Aircrew Wings

[Panzerbjorn]

"pilot outranks Observer, regardless of level."

Hmm...let's all put money in the pool as to who said that.

Just as there is no precedence with the GTM badge, there's no precede with wing. 
You wear what you feel like wearing that you are qualified to wear.

I'll be happy enough to throw a few buckos at VG for the A/C basics, but I'm not going to bother
tracking flight hours for the upgrades.

Just to support what Eclipse said, when I train MOs, I make it very clear to them that they are in charge of the mission, not the pilot.  The pilot has the final say when it comes to aircraft and aircrew safety, but the MO is in command of the mission sortie.  I've known too many pilots who try to take on too many duties, and they just end up getting task saturated.  I was on one sortie as a MO many years ago with a pilot who would just not cooperate and decided to go off task because he didn't agree with the AOBD in where we should be looking.  I ended up aborting the sortie because the pilot just would not fall into line.  The pilot 'outranking' the MO is poppycock.

Anyway, pleasant slight sidetrack to the actual intent of the post and thread.  It's true that the pilot wings will always be PREFERRED to the MO wings to a pilot.  I may or may not have enough hours to qualify for Senior Observer wings, but I stopped logging my Observer hours after I earned my pilot wings.  It doesn't matter to me anymore.  Stars and wreaths on aircrew badges simply denote experience, not other qualifications like it does on the GTM or IC badges.

[PHall]

"pilot outranks Observer, regardless of level."

Hmm...let's all put money in the pool as to who said that.

Just as there is no precedence with the GTM badge, there's no precede with wing. 
You wear what you feel like wearing that you are qualified to wear.

I'll be happy enough to throw a few buckos at VG for the A/C basics, but I'm not going to bother
tracking flight hours for the upgrades.

Just to support what Eclipse said, when I train MOs, I make it very clear to them that they are in charge of the mission, not the pilot.  The pilot has the final say when it comes to aircraft and aircrew safety, but the MO is in command of the mission sortie.  I've known too many pilots who try to take on too many duties, and they just end up getting task saturated.  I was on one sortie as a MO many years ago with a pilot who would just not cooperate and decided to go off task because he didn't agree with the AOBD in where we should be looking.  I ended up aborting the sortie because the pilot just would not fall into line.  The pilot 'outranking' the MO is poppycock.

Anyway, pleasant slight sidetrack to the actual intent of the post and thread.  It's true that the pilot wings will always be PREFERRED to the MO wings to a pilot.  I may or may not have enough hours to qualify for Senior Observer wings, but I stopped logging my Observer hours after I earned my pilot wings.  It doesn't matter to me anymore.  Stars and wreaths on aircrew badges simply denote experience, not other qualifications like it does on the GTM or IC badges.

You "experts" that are saying that the MO is in charge of the mission might want to study up on CRM, Cockpit Resource Management, before you start making such bold and sweaping statements.
Because if you're up there having your little tantrums with the pilot, how much searching are you getting done?

The division of responcibility needs to be settled on the ground before you even walk out to the plane.
If you can't settle it in the briefing room you sure aren't going to do it in the plane.

[Walkman]

Not to sidetrack to thread too much, but I was always taught that the MO was MISSION Commander and the MP was AIRCRAFT commander. The MART only states the MO "MAY" be mission CC, so PHall is right about pre-sortie communications. I'm an MO trainee on paper, but my training has been so spread out that if I were to be able to finish my task sign-offs this weekend, there's no way I would try to insist on being mission CC.

(For the record, I plan on starting all over my MO tasks just so I can actually be competent on the job.)

[Eclipse]

You "experts" that are saying that the MO is in charge of the mission might want to study up on CRM, Cockpit Resource Management, before you start making such bold and sweaping (sic) statements.
Because if you're up there having your little tantrums with the pilot, how much searching are you getting done?

And you might want to review the curriculum,

What's interesting is that the practice is logical, efficient, and increases mission efficacy at no cost other then the pilot's
ego, which should be sufficiently charged already, you know, being a pilot.

Odd that the further West you go, the more you hear people whining about something which will likely be even more clearly codified in the next rev
of the ES curriculum.

There are no tantrums when adults are acting as such.

Everyone has their role, the Pilot's is flying the aircraft.  That's it.

[PHall]

You "experts" that are saying that the MO is in charge of the mission might want to study up on CRM, Cockpit Resource Management, before you start making such bold and sweaping (sic) statements.
Because if you're up there having your little tantrums with the pilot, how much searching are you getting done?

And you might want to review the curriculum,

What's interesting is that the practice is logical, efficient, and increases mission efficacy at no cost other then the pilot's
ego, which should be sufficiently charged already, you know, being a pilot.

Odd that the further West you go, the more you hear people whining about something which will likely be even more clearly codified in the next rev
of the ES curriculum.

There are no tantrums when adults are acting as such.

Everyone has their role, the Pilot's is flying the aircraft.  That's it.

I've witnessed airborne tantrums more then once. And if you looked at it, both sides were at fault at least 90% of the time.
Which is why I say you need to work out the "Rules of Engagement" on the ground before you even leave the briefing room.
No use in taking a battle of egos airborne if you don't have to. Plus the AOBD is available to either fix the egos or to replace the offending idiot.

[Eclipse]

Fair enough.

However if everyone was trained and operated consistently, there'd be no room for misunderstandings.

Before "attitude adjustment" I can't tell you how many times we had MOs acting as "co-pilot", pilots telling
MOs to "sit quietly and not touch anything", and aircrews briefing photo runs without the Scanners.

It still happens occasionally but much less frequently.

[Panzerbjorn]

"pilot outranks Observer, regardless of level."

Hmm...let's all put money in the pool as to who said that.

Just as there is no precedence with the GTM badge, there's no precede with wing. 
You wear what you feel like wearing that you are qualified to wear.

I'll be happy enough to throw a few buckos at VG for the A/C basics, but I'm not going to bother
tracking flight hours for the upgrades.

Just to support what Eclipse said, when I train MOs, I make it very clear to them that they are in charge of the mission, not the pilot.  The pilot has the final say when it comes to aircraft and aircrew safety, but the MO is in command of the mission sortie.  I've known too many pilots who try to take on too many duties, and they just end up getting task saturated.  I was on one sortie as a MO many years ago with a pilot who would just not cooperate and decided to go off task because he didn't agree with the AOBD in where we should be looking.  I ended up aborting the sortie because the pilot just would not fall into line.  The pilot 'outranking' the MO is poppycock.

Anyway, pleasant slight sidetrack to the actual intent of the post and thread.  It's true that the pilot wings will always be PREFERRED to the MO wings to a pilot.  I may or may not have enough hours to qualify for Senior Observer wings, but I stopped logging my Observer hours after I earned my pilot wings.  It doesn't matter to me anymore.  Stars and wreaths on aircrew badges simply denote experience, not other qualifications like it does on the GTM or IC badges.

You "experts" that are saying that the MO is in charge of the mission might want to study up on CRM, Cockpit Resource Management, before you start making such bold and sweaping statements.
Because if you're up there having your little tantrums with the pilot, how much searching are you getting done?

The division of responcibility needs to be settled on the ground before you even walk out to the plane.
If you can't settle it in the briefing room you sure aren't going to do it in the plane.

You may really want to get to know me better and my experience before you snort in derision and think I have nothing to contribute to the conversation.  IJS.

As it so happened, on the ground everything was planned out and was fine.  It wasn't until we were up in the air when the pilot decided he had his own agenda, and he didn't fly another sortie that SAREX.  There was no tantrum involved.  He wasn't going to go by the playbook, so I aborted us and we RTB'd instead of getting into an argument up in the air which would have solved nothing.  My point is that there are MOs who would have just sat there and let the pilot take over like that because either they're the pilot or they're higher ranking.

Many lessons have been learned both then and since then.  But the concept stays the same.  The MO is calling the shots when it's mission related.

[Eclipse]

I was on one sortie as a MO many years ago with a pilot who would just not cooperate and decided to go off task because he didn't agree with the AOBD in where we should be looking. 

I just caught that after a re-read.

You have to love the arrogance.

Planning spends time with intel, creates tasks, floats them through OSC, AOBD creates and briefs sorties, and then
after all that, a pilot "knows better" and just decides to "turn left", while the whole time the rest of the
ICS is assuming he's doing as he is told and moving on with the rest of the plans.

"No more sorties that day..." is where I would start with the disciplinary action and remedial training.

Disagreeing with the course of action is fine, to a point, but once you've been briefed and released, you
execute the plan, not just fly around "searchamyfyin'"

[Checotah]

I always taught MPs, MOs, & MS that the pilot was in charge until they reach the search area, then the MO directs things until leaving the search area.  The MP, of course, always had the last word when it came to safety and the feasability of what MO wants. 

The only group that would more commonly have issues with that were MP trainees who were retired airline captains who often played old tapes wherein they were always in charge.  Not always, of course, but a higher than average percentage than non-airline types.

[a2capt]

It's the pilots' airplane, it's the observers mission. Somewhere all that has to balance. They're all in it together.

[lordmonar]

Well....let's see what the task guide says.

P-2007 1-MAR-04

P-2007

DISCUSS MISSION OBSERVER DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES

CONDITIONS
You are a Mission Observer trainee and must discuss observer duties and responsibilities.

OBJECTIVES
Discuss Observer duties and responsibilities.

TRAINING AND EVALUATION

Training Outline
1. As a Mission Observer trainee, understanding your duties and responsibilities is essential. The mission observer has a key role in CAP missions, and has expanded duties that mainly pertain to assisting the mission pilot. This assistance may be in the planning phase, handling radio communications, assisting in navigation, and crew management (i.e., mission commander). The proficient observer makes it possible for the pilot to perform his duties with a greater degree of accuracy and safety by assuming these aspects of the workload.

2. The Observer's primary role while actually in a search area is that of scanner.

3. General duties and responsibilities include:

a. Depending on conditions, you may report with the mission pilot for briefing. Wear appropriate clothes for a mission.
b. Assist in planning the mission. The observer may act as mission commander for the sortie.
c. Assist in avoiding collisions and obstacles during taxiing.
d. Assist in setting up and operating aircraft and CAP radios.
e. Assist in setting up and operating aircraft navigational equipment (e.g., VORs and GPS).
f. Assist enforcing the sterile cockpit rules.
g. Maintain situational awareness at all times.
h. Assist in monitoring fuel status.
i. Monitor the electronic search devices aboard the aircraft and advise the pilot when making course corrections in response to ELT signals.
j. Keep mission base and/or high bird appraised of status.
k. Coordinate scanner assignments and ensure proper breaks for the scanners (including yourself). Monitor crew for fatigue and dehydration (ensure the crew drinks plenty of fluids).
l. Maintain a chronological flight log of all observations of note, including precise locations, sketches andany other noteworthy information.
m. Depending on conditions, report with the mission pilot for debriefing immediately upon return to mission base. The applicable portions on the reverse of CAPF 104 should be completed prior to debrief.
n. Keep track of assigned supplies and equipment.

4. Once team members have been briefed on the mission and accomplished the necessary planning, observers determine that all necessary equipment is aboard the airplane. Checklists help ensure that all essential equipment is included, and vary according to geographic location, climate, and terrain of the search area. Items on the observer's checklist should include CAP membership
and specialty qualification cards, current charts and maps of the search area, flashlights,notebook and pencils, binoculars, and survival gear (prohibited items, such as firearms, should be listed too, to ensure none is included). A camera may be included to assist in describing the location and condition of the search objective or survivors. Unnecessary items or personal belongings should be left behind. The mission observer also assists the pilot in ensuring that all equipment aboard the search aircraft is properly stowed.  An unsecured item can injure the crew or damage the aircraft in turbulence.

5. Once airborne, the observer provides navigation and communication assistance, allowing the pilot to precisely fly the aircraft with a greater degree of safety. The observer also assists in enforcing "sterile cockpit" rules when necessary. In flight, particularly the transit phase, the observer maintains situational awareness in order to help ensure crew safety.

6. The mission observer divides and assigns scanning responsibilities during her mission observer briefing, and ensures each scanner performs their assigned duty during flight. She monitors the duration of scanner activity, and enables the scanners to rest in order to minimize fatigue.

7. Observer Log. The observer must become proficient in using an in-flight navigational log. A complete chronological log should be maintained from take-off until landing, and should include all events and sightings.  Skill in maintaining the log requires training and experience. Remember, proficiency and confidence are gained through practice and application. It is important to log the geographical
location of the search aircraft at the time of all events and sightings (as a habit, always log the Hobbs time each time you make a report or record an event or sighting). This information is the basis of CAP Form 104, which is passed back to the incident commander and general staff after the debriefing and becomes a part of the total information that is the basis for his subsequent actions and reports. Good logs give the staff a better picture of how the mission is progressing.  If sketches or maps are made to compliment a sighting, note this and attach them to the log. The log and all maps and sketches will be attached to the CAPF 104.

While I will agree with you.....we should be teaching our crews that the Pilot is just a driver and the Observer is "in charge" of the search.  That is not how the task guide reads.

The Observer is a scanner who assists the pilot.  End of story....next argument.

[Garibaldi]

I was always taught that the MO was the person in charge of everything but flying the plane, like radios, navigation, looking out the window, in order to let the pilot do his "pilot s***". The pilot's sole responsibility was to pilot the aircraft.

[PHall]

I was always taught that the MO was the person in charge of everything but flying the plane, like radios, navigation, looking out the window, in order to let the pilot do his "pilot s***". The pilot's sole responsibility was to pilot the aircraft.

What does the Task Guide say? The task guide is what we're evaluated on. It is the standard we are taught to.
It is what you're evaluated against when you take a check ride.

[capmaj]

Where did the 'Aircrew Wings' topic go?   

[lordmonar]

We got our answer from KB....and now we are just doing random association. 

[Eclipse]

]
While I will agree with you.....we should be teaching our crews that the Pilot is just a driver and the Observer is "in charge" of the search.  That is not how the task guide reads.

It literally >is< how the task guide reads (twice).

"Training Outline
1. As a Mission Observer trainee, understanding your duties and responsibilities is essential. The mission observer has a key role in CAP missions, and has expanded duties that mainly pertain to assisting the mission pilot. This assistance may be in the planning phase, handling radio communications, assisting in navigation, and crew management (i.e., mission commander). The proficient observer makes it possible for the pilot to perform his duties with a greater degree of accuracy and safety by assuming these aspects of the workload."

"b. Assist in planning the mission. The observer may act as mission commander for the sortie."

]
The Observer is a scanner who assists the pilot.  End of story....next argument.

2. The Observer's primary role while actually in a search area is that of scanner.

You don't get to divide the sentence to make your point.

This reinforces the "Mission Commander" idea:

6. The mission observer divides and assigns scanning responsibilities during her mission observer briefing, and ensures each scanner performs their assigned duty during flight. She monitors the duration of scanner activity, and enables the scanners to rest in order to minimize fatigue.

The problem with even this text is it clearly doesn't even recognize that aircrews do much of anything but "look out the window" for stuff.
it doesn't even mention the DF equipment, and suggests a camera "might" be useful.  So another place where the curriculum is lacking as a practical guide to
operations, but the fact remains, even just based on good pilot practices and safety, that the pilot is a bus driver, nothing more, nothing less, and
the function of the mission itself is in the hands or other people in the aircraft.

[lordmonar]

Yep.....please note the "MAY" in that sentence.  And the first mention of the term "Mission Commander" is so buried in the SQTR that it is not clear (in my mind anyways) if the MO is always the Mission Commander of simply may be the mission commander.

Also look at the MP SQTR.....and the MO SQTR......both of them show that the MO is not a mandatory position.

So you can see where the disconnect is.

The SQTR needs to be completely re-written and the training standard for it changed to show with out a doubt that the PRIMARY DUTY of the MO is to be the Mission Commander.

[a2capt]

..and thats why I wrote it the way I did. They're all in it together. They've got to agree on who's doing what or the mission objective will suffer.

[GroundHawg]

The Aircrew Wings "should" be easier for cadets to earn than Observer Wings?

[lordmonar]

The Aircrew Wings "should" be easier for cadets to earn than Observer Wings?

Yes.....because it is easy to earn for anyone.