Air Crew Wings

[THRAWN]

Still not sold on the idea or necessity of a new badge. There is an aircrew badge in existence. Use the basic for MS, senior for MO, AP, etc, master for AOBD. Mirrors the GTB progression, and only requires a reg change.

[jeders]

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

[THRAWN]

No need because that insignia can be redesignated with a zero cost reg change....

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

[jeders]

No need because that insignia can be redesignated with a zero cost reg change....

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

Except for all the observers with either the basic wings or master wings who now have to go out and buy the senior wings, the AOBDs who have to go out and buy master wings. Then there is the confusion created by people who don't get the memo and think that the guy with the master observer wings has been on hundreds of missions when in fact he's never done anything more than fly as a pilot.

Just because we do it for the ground side does not mean we should do it for the air side.

Edit: And please put your quotes at the top of your reply, not the bottom. It keeps things from getting confused and aligns better with reality.

[THRAWN]

Why? It works. It wasn't always like this on the ground side either. Institutional inertia and creating insignia for legacy's sake are not valid reasons...

No need because that insignia can be redesignated with a zero cost reg change....

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

Except for all the observers with either the basic wings or master wings who now have to go out and buy the senior wings, the AOBDs who have to go out and buy master wings. Then there is the confusion created by people who don't get the memo and think that the guy with the master observer wings has been on hundreds of missions when in fact he's never done anything more than fly as a pilot.

Just because we do it for the ground side does not mean we should do it for the air side.

Edit: And please put your quotes at the top of your reply, not the bottom. It keeps things from getting confused and aligns better with reality.

[Mitchell 1969]

Why? It works. It wasn't always like this on the ground side either. Institutional inertia and creating insignia for legacy's sake are not valid reasons...

No need because that insignia can be redesignated with a zero cost reg change....

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

Except for all the observers with either the basic wings or master wings who now have to go out and buy the senior wings, the AOBDs who have to go out and buy master wings. Then there is the confusion created by people who don't get the memo and think that the guy with the master observer wings has been on hundreds of missions when in fact he's never done anything more than fly as a pilot.

Just because we do it for the ground side does not mean we should do it for the air side.

Edit: And please put your quotes at the top of your reply, not the bottom. It keeps things from getting confused and aligns better with reality.

Because it doesn't really work. Both in CAP and USAF, the star and wreathed star are used to indicate further proficiency and experience over and above the basic badge without the star or wreathed star.

A pilot is a pilot. Add a star and what is conveyed is "this is a pilot with more experience as a pilot" and not "this is somebody who does something different than what a pilot does."

Your idea is a considerable deviation from long tested and proven practice, not to mention departure from practicality and tradition. Hardly the basis for an accusation of "institutional inertia."

[flyboy53]

Why? It works. It wasn't always like this on the ground side either. Institutional inertia and creating insignia for legacy's sake are not valid reasons...

No need because that insignia can be redesignated with a zero cost reg change....

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

Except for all the observers with either the basic wings or master wings who now have to go out and buy the senior wings, the AOBDs who have to go out and buy master wings. Then there is the confusion created by people who don't get the memo and think that the guy with the master observer wings has been on hundreds of missions when in fact he's never done anything more than fly as a pilot.

Just because we do it for the ground side does not mean we should do it for the air side.

Edit: And please put your quotes at the top of your reply, not the bottom. It keeps things from getting confused and aligns better with reality.

Because it doesn't really work. Both in CAP and USAF, the star and wreathed star are used to indicate further proficiency and experience over and above the basic badge without the star or wreathed star.

A pilot is a pilot. Add a star and what is conveyed is "this is a pilot with more experience as a pilot" and not "this is somebody who does something different than what a pilot does."

Your idea is a considerable deviation from long tested and proven practice, not to mention departure from practicality and tradition. Hardly the basis for an accusation of "institutional inertia."

Agreed. There are already those who abuse/twist/interpret the regs and put on master wings just because they believe they're entitled to them after three or more years with the rating. (I personally know three of them).

Changing the system to reflect ES qualification would only create a division amongst aircrew members and create an unsafe ORM situation -- because pilot ratings are based on proficiency and hours. It is already an issue that a pilot has to earn ten times more flight time to get senior and command ratings.

Originally, observers didn't have senior and master ratings. I think the senior observer rating didn't surface until some time in the early 1960s, and given the tough requirements for observers back then, I can only guess what someone had to do to earn that rating. The reason for that was because pilots generally fly more often then observers -- and finding observers with 200 to 300 hours in the cockpit is really rare. I, myself, earned senior observer wings. It took four years. I don't see myself ever earning master wings.

The reality of this set of wings is that NHQ finally recognized that there were aircrew members who had no badge to recognize their duties. The thing is, do you really think someone is going earn a hundred hours as an aircrew member when the real intent is to continue training into observer status.

[Panache]

The reality of this set of wings is that NHQ finally recognized that there were aircrew members who had no badge to recognize their duties. The thing is, do you really think someone is going earn a hundred hours as an aircrew member when the real intent is to continue training into observer status.

Honestly, yes.  I think a significant amount of non-pilots would be quite happy remaining "just" Mission Scanners or Aerial Photographers, and really don't have any burning desire to "upgrade" to Mission Observer.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The reality of this set of wings is that NHQ finally recognized that there were aircrew members who had no badge to recognize their duties. The thing is, do you really think someone is going earn a hundred hours as an aircrew member when the real intent is to continue training into observer status.

Honestly, yes.  I think a significant amount of non-pilots would be quite happy remaining "just" Mission Scanners or Aerial Photographers, and really don't have any burning desire to "upgrade" to Mission Observer.

I have known many people who would prefer this, who have no desire to learn all the communications/navigation/maps/etc that go with the Observer role.

[mdickinson]

Delete this. Accidental double-post.

[mdickinson]

Brevet wings haven't been used in the US since before WWII.

Actually CAP had a half-wing insignia. It was called the CAP Stewardess Badge. In the '60s or '70s I think.

[mdickinson]

in the 39-1 there is still a Balloon Pilot wing .... problem is where do you purchase it? How does one qualify?  Why does it still exist?  [...]
....unlike the balloonist wings that are still authorized but rarely seen and unable to purchase.

Karliceman,
I had no difficulty buying my balloonist wings (from the CAP store at Maxwell, later CAPMart) and wear them with pride. So do all the other balloon pilots who give cadet orientation rides in their balloons, and who instruct at the annual balloon flight academy in Illinois.

The requirements for the wings were given in CAPR35-6 last time I checked.

Are you saying Vanguard does not sell them? Did you check?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The Navy still has a half wing for a "dirigible pilot."



http://www.history.navy.mil/nan/wings/wingsn.htm

[Flying Pig]

in the 39-1 there is still a Balloon Pilot wing .... problem is where do you purchase it? How does one qualify?  Why does it still exist?  [...]
....unlike the balloonist wings that are still authorized but rarely seen and unable to purchase.

Karliceman,
I had no difficulty buying my balloonist wings (from the CAP store at Maxwell, later CAPMart) and wear them with pride. So do all the other balloon pilots who give cadet orientation rides in their balloons, and who instruct at the annual balloon flight academy in Illinois.

The requirements for the wings were given in CAPR35-6 last time I checked.

Are you saying Vanguard does not sell them? Did you check?

You were the guy everyone thought was wearing "CAP jump wings" back in my cadet days

[vento]

in the 39-1 there is still a Balloon Pilot wing .... problem is where do you purchase it? How does one qualify?  Why does it still exist?  [...]
....unlike the balloonist wings that are still authorized but rarely seen and unable to purchase.

Karliceman,
I had no difficulty buying my balloonist wings (from the CAP store at Maxwell, later CAPMart) and wear them with pride. So do all the other balloon pilots who give cadet orientation rides in their balloons, and who instruct at the annual balloon flight academy in Illinois.

The requirements for the wings were given in CAPR35-6 last time I checked.

Are you saying Vanguard does not sell them? Did you check?

You were the guy everyone thought was wearing "CAP jump wings" back in my cadet days

It does look like "jumper" wings. 
Vanguard still list it under insignias.

[supertigerCH]

we call it... the flying light bulb

[CAP_truth]

See draft of CAPM39-1 page 145 figure A7-1 which show a perposed AC wings

[Eclipse]

Yes, this was what spurred many comments on the issue.

Mis-matched. off-center font, and styled in a way that emulates Naval tradition, not CAP.

[KarlIceman]

in the 39-1 there is still a Balloon Pilot wing .... problem is where do you purchase it? How does one qualify?  Why does it still exist?  [...]
....unlike the balloonist wings that are still authorized but rarely seen and unable to purchase.

Karliceman,
I had no difficulty buying my balloonist wings (from the CAP store at Maxwell, later CAPMart) and wear them with pride. So do all the other balloon pilots who give cadet orientation rides in their balloons, and who instruct at the annual balloon flight academy in Illinois.

The requirements for the wings were given in CAPR35-6 last time I checked.

Are you saying Vanguard does not sell them? Did you check?

You were the guy everyone thought was wearing "CAP jump wings" back in my cadet days

Thanks to all of you who have pointed out in Vanguard where the Balloon wings are located....Now do the Air Crew scarves still exist?.............  Who had the "CAP jump wings ?"

[NIN]

Who had the "CAP jump wings ?"

Me.