Military Badges

[Sgt. Savage]

Only if you can do it every day for a month. They call it the ARCOM

[Sgt. Savage]

BTW,

Don't let the rack fool you. Three of those are CAP, Three of those were just for being there, two were for going there, one for helping a bunch of people while I was there,  two because my unit was there with me, and one for leaving there. After doing the math, the only one I worked for was the ARCOM.

Like I always say, the badge doesn't make the man, it's the experience that earned it that makes the man.

[Stonewall]

Like I always say, the badge doesn't make the man, it's the experience that earned it that makes the man.

Concur.

The only ribbons I had to work for/earn, are the Army Achievement and Joint Comm.  Even a couple of the AAMs are questionable.

[Sgt. Savage]

Funny how it all seemed so important when I was a buck private. I'd trade it all to get some of those guys back.

[DNall]

Absolutely, and that's what I said on the first page here.

Air Force personnel may wear Army patches, i.e. unit patches and tabs only while assigned to Army units, such as TACPs.  Once they leave that unit/duty and return to an Air Force unit, those patches have to come off, including combat patches.

I just didn't include things like pathfinder badges, air assault, etc.  However, pretty much the only badges not authorized for wear on the AF uniform outside of being assigned to an Army unit are the Pathfinder and Air Assault badge. 

Don't quote me on this, cause I'm not the expert, Ms. Parker is, but I believe CIB/CAB/CMB would be in that newly not auth category, as much as I may disagree with it. Basically review the AF reg & if it looks like you could wear it if you were inter-service tranfering to the AF then you should also be able to wear it on CAP in the same spots, if not then don't do it & ask for clarification.

EDIT:  I just referenced the AFI for USAF uniforms and it does [now] speficy that the CAB and CIB may only be worn while assigned to other services.

That being said, they don't mention, or I haven't gotten that far yet, whether or not if you're prior service.  Specifically with the CIB/CAB/CMB.  All the people I saw that wore them were prior Army.  I've also seen AF personnel volunteer to support the Army in OEF/OIF get a "ceremonial CAB" pinned on for their support.  I'm wondering if it's those guys they're refering to that can only wear them while assigned to that service.  Either way, for CAP, the CIB/CMB are still authorized.

No I think they're mostly talking about TACP, WTX units, AFSOC, etc. If it isn't in your file you better not be wearing it is all I'd say to them. As far as I can tell, there is no regard to prior service. Other service badges are treated like foreign awards... you know like when you jump with brits & they (formally not ceremonially) award you their wings, but you can't wear them unless attached to one of their units or attending a state dinner at their embasy or something like that. That's my understanding of how the CIB, air assualt, etc are treated.

Not to make this more complicated, but some things are treated a little wierd in this conversion. For instance you can wear any service aeronautical rating, but if you transfered to AF they'd convert wings to the AF version even if you wouldn't be serving in that capacity. So we can wear Army wings even though you couldn't wear them in the AF cause they'd convert to AF wings, but you don't get to do that being prior & joining CAP.

Gist of this whole thing is call Susie Parker & what she says is law. If you don't like it then take it up with command to put a req thru to AF to broaden the rules.

[Former_C/LTC]

I'm actually disgusted by some of the posts given to this member.  I have been a member of CAP for over 34 years and the Air Force for over 20 years.  CAP has always been about 15 years behind on uniforms and badges.  To remind some of our membership we are the United States Air Force Auxiliary, therefore we should refer to AFI 36-2903 for guidance.  If the membership at large disagrees with my opinion here, ask yourself when was the last time CAPM 39-1 was updated?  How can we in good conscious deny our members the wear of any badges or other Armed Forces insignia, especially if these were awarded for service in combat?  

And speaking from painful experience, when the Air Force will go to ABU's this year and we contact National and ask when will we go to this uniform the answer will be "never, we will always wear BDU's".  Historical note:  When the AF went to BDU's I was told by National that we would never stop wearing the OD green uniforms.  

In summary, grow up people and recognize the awards given by competent military authority.

 

[SarDragon]

If the membership at large disagrees with my opinion here, ask yourself when was the last time CAPM 39-1 was updated?

Actually, the latest full edition is only two years old, still new in the CAP universe. How often does it get real, formal updates? That "a whole nother story".

[stillamarine]

I was just reminded that during my 2 years as a cadet, we wore greens lol.

As for my Gold Wings, I'll email Ms Parker about that.  I already know that my bubble is authorized.

[Stonewall]

f the membership at large disagrees with my opinion here, ask yourself when was the last time CAPM 39-1 was updated?  

Actually, CAPM 39-1 isn't all too far off.  It's not even 2 years old right now.

How can we in good conscious deny our members the wear of any badges or other Armed Forces insignia, especially if these were awarded for service in combat?  

Did anyone really deny anyone the right to wear their badges?  Hey, if it's a CAP reg it's a CAP reg.  Do you blow off any reg in the Air Force you disagree with? 

I think maybe one guy asked why people should be allowed to wear insignia/ribbons from other services, regardless of how they earned them.  He simply asked.  Although I wouldn't have asked such a question, that doesn't make him wrong.  No one on this thread has insulted anyone.  We're discussing regs.  Some of us don't agree with them, and that's cool.  But whether we like them or not, they're the regs.

And speaking from painful experience, when the Air Force will go to ABU's this year and we contact National and ask when will we go to this uniform the answer will be "never, we will always wear BDU's".  Historical note:  When the AF went to BDU's I was told by National that we would never stop wearing the OD green uniforms.  

Personally, I'm not going to contact NHQ about switching to the ABU.  I experienced the same "historical" process that you did.  I didn't care too much then and I don't care too much now.  BDUs or ABUs, I'll wear them both.  I don't really think anyone was debating that topic, but I guess we could if you'd like.

In summary, grow up people and recognize the awards given by competent military authority.

Grow up?  Is there someone in particular that you're speaking to?  I have to say, I think it has been a reasonable dialogue thus far.  A few disagreements but that's normal.  I think for the most part people here are grown up and recognize those who have been awarded medals and badges by competent military authority.

We're cool, right?  Just feel like I sensed a bit of hostility in your post.  But for all I know you could have been smiling with a beer in your hand.  If that's the case, give me one.

[DNall]

...we should refer to AFI 36-2903 for guidance.  If the membership at large disagrees with my opinion here, ask yourself when was the last time CAPM 39-1 was updated?  

How can we in good conscious deny our members the wear of any badges or other Armed Forces insignia, especially if these were awarded for service in combat?  

Those two statments are conflicting!!

2903 says NO rigger/pathfinder/AA/CIB/CAB/CMB/combat jump wings, almost no navy badges, etc. The Air Force is rather specific on this point. What they've said in the newest reg is either it can convert to an AF badge or you can't wear it. The only exception is if you are on perm duty & physicially serving with another branch than you can wear SOME stuff awrded by them, but when you return to the AF for 180days or more, even temporarily for a school but while still attached to the Army, then you MUST take the other stuff off.

Now, CAP is behind the times on that. 39-1 is written from the older AFI, in which you could wear other service badges if earned in the other service or on duty with them, and that it was perm. That's where that table in the back comes from. If they ever update 39-1, it will require them to dump that & de-authorize lots of other service badges. They should legally be required to do that now, but the AF hasn't called them on it.

In summary, grow up people and recognize the awards given by competent military authority.

I'm with ya, but the reg isn't. I'd be all for asking AF to auth broader badge & ribbon wear, but that's not my call, and what's authorized or not isn't up to CAP either.

[DNall]

As for my Gold Wings, I'll email Ms Parker about that.  I already know that my bubble is authorized.

Navy jump wings? Really don't know on that. It may be they'd convert to Army/AF jump wings or it may be covered as other service aeronautical rating in which place it's good to go.

[stillamarine]

As for my Gold Wings, I'll email Ms Parker about that.  I already know that my bubble is authorized.

Navy jump wings? Really don't know on that. It may be they'd convert to Army/AF jump wings or it may be covered as other service aeronautical rating in which place it's good to go.

If they do revert to the AF wings then I am going to assume it would be the AF Senior Jump Wings with the star, seeing as that is basically what the Gold Wings are for the Navy and Marine Corps.

[Sgt. Savage]

As for my Gold Wings, I'll email Ms Parker about that.  I already know that my bubble is authorized.

Navy jump wings? Really don't know on that. It may be they'd convert to Army/AF jump wings or it may be covered as other service aeronautical rating in which place it's good to go.

If they do revert to the AF wings then I am going to assume it would be the AF Senior Jump Wings with the star, seeing as that is basically what the Gold Wings are for the Navy and Marine Corps.

Not exactly. My understanding is, and may be wrong, that to qualify for Navy/Marine jump wings, you only need to satisfy 5 additional jumps. That isn't the same as a senior parachutist, who must participated in a minimum of 30 jumps to include 15 jumps with combat equipment; two night jumps, one of which is as jumpmaster of a stick; two mass tactical jumps which culminate in an airborne assault problem; graduated from the Jumpmaster Course; and served on jump status with an airborne unit or other organization authorized parachutists for a total of at least 24 months.

I'm sure that basic parachutist wing could be authorized in certain situations. Th AFI 11-402 states "Members may lose the right to wear the parachutist badge by refusing to jump or requesting removal from jump status with less than 18 months of jump duty." I would say that unless someone refused to jump they could wear the basic.

Jim

[stillamarine]

Your right that it only requires 5 additional, varying types of jumps. BUT it is classified as the senior class wings. Now if the AF or Army require me to have 30 jumps to qualify for there lil star on there lead sled, well I got that to....times about 7 or 8.

[Sgt. Savage]

[darn], Tim. You must be 4" shorter for it too! I got washed up at 62 fixed and rotary. I AM 1" shorter than when I enlisted and I'm not that old.

It takes 65 for masert Parachutist with some other qualifications:

Participated in 65 jumps to include 25 jumps with combat equipment; four night jumps, one of which is as a jumpmaster of a stick; five mass tactical jumps which culminate in an airborne assault problem with a unit equivalent to a battalion or   larger, a separate company/battery, or organic staff of a regiment size or larger; graduated from the Jumpmaster Course; and served in jump status with an airborne unit or other organization authorized parachutists for a total of at least 36 months.

If you meet that then, you earned it.

I was three jumps short but, I only have three MASSTAC. My knees are pretty shot these days. Go figure.

[Rangersigo]

Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway?  When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB."  So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?

No hard push. Just trying to make sure that the CAB is included in authorized badges. Everything else was authorized prior to my joining this fine organization. Since many of our returning service men and women have been awarded the CAB (Combat Action Badge for those who aren't familiar) it seem it should be included as it paralels the CMB and CIB, both of which are already autorized.

JIm

SGT Savage - I served in 3rd Battalion for 8 years in total and have brought with me a variety of badges, some that I can wear and some that I cannot. 

My experience so far has been mixed, but in a nutshell: the cadets are intrigued by the experience and crave any knowledge of active military service and many are there to get a jumpstart on their military careers.  About half the seniors, mostly those who are prior service are pleased that someone has joined that can bring some additional skills to the organization.  Then the other half are scared poopless that they will be de-legitimized by someone with a little more experience than them - militarily.  I have actually been told by a sitting Group Commander that the best thing I can do is forget everything about being in the Army as it has no relation to CAP. 

I struggle everyday with my commitment based upon my short experience in CAP, but my hope is that when my sons are old enough to join it is an opportunity to share my service to my nation and set that example. 

Just a thought, I wonder if there would be enough support from former active military, rangers, etc to set up a group for us to communicate among another.  How many would support, many of these questions could be answered about prior service badges, PME, etc?

K

[LtCol White]

Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway?  When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB."  So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?

No hard push. Just trying to make sure that the CAB is included in authorized badges. Everything else was authorized prior to my joining this fine organization. Since many of our returning service men and women have been awarded the CAB (Combat Action Badge for those who aren't familiar) it seem it should be included as it paralels the CMB and CIB, both of which are already autorized.

JIm

SGT Savage - I served in 3rd Battalion for 8 years in total and have brought with me a variety of badges, some that I can wear and some that I cannot. 

My experience so far has been mixed, but in a nutshell: the cadets are intrigued by the experience and crave any knowledge of active military service and many are there to get a jumpstart on their military careers.  About half the seniors, mostly those who are prior service are pleased that someone has joined that can bring some additional skills to the organization.  Then the other half are scared poopless that they will be de-legitimized by someone with a little more experience than them - militarily.  I have actually been told by a sitting Group Commander that the best thing I can do is forget everything about being in the Army as it has no relation to CAP. 

I struggle everyday with my commitment based upon my short experience in CAP, but my hope is that when my sons are old enough to join it is an opportunity to share my service to my nation and set that example. 

Just a thought, I wonder if there would be enough support from former active military, rangers, etc to set up a group for us to communicate among another.  How many would support, many of these questions could be answered about prior service badges, PME, etc?

K

there are a couple things you can do. Start a forum on here and you can also use the NHQ conference call service (free) where you could set up monthly meetings to discuss issues. You can also create a Yahoo group as well.

[Former_C/LTC]

Let me be a little more specific, I did not mean to come across as antangonistic or upset at the lack of maturity I see throughout our organization.  I am a member for one reason and one reason only, I support the cadet program.  A majority of our cadets will go to some form of military(I know, not all) and we are doing a great disservice to them by not authorizing senior member officers to wear what they legitamatly earned from the Armed Forces.  AFI 36-2903 is a guide, pure and simple, a guide.  Since we are a volunteer corporation our members come from all the branches so the correct way to fix this situation is to take the big view and amend our CAPM 39-1.  The entire manual is still severly outdated in pictures and content.  Consider that all the Armed Forces issue new badges and ribbons every year, there needs to be a team at National to keep this important regulation current.

[jimmydeanno]

I am not trying to belittle your accomplishments in any way, but just a question out of curiosity...

Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway?  When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB."  So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?

While you should be proud of your accomplishments in the military, how does showing that you are/were an Army Ranger have any bearing on anything you do in CAP?

Again, I'm not trying to belittle your accomplishments, just curious as to your reasoning, and generate some discussion amongst the membership here. 

Because they are military awards and we are a military affiliated entity. BSA is not.

The BSA was just an example.  My point is...different organization with its own awards and decorations, why do people insist on being "allowed" to wear everything they've ever earned on their uniform?  Even the the military, there are things that don't cross branches...

Even on this website, you see the very frequent posts "CAP IS NOT THE AF."  Most people assume that when they look at a uniform, the things you have on that uniform are what you earned in THAT organization.  Wearing a Combat Infantry Badge on a CAP uniform, which is quite recognizable, at a glace implies that it was earned during service to CAP.  How well does that speak to the "non-combat" roles of CAP to the general public.

I can and do appreciate the sacrifices that our military members (past, present, and future) make(made) on a daily basis, but CAP is a completely different entity from DoD, with different missions, volunteer CIVILIAN organization.  

Why not allow them on the CAP distinctive uniforms?  You already have a large chunk of your membership wearing them anyway...

[jimmydeanno]

there needs to be a team at National to keep this important regulation current.

We could make CAPM 39-1 an RSS feed...

This only helps my point, either say in 39-1 refer to this for authorized military awards, or don't include them at all.  Why do we need to exhaust our funds and personnel resources to keep up with DoD changes?  Hire a whole team just to maintain one manual?