CAP Height/Weight Standards for Uniform wear and BMI

[RiverAux]

No, I'm suggesting that we do what we've agreed to. 

I am very open to using alternative methods, but unless the SoW is changed, we don't have that option. 

[Nick]

You're seriously suggesting making CAP uniform standards tighter than the military which now uses PT testing instead of height / weight?

Um...no.

No, what he's saying is that there is no longer an AF height/weight standard as it applies to uniform wear.  So, for us to stay in line with AF grooming and uniform standards (AFI 36-2903), there would no longer be a weight standard.

[Eclipse]

You're seriously suggesting making CAP uniform standards tighter than the military which now uses PT testing instead of height / weight?

Um...no.

No, what he's saying is that there is no longer an AF height/weight standard as it applies to uniform wear.  So, for us to stay in line with AF grooming and uniform standards (AFI 36-2903), there would no longer be a weight standard.

See one click before yours, that's not what he is saying.

[RiverAux]

There is a height-weight standard as it applies to new recruits into the AF.  I'm personally not sure it is actually fair to make CAP (and our, ahem, "seasoned" members) follow it.  So, I guess what I'm saying is that either 39-1 needs to be changed to reflect the current AF chart (which is all there is that I'm aware of), or the SoW needs to be re-written to allow some other method of judging this issue. 

Either way, we can't stick with what we have. 

[Eclipse]

Either way, we can't stick with what we have.

...because...

[RiverAux]

Because we've agreed to abide by the AF + 10%, which we are not doing and the one thing we know is that the 39-1 chart does not represent the current AF height/weight standard. 

Therefore, we can't stay the same.  Either 39-1 adopts the new AF chart or the SoW changes to require us to use something else.

[Eclipse]

Therefore, we can't stay the same. 

I'll bet we can...

[capchiro]

When I joined the Army at 21, I was 6 pounds underweight. (Fortunately we had the unpleasantness going on in Viet Nam, so it wasn't a deal breaker (Lucky me)).  Now at 62 I am several/many pounds over the weight limit.  I am trying to pattern my life after Curtis LeMay.  I haven't picked up the cigar yet, but we both enjoy a good meal.  Too bad they didn't throw him out for the fat boy program.  Think how much we would have saved on that whole SAC silliness.  By the way, medical norms/standards change on a regular basis.  Thank God I didn't give up butter and eggs 25 years ago at AMA recommendations.  Who knew butter was better than margarine?  All of us farm boys from Wisconsin, that's who.  I don't smoke or drink and I have given over 33 years to CAP alone.  I am not going to apologize for my weight.  I wear the appropriate uniform proudly.  (Although I secretly miss the Smurf suit (it was comfortable for flying in Florida in the summer)).

[Nick]

Therefore, we can't stay the same. 

I'll bet we can...

Dude, I can see where you got 6000 posts here ... with these quick one-liner zingers of yours, you'd make a killing writing billboard ads.

Okay fine, so that's not what he's saying.  It's what I'm saying.  There is no longer an Air Force height/weight standard as it applies to uniform wear.  AFI 36-2903 allows commanders to refer members for remedial physical fitness if they look like a bag of sloppy (insert analogous whatever), and that's all you will see about weight and physical fitness (except the PT uniform) in the uniform manual.  So, with that taken into consideration, if CAPM 39-1 Chapter 2 = AFI 36-2903 + AF-approved deviations, then we either 1) need AF approval to continue using the chart we have, 2) secure AF approval for a new chart, or 3) eliminate the chart.

[Eclipse]

Therefore, we can't stay the same. 

I'll bet we can...

Dude, I can see where you got 6000 posts here ... with these quick one-liner zingers of yours, you'd make a killing writing billboard ads.

Okay fine, so that's not what he's saying.  It's what I'm saying.  There is no longer an Air Force height/weight standard as it applies to uniform wear.  AFI 36-2903 allows commanders to refer members for remedial physical fitness if they look like a bag of sloppy (insert analogous whatever), and that's all you will see about weight and physical fitness (except the PT uniform) in the uniform manual.  So, with that taken into consideration, if CAPM 39-1 Chapter 2 = AFI 36-2903 + AF-approved deviations, then we either 1) need AF approval to continue using the chart we have, 2) secure AF approval for a new chart, or 3) eliminate the chart.

What I'm saying is no one cares.

but thanks for keeping this on a contextual level and not making this personal...

[Hawk200]

...1) need AF approval to continue using the chart we have, 2) secure AF approval for a new chart, or 3) eliminate the chart.

I would agree. I get a kick out of "We follow all rules until they change!", followed by "We'll do what we want!".

We need to consult with the AF on this, soon. I'd say follow what we have until such time as the Air Force makes a decision.

[Eclipse]

and for the record its 6,170, including this one...

[Eclipse]

We need to consult with the AF on this, soon.

...because...




(6,171)

[Hawk200]

We need to consult with the AF on this, soon.

...because...

Don't worry about. You don't care about the answer.

[bosshawk]

Now, troops, lets all take in a big breath: hold it and wait for 39-1 to be changed.

[Cecil DP]

Now, troops, lets all take in a big breath: hold it and wait for 39-1 to be changed.

It's stated in an earlierr post that National states that ICL's will be the rule for the future.

[Eclipse]

Now, troops, lets all take in a big breath: hold it and wait for 39-1 to be changed.

It's stated in an earlierr post that National states that ICL's will be the rule for the future.

Now that I'd like to see from an official source.  I agree that's the precedent they have set, and this nonsense about expiring ICL's, etc., is a waste of typing, but I don't hink I've ever seen anyone from NHQ offcially say they are going to manage with ICL's.

[Gunner C]

When I joined the Army at 21, I was 6 pounds underweight. (Fortunately we had the unpleasantness going on in Viet Nam, so it wasn't a deal breaker (Lucky me)).  Now at 62 I am several/many pounds over the weight limit.  I am trying to pattern my life after Curtis LeMay.  I haven't picked up the cigar yet, but we both enjoy a good meal.  Too bad they didn't throw him out for the fat boy program. 

Curt "Bombs Away" LeMay has been rehabilitated by the AF.  He's no longer a fat boy.

Before:


After:


We don't want any fat boys sullying the "slim, trim" image of our parent service.  Perhaps they can do that for CAP - just have doctored photos of all CAP members.  All you have to do is wait for each of us to die. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

This, from earlier in the thread, got my attention...

The impression I got from reading 39-1 was that the people who wrote it ( was it written at AF direction or was it written by CAP folk who THOUGHT they were writing what the AF wanted?) wanted us CAP people not to bring discredit upon the AF by being *fat* and  then being associated with them.

And that's a problem because of what? It's the Air Force's uniform. We have the privilege to wear it, not the right. If you can't wear the uniform, CAP has other options... albeit mandated in the form of now-expired ICLs. (For NHQ to say uniform policy would be in the form of ICLs is to totally go against its own policy. Do as they say, not as they do, I guess... then they wonder why there's so much rancor. Core values, folks, core values.)

Rather rude of them when you stop to think about it. We are civilian volunteers, giving up lots of our own free time to help the AF do its job. We are here to help them. The AF should be happy to have us helping out, and should not be trying to hide their association with us simply because some of us are *fat*. 

Nope, not rude. If you're overweight and can't wear the uniform, there are other non-military combinations (grays, TPU, blue BDU).

Frankly, if the Air Force is paying for the 100LL, do they want increased fuel burn (and therefore, more money spent) because there's 1200 pounds in the two front seats alone? Hardly. And imagine that takeoff roll, to boot. Man, it's tight in a 172 cockpit anyway, let alone with someone in either seat who's 22 inches wide.

OK, OK, sorry. That was getting a little out of hand. Fact is, the Air Force recognizes there are people with all sorts of body types, infirmities, handicaps, whatever, who join CAP. And though the Air Force authorizes wear of its uniforms, Ma Blue restricts that privilege only to people who are in the shape to wear it. Some folks can't help but gain weight. It could be a genetic or hormonal thing, or whatever. And again, CAP members in that boat have other uniforms they can wear to perform CAP duties — it's just not Ma Blue's, and that's just fine. It's their volunteer services that counts, and should count to those members, not the chance to look like a self-styled military aviator.

Seems to me to be just one more example of how the military is failing to conform itself to modern American social values.

Actually, if society were a little more informed by military ethics and values, we would not have the crisis in integrity that American society faces today. We also wouldn't have so many angioplastys, heart attacks, broken homes, lack of self-respect and personal pride, or Jerry Springer, but I digress.

[PHall]

When I joined the Army at 21, I was 6 pounds underweight. (Fortunately we had the unpleasantness going on in Viet Nam, so it wasn't a deal breaker (Lucky me)).  Now at 62 I am several/many pounds over the weight limit.  I am trying to pattern my life after Curtis LeMay.  I haven't picked up the cigar yet, but we both enjoy a good meal.  Too bad they didn't throw him out for the fat boy program. 

Curt "Bombs Away" LeMay has been rehabilitated by the AF.  He's no longer a fat boy.

Before:


After:


We don't want any fat boys sullying the "slim, trim" image of our parent service.  Perhaps they can do that for CAP - just have doctored photos of all CAP members.  All you have to do is wait for each of us to die. 

Take a look at some of the other Chief of Staff portraits, more then a few had "adjustments", it wasn't just for Lemay.