Overweight CAP members in AF-style uniforms poll

[RiverAux]

In another thread there is a sidebar discussion regarding compliance with height-weight standards by those wearing AF-style uniforms.  Some believe noncompliance is fairly common while others believe it is pretty rare. 

This will give us some idea of at least the experience of CAPTalk members....

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'm not sure how to answer this, without actually doing a weigh-in on said members.  Eyeballing it just doesn't work with me.

Years ago, in college, one of my fellow students was pregnant.  I didn't see her all that much, so I didn't know she'd given birth to a bouncing, healthy baby boy.  I saw her in the hallway one day and said, just to make conversation, "so when are you due again?"  She looked at me very oddly and said, "I had my baby several weeks ago."

Cut scene to me apologising all over myself and looking for a crack in the floor to slither into while wishing fervently I were anywhere else...Beirut, East Berlin, Pyongyang or Tehran would have all been preferable at that moment.

I resolved to never try to do a Mark I eyeball assessment of someone's weight ever again, no sirree Bub.

[Ned]

And the question as phrased is a bit problematic.

I'm not sure knowing how often an apparently overweight member is observed is very helpful for developing policy.

If a single senior member in a given wing was overweight, but attended a slew of activities, we might get numbers on this poll like 75-80%.  And yet the problem could be only a single officer out of 1200 seniors in the wing.  One guy's mistakes should not drive policy.

(Similarly, if half the seniors were grossly overweight but attended relatively few activities . . . )

From a policy perspective, it would seem more helpful to try to determine what the prevalence of aparently overweight USAF-style wearing members.  That will be a tricky number to try to run down.  I took a look at trying to extract height/weight from eServices, but we have no idea how old/accurate the self-reported information was, and no way to know if the member was wearing a USAF-style uniform.

(At one point I was going to try to use the pictures to tell, but it just didn't seem like it was going to produce reliable data one way or another.)

[Private Investigator]

Years ago, in college, one of my fellow students was pregnant. 

Being a retired policeman I am very good at H/W and age guestimation. Most college boys have no ideal how much a slim beautiful woman weighs or what an average girl weighs. Young men guess most attractive women are 110# because they heard that on tv and in movies. A voluptuous woman usually weighs in at, a buck seventy-five to a deuce and a quarter. Your mileage may vary.

On topic, I have seen Veterans and non-Veteran members of CAP obviously overweight in AF style uniforms. I mentioned that because 20 years ago it seemed like it was only non-Vets were guilty but today I can safely say everyone in America has a weight issue. 

[RiverAux]

Yes, I could have done the poll to ask what percent of CAP members wearing AF-style uniforms appear to be out of compliance, but personally I feel that the impact of uniform violations of all types depends more on how often you see something rather than the overall number of individuals violating the reg.

If you see uniform violations at 100% of CAP events that is going to have more of an impact on you than the overall percentage of members out of compliance. 

Do a poll the other way if you'd like. 

[Walkman]

Eyeballing is tough. Recently, when I was right under the line and still legal to wear AF style, I might have made someone think otherwise. BDUs and full service dress looked decent on me, flight suit, less so but still not bad. Short sleeve blues, however, my belly looked like crap.

[Garibaldi]

Lord, looking at a photo of me in AFROTC in my blues it's a wonder they didn't bounce me right then. Talk about a potato!

[Thrashed]

Sometimes eyeballing is easy. If its tough to tell if the are under or over, let them go, who cares. I've seen some that you do not need a scale for. It is so obvious a blind man could tell they are way over the limits. It makes us look bad.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I have seen obviously overweight members in USAF style uniforms at almost every function I have ever been to.

But that is not the only issue...

At nearly every function in blues, most members LT Col and above are wearing their badges and awards well above the top notch. There are plenty of rules being broken.

[Woodsy]

Eyeballing is tough. Recently, when I was right under the line and still legal to wear AF style, I might have made someone think otherwise. BDUs and full service dress looked decent on me, flight suit, less so but still not bad. Short sleeve blues, however, my belly looked like crap.

I'm the same way.  I'm under, but not by much (about 10 pounds.)  I still give off the "military image" when wearing BDU's, flight suit, dress blues, and I feel and look fine doing so.  I'm broad shouldered, broad chested, muscular neck and arms, but have a little too much flab around my belt line to feel that I present the "military image" wearing any tucked-in uniform.  For this reason, I choose to wear the aviator shirt uniform when the situation calls for a tucked-in uniform.  While I "could" wear the short sleeve blues, I just don't think it looks right. 

[Private Investigator]

Sometimes eyeballing is easy. If its tough to tell if the are under or over, let them go, who cares. I've seen some that you do not need a scale for. It is so obvious a blind man could tell they are way over the limits. It makes us look bad.

Roger that.

Eventually I think we should all accept wearing grey & whites. My personal opinion is when I know I look elderly I will stop wearing the AF style uniforms.

[SARDOC]

Eventually I think we should all accept wearing grey & whites. My personal opinion is when I know I look elderly I will stop wearing the AF style uniforms.

While, I'm not sure the Grey and White is the solution.  Out of our Current uniforms I agree it's the probably the best option.  I would like to see one commonly accepted uniform for all of our people I would still like to see something that can be attributed to our Air Force heritage.   That being said I think we could probably use some kind of Khaki shirt that would go back even further our real Army Air Corps heritage.

Think Khaki Shirt with the Air Force Blue Pants....same as our Current USAF style uniform just with the Khaki shirt/Khaki dress Coat. 

Just a half baked idea as I write this.

[abdsp51]

Think Khaki Shirt with the Air Force Blue Pants....same as our Current USAF style uniform just with the Khaki shirt/Khaki dress Coat. 

Just a half baked idea as I write this.

Yuck.  I think we need to focus on enforcement of proper uniform wear and see what the latest draft of 39-1 says before we go trying to say ditch one uniform or another. 

[Sapper168]

.....

Think Khaki Shirt with the Air Force Blue Pants....same as our Current USAF style uniform just with the Khaki shirt/Khaki dress Coat. 

Just a half baked idea as I write this.

You mean like this currently issued Navy uniform....   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Navy_080730-N-7090S-004_Personnel_Specialist_1st_Class_Howard_Williams_models_the_new_E-6_and_below_Service_Uniform_(SU)._The_SU_is_for_year-round_wear_and_replaces_summer_white_and_winter_blue_uniforms.jpg

[celticwolf]

When it comes to this issue, for me, it comes down to the reason we have the weight standards in the first place: is the member 'marring the lines/look of the uniform'. Fortunately, here at Oregon Wing, we've got a crusty old AF Chief Master Sergeant as our Wing Master Sergeant, and he keeps everyone in line.

That said, I'm thinking about putting forward a proposal to my Wing Commander for the NB CAP CC to review in that we allow those that are over the weight limit, but within body fat composition limits, to wear the AF style uniforms. It would fit with military policy, keep the rule I listed above active, and allow those that are overweight due to good physical health (hey, it's possible!) to wear what they wanted.

As for those members that are not meeting the rule above... what about simply letting the member know that they may want to consider the look of the uniform? After all, no one wants to look tacky. We all want to look as sharp as possible... or so we can hope. 

[abdsp51]

That said, I'm thinking about putting forward a proposal to my Wing Commander for the NB CAP CC to review in that we allow those that are over the weight limit, but within body fat composition limits, to wear the AF style uniforms. It would fit with military policy, keep the rule I listed above active, and allow those that are overweight due to good physical health (hey, it's possible!) to wear what they wanted.

You're forgetting one thing. I is not upto the Wg or the Nat CC to allow members who do not either willingly or unwillingly to wear the AF style uniform.  That call is up to the AF and with them kicking people out who can't pass the pt test I highly doubt they are going to change their mind on this. 

[cap235629]

That said, I'm thinking about putting forward a proposal to my Wing Commander for the NB CAP CC to review in that we allow those that are over the weight limit, but within body fat composition limits, to wear the AF style uniforms. It would fit with military policy, keep the rule I listed above active, and allow those that are overweight due to good physical health (hey, it's possible!) to wear what they wanted.

You're forgetting one thing. I is not upto the Wg or the Nat CC to allow members who do not either willingly or unwillingly to wear the AF style uniform.  That call is up to the AF and with them kicking people out who can't pass the pt test I highly doubt they are going to change their mind on this.

They are kicking people out who CAN pass the PT test but happen to have a waistline greater than 38 inches.... even if they are within H/W standards....

[abdsp51]

They are kicking people out who CAN pass the PT test but happen to have a waistline greater than 38 inches.... even if they are within H/W standards....

We do not have H/W standards in the AF anymore.  And if they have a waistline of greater than 38 inches then they are not meeting the min or max for that category.  And I am willing to bet you that they are consistent with the measurement and not fluctuating.

[SARDOC]

.....

Think Khaki Shirt with the Air Force Blue Pants....same as our Current USAF style uniform just with the Khaki shirt/Khaki dress Coat. 

Just a half baked idea as I write this.

You mean like this currently issued Navy uniform....   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Navy_080730-N-7090S-004_Personnel_Specialist_1st_Class_Howard_Williams_models_the_new_E-6_and_below_Service_Uniform_(SU)._The_SU_is_for_year-round_wear_and_replaces_summer_white_and_winter_blue_uniforms.jpg

I didn't even think of that one.  Those pants are black though.

[LGM30GMCC]

They are kicking people out who CAN pass the PT test but happen to have a waistline greater than 38 inches.... even if they are within H/W standards....

We do not have H/W standards in the AF anymore.  And if they have a waistline of greater than 38 inches then they are not meeting the min or max for that category.  And I am willing to bet you that they are consistent with the measurement and not fluctuating.

At least as of 2007 we did. I know because I was below minimum weight to commission and had to gain about 5-7 lbs in a few weeks in order to commission. I also notice they took my height and weight during my PFT approximately 15 days ago.

Here are the standards if you want to join up from the AF site: http://www.airforce.com/height-weight/
Here they are with the minimum standards: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforcejoin/a/afmaxweight.htm

So for continued service, yes there are different rules. But there are still height/weight standards for joining.