

We (CAP) are allowed one specialty badge and one aviation badge, no matter where its worn, and the AF Occupation badges are considered a specialty badge.

Again, only appears, by 39-1 to apply to the aviator uniform.

The only exception is if you choose to wear a set of military wings over CAP wings, it look ridiculous, but it is allowed, in which case you'd have to forgo the GT/AFO badges in total.

"US Military Aviation Badge (Awarded in writing by competent authority.) Centered 1/2 inch above the pocket or ribbons on the left breast. CAP aviation badges are worn 1/2 inch above military badges.

[Flying Pig]

I would not say it looks ridiculous.  Maybe to you.  I have known many members who do.  Enlisted Military Aircrew with CAP Pilot Wings.  Even gold Marine Corps Parachute Wings with CAP Pilot/Observer badges.  I knew several Forward Air Controllers in the Marines who had pilot wings and gold parachute wings.  I think it looks sharp.  Ive seen Enlisted USMC Combat Aircrew Wings and CAP Observer Wings.  Ridiculous isnt the word that came to mind.  I also really like when I see military badges on uniforms.  I think it goes a long way for our program to show the types of people we can recruit.  Especially when we have military aviators.  Sorry, but I would give their military wings a lot more weight over the same wings a Private Pilot can wear after completing a Form 5. Maybe those of you who dont have them dont agree, but I have had several conversations started after a military member noticed I was wearing USMC ribbons.

[lordmonar]

It is in the regulation....if you choose to interpet it that way.  

The reg says a total of four, two above the pocket.  But in the table it implies that they mean one speciatly badge and one set of wings.

But the regulation is not very clear.

So.....it is wrong according to National....but not so wrong to get your pants into a wad about it.

[Eclipse]

Rather than get into more reg-quoting mania, use search, we hashed this at length earlier in the year.

Yes - 39-1 is inconsistent.  Also, water is wet, fire is hot.

We argued for a while, then several of us consulted NHQ and the above was their answer, including the notes about EMT badges.

Accept it or don't, but you won't find a concrete answer in the texts.

[Stonewall]

What?  I can't wear this? 

[Eclipse]

Awesome.

[RiverAux]

Get one of those commander badges on the pocket and you'll be all set. 

[Hawk200]

What?  I can't wear this?  ....

You forgot to add the smiley, Kirt....

[winterg]

What?  I can't wear this? 

Freaking Awesome! LOL

[Flying Pig]

What?  I can't wear this?  ....

You forgot to add the smiley, Kirt....

But he's serious.

[Trung Si Ma]

What?  I can't wear this? 

Only if you upgrade the five jump chump wings 

Long time ago, we wore what we had in the military.  I still have a BDU shirt in the closet with the CIB, Master O wings, and Master Para above the CAP tape and the "Dope on a rope" wings with the master Ground Team Badge on the pocket flap.  Add in the commo badge, ES Patch, Squadron Patch, Wing Patch, and the Aerial Radiological Monitoring Patch and it's quite colorful.  I also have a picture with me wearing it while doing Project X at NSC. 

When I had the Fayetteville Composite Squadron (now MER-NC-007), we had more people with jump wings and CIB/CFMB/EIB/EFMB on their BDU's than we had with CAP badges on them.  Of course, that was before the plethora of new badges came out for the "I've never earned anything in my life" crowd.

Wear the golf shirt, its easier.

[Flying Pig]

What?  I can't wear this? 

Only if you upgrade the five jump chump wings 

Long time ago, we wore what we had in the military.  I still have a BDU shirt in the closet with the CIB, Master O wings, and Master Para above the CAP tape and the "Dope on a rope" wings with the master Ground Team Badge on the pocket flap.  Add in the commo badge, ES Patch, Squadron Patch, Wing Patch, and the Aerial Radiological Monitoring Patch and it's quite colorful.  I also have a picture with me wearing it while doing Project X at NSC. 

When I had the Fayetteville Composite Squadron (now MER-NC-007), we had more people with jump wings and CIB/CFMB/EIB/EFMB on their BDU's than we had with CAP badges on them.  Of course, that was before the plethora of new badges came out for the "I've never earned anything in my life" crowd.

Wear the golf shirt, its easier.

Man....thats a must post photo.  Gotta see it!

[Trung Si Ma]

Man....thats a must post photo.  Gotta see it!

I'm TDY at Benning right now, but will look for it when I get home next week.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

When I had the Fayetteville Composite Squadron (now MER-NC-007), we had more people with jump wings and CIB/CFMB/EIB/EFMB on their BDU's than we had with CAP badges on them.  Of course, that was before the plethora of new badges came out for the "I've never earned anything in my life" crowd.

I had to laugh when I read this. But it brings up something that I think was touched on here, and doesn't make sense.

Why does a CAP aeronautical rating take precedence over a MILITARY aeronautical rating? No CAP decoration takes precedence over a military one, so why should an Air Force pilot stack his CAP pilot's wings OVER his Air Force wings? I call Bravo Sierra on that.

Someone care to riddle me that one?

[Hawk200]

.... But it brings up something that I think was touched on here, and doesn't make sense.

Why does a CAP aeronautical rating take precedence over a MILITARY aeronautical rating? No CAP decoration takes precedence over a military one, so why should an Air Force pilot stack his CAP pilot's wings OVER his Air Force wings? I call Bravo Sierra on that.

Someone care to riddle me that one?

The arrangement is similar to the Air Force policy on other military branch wings. On an Air Force uniform, wings from another branch of service would go below any set of Air Force wings. CAP is treating Air Force wings as "other branch" badges, and mandating them below CAP ones.

I don't think it makes sense either.  But how do you arrange it for all the aviation badges? Could get a little wierd: "Air Force aviation badges will be worn above CAP aviation badges, unless it's a Tuesday, and you're wearing a Navy badge, then....."

How to solve it? I think it would be appropriate for Air Force wings to be over other branches, then CAP wings. Just a thought, but it seems to make sense. Not sure how many people would agree. Yea or nay, anyone?

[Major Carrales]

Why does a CAP aeronautical rating take precedence over a MILITARY aeronautical rating? No CAP decoration takes precedence over a military one, so why should an Air Force pilot stack his CAP pilot's wings OVER his Air Force wings? I call Bravo Sierra on that.

Someone care to riddle me that one?

I would say because it is a CAP uniform, thus, a CAP badge as operational precedence. 

CAP Officers in CAP Uniforms with US military wings will likely not be flying US Military aircraft, but they will be in CAP aircraft.  Thus, a set of USAF wings has no operational significance on a CAP uniform.  Its purpose is more to display respect to that CAP Officers US Military service.

I would go as far as to say that we are pretty lucky to be able to wear any US Military badges on CAP uniforms.   Actually, if it were up to me (and it's not) only CAP badges and patches would be allowed on CAP field uniforms.   I, however, would probably (again, if in charge) continue to allow them as an hommage.

[jb512]

There is nothing ridiculous about wearing two sets of wings.  I do, and I think it looks just fine.  There are a couple of prior Navy guys here who wear their AF and Navy wings on both their blues and their flight suit nametag and nobody talks trash to them.

[Stonewall]

Only if you upgrade the five jump chump wings 

Hey now.  Those are 12 jump-chump wings.  In addition to jump school, I spent time in 3 different RIP classes (3-92, 5-92 and 6-92) after being hurt in my first class.  I got 3 jumps in one class and 2 in the other 2 classes.  Other than that, yeah, I got nuthin.

[Hawk200]

There is nothing ridiculous about wearing two sets of wings.  I do, and I think it looks just fine.  There are a couple of prior Navy guys here who wear their AF and Navy wings on both their blues and their flight suit nametag and nobody talks trash to them.

I don't think anyone said it looked ridiculous. Someone thinks that Air Force wings going below CAP is BS, but I don't see anything about it being ridiculous.

Personally, I'd love to have a flightsuit nametag with two sets of wings. Once I get home, hoping to "restart" my observer training.

I must say it was funny when my SI first started my progression, and one day he asked if I knew what "sterile cockpit" meant. I told him. He look surprised, and asked if I'd flown before. I told him that it was just with CAP. We compared notes, and there's actually a few similarities, even though CAP aircrew training isn't nearly as structured (which I think it ought to be more so). I've carried CAP stuff over to the Army side, and vice versa.

[Stonewall]

But he's serious.

I missed a few posts.  But just to clarify, no, I wasn't serious.  I know you know, Robert, but others are probably freaking out right now thinking I actually wear this.

I should fool around and make a set with Airborne, Air Assault, Security Forces, Master Ground Team Badge, EMT and Observer.  I have all of them in white on ultramarine. 

[SJFedor]

I should fool around and make a set with Airborne, Air Assault, Security Forces, Master Ground Team Badge, EMT and Observer.  I have all of them in white on ultramarine. 

Doooooo it!!!! 

[Hawk200]

I should fool around and make a set with Airborne, Air Assault, Security Forces, Master Ground Team Badge, EMT and Observer. 

(As a heads up, I know you're joking.)

Hmmm, let's see, how would you do it? From top down, I'd say Observer, Airborne, Air Assault over the tape. Security Forces (to the right, of course), and Ground Team on the pocket flap. Stick the EMT right in the middle of the pocket like some of the PJ's and CCT's do. 

Would be interesting. Wear it in sometime when there are no cadets around, and watch the jaws drop. Definitely, post a picture.

[winterg]

But he's serious.

I missed a few posts.  But just to clarify, no, I wasn't serious.  I know you know, Robert, but others are probably freaking out right now thinking I actually wear this.

I should fool around and make a set with Airborne, Air Assault, Security Forces, Master Ground Team Badge, EMT and Observer.  I have all of them in white on ultramarine. 

Don't forget some foreign jump wings on the right pocket flap! 

[Hawk200]

Don't forget some foreign jump wings on the right pocket flap! 

Nah, foreign jump wings go over the nametag. Take that CC job, and stick that command badge on top over them, you'll be set.

[Stonewall]

When I had the Fayetteville Composite Squadron (now MER-NC-007), we had more people with jump wings and CIB/CFMB/EIB/EFMB on their BDU's than we had with CAP badges on them.  Of course, that was before the plethora of new badges came out for the "I've never earned anything in my life" crowd.

Mount Vernon Composite Squadron (MER-DC-045) was the same thing in the '90s.  We had at least 7 people wearing jump wings (senior and master too), a CIB/EIB or 2, a Ranger Tab, an SF tab and lots and lots of other Army badges.  That's what happens when a large majority of your seniors work at the Pentagon, Ft. Belvoir, Ft. Myer, Bolling AFB, DIA, CIA, NRO; not to mention all the former military folks who stayed in the AO after getting out.

[Trung Si Ma]

Don't forget some foreign jump wings on the right pocket flap! 

Nah, foreign jump wings go over the nametag. Take that CC job, and stick that command badge on top over them, you'll be set.

He'd be truly stacked 

Right side would need some really neat foreign jump wings - maybe Thai (http://www.rangerjoes.com/foreign-jump-wings-thailand-p-1316.html) then the CC badge with the Pluto Patch above them ...

Hey Kirt - I'm at Benning, want me to go by Ranger Joe's and get you a set?

Don

[Stonewall]

Right side would need some really neat foreign jump wings - maybe Thai (http://www.rangerjoes.com/foreign-jump-wings-thailand-p-1316.html) then the CC badge with the Pluto Patch above them ...

Hey Kirt - I'm at Benning, want me to go by Ranger Joe's and get you a set?

Sure, but I'd have to stop by Thailand and earn them.  Ironically enough, I have almost talked my boss into letting me accompany our Spa director to Thailand where she'll be the key note speaker at an international spa conference.  I told them I have been there before and she definitely needs personal protection... 

[jb512]

There is nothing ridiculous about wearing two sets of wings.  I do, and I think it looks just fine.  There are a couple of prior Navy guys here who wear their AF and Navy wings on both their blues and their flight suit nametag and nobody talks trash to them.

I don't think anyone said it looked ridiculous. Someone thinks that Air Force wings going below CAP is BS, but I don't see anything about it being ridiculous.

Personally, I'd love to have a flightsuit nametag with two sets of wings. Once I get home, hoping to "restart" my observer training.

I must say it was funny when my SI first started my progression, and one day he asked if I knew what "sterile cockpit" meant. I told him. He look surprised, and asked if I'd flown before. I told him that it was just with CAP. We compared notes, and there's actually a few similarities, even though CAP aircrew training isn't nearly as structured (which I think it ought to be more so). I've carried CAP stuff over to the Army side, and vice versa.

It was mentioned above about RM and CAP wings worn together, but to each his own.  I'm kinda proud of both.

I just ordered my CAP flightsuit nametag with both sets of wings on it and I'm anxious to see how it turns out.  It'll get some double-takes, I'm sure.  I agree that after going through AF aircrew training, CAP is lacking in a few areas.  It gives you the basics but doesn't really prepare you to jump in the right seat and be as proficient as you should be.

[Hawk200]

It was mentioned above about RM and CAP wings worn together, but to each his own.  I'm kinda proud of both.

I've seen CAP folks that utterly hate it when someone prior military comes in. I don't get it. Ironically, in the military, people read your ribbon rack and badges, and have an idea of what you've done. For some reason, some (not all, or even most) folks in CAP think that if they don't know what your ribbons are, then the accomplishments are completely meaningless.

When i first rejoined, I wore blues one time to a wing function. I just wore the rack off my last set of AF blues since I hadn't gotten any CAP ribbons yet. Had a cadet snicker at my ribbon rack, remarking that he "had more than me". I raised an eyebrow, replied "Really? We'll see".

The next function was hosted at our unit, and I wore blues with both military and CAP ribbons. The look on his face was priceless. Another cadet asked me how I got so many. Since the one that asked wasn't at the previous function, I knew where the question was actually coming from.

I just ordered my CAP flightsuit nametag with both sets of wings on it and I'm anxious to see how it turns out.  It'll get some double-takes, I'm sure.  I agree that after going through AF aircrew training, CAP is lacking in a few areas.  It gives you the basics but doesn't really prepare you to jump in the right seat and be as proficient as you should be.

I just did the same thing. Don't have my observer wings as of yet, so I won't be able to wear them immediately.

Don't really know what your aircrew training entails, I'm helicopter aircrew. We'd probably have to compare notes sometime to determine that. There are similarities between CAP and Army Aircrew, but there are differences, too. I think CAP could benefit from from some of the Army's more structured aircrew progression, but not too hardcore. Too much, and people wouldn't stick with it. Which would result in fewer qualified aircrews, and a possible inability to meet our missions.

But back to the original topic, it'll be kinda nice to have two sets of wings. Always wanted to crew in more than one place, and it's finally happening for me.

[davedove]

But he's serious.

I missed a few posts.  But just to clarify, no, I wasn't serious.  I know you know, Robert, but others are probably freaking out right now thinking I actually wear this.

I should fool around and make a set with Airborne, Air Assault, Security Forces, Master Ground Team Badge, EMT and Observer.  I have all of them in white on ultramarine. 

The problem is someone will use that picture as justification for wearing a similar setup.

"But I saw a picture on CAP Talk where this guy Stonewall was wearing it that way."

[Hawk200]

But he's serious.

I missed a few posts.  But just to clarify, no, I wasn't serious.  I know you know, Robert, but others are probably freaking out right now thinking I actually wear this.

I should fool around and make a set with Airborne, Air Assault, Security Forces, Master Ground Team Badge, EMT and Observer.  I have all of them in white on ultramarine. 

The problem is someone will use that picture as justification for wearing a similar setup.

"But I saw a picture on CAP Talk where this guy Stonewall was wearing it that way."

Easy fix: Watermark the photo with something to the effect of "This is not an authorized uniform configuration. Consult CAPM 39-1 for proper uniform wear. Or, wait until BDU's phase out to post the photo.

Ten to one, anyone that tries to pull that "I saw a picture of...." wouldn't manage to make it fly. It wouldn't surprise me if every squadron had a couple of CAP Talk members here, too.

[swamprat86]

Those of us that have the badges to pull it off should all do this and take a picture.  It will be like our own little "Where's Waldo"-type thing.

[Hawk200]

Those of us that have the badges to pull it off should all do this and take a picture.  It will be like our own little "Where's Waldo"-type thing.

Maybe we could make a "This is completely unauthorized!" or "What NOT to do!" uniform thread, with a few rules to it, of course. Thoughts?

[Trung Si Ma]

Instead of Fantasy Island, we can call it Fantasy Stacks!

[jb512]

It was mentioned above about RM and CAP wings worn together, but to each his own.  I'm kinda proud of both.

I've seen CAP folks that utterly hate it when someone prior military comes in. I don't get it. Ironically, in the military, people read your ribbon rack and badges, and have an idea of what you've done. For some reason, some (not all, or even most) folks in CAP think that if they don't know what your ribbons are, then the accomplishments are completely meaningless.

I haven't seen that experience, but I can see how it would happen by some of the posts on here.  A few tend to treat this like the scouts rather than a military organization.  From experience it seems like units near military bases lean more toward the military than units with no influence.

When i first rejoined, I wore blues one time to a wing function. I just wore the rack off my last set of AF blues since I hadn't gotten any CAP ribbons yet. Had a cadet snicker at my ribbon rack, remarking that he "had more than me". I raised an eyebrow, replied "Really? We'll see".

The next function was hosted at our unit, and I wore blues with both military and CAP ribbons. The look on his face was priceless. Another cadet asked me how I got so many. Since the one that asked wasn't at the previous function, I knew where the question was actually coming from.

I just ordered my CAP flightsuit nametag with both sets of wings on it and I'm anxious to see how it turns out.  It'll get some double-takes, I'm sure.  I agree that after going through AF aircrew training, CAP is lacking in a few areas.  It gives you the basics but doesn't really prepare you to jump in the right seat and be as proficient as you should be.

I just did the same thing. Don't have my observer wings as of yet, so I won't be able to wear them immediately.

Don't really know what your aircrew training entails, I'm helicopter aircrew. We'd probably have to compare notes sometime to determine that. There are similarities between CAP and Army Aircrew, but there are differences, too. I think CAP could benefit from from some of the Army's more structured aircrew progression, but not too hardcore. Too much, and people wouldn't stick with it. Which would result in fewer qualified aircrews, and a possible inability to meet our missions.

I'm sure that our training is very similar.  Here we are taught a lot about the specific aircraft systems, publications and technical orders, and to know the workings inside and out.  We do much of the preflight and operate most of the airframe systems including APUs and ATMs, do weight and balance, etc.  While CAP doesn't need to get that specific, more should be taught to MOs than we currently have.

But back to the original topic, it'll be kinda nice to have two sets of wings. Always wanted to crew in more than one place, and it's finally happening for me.

Me too.  When I rejoined CAP as a senior I wanted more interaction as an aircrew member and there just wasn't enough for someone who was not a pilot.  That eventually lead me to join the AF and I love it.  I'm looking forward to flying with CAP again soon where I can share what I've learned and better relate to the pilots so they don't just consider me dead weight.