Army gives up ACUs...AF next?

[Pylon]

You understand what I'm saying though. Maybe not the best choice of words but still.

No, actually I didn't agree with your point.  Especially the choice of words.

[davedove]

If every service can have all sorts of distinct varieties of service, dress & mess, flight, and special uniforms (like food service), why should the field uniforms be the sole banner cry for everything being made the same in the interest of "cost savings" (if there really are any to be had).  Everyone has different requirements for field/utility uniforms as it is.  Same-ness doesn't make sense.  For example:  The Navy uses their blue digital utilities because, for one, it hides stains from working aboard the ship really well; most sailors don't need to blend in with their terrain and the operators who do have usually done their own thing anyway.  Desert MARPAT for example wouldn't serve that function as well for most Navy personnel.

I agree you wouldn't want one field uniform for all situations, but why should there be different field uniforms for two different individuals just because they're from different services.  I would think if two groups of servicemen were in the same setting, working side by side, they should have the same uniforms.

[AngelWings]

You understand what I'm saying though. Maybe not the best choice of words but still.

No, actually I didn't agree with your point.  Especially the choice of words.

That everyone involved in combat deserves a decent pattern that conceals them from the enemy?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Here's the biggest interesting piece to me... Why would guard so closely the MARPAT if you aren't even going to use it in combat while attached to an Army unit? I was in Iraq with marine dog handlers, and you know what? They didnt wear their MARPATs once, they wore ACUs the whole time. So obviously it's not that awesome of a uniform if you don't wear it around other branches.

I wish they got rid of the ACU WIWAD. It is junk unless you are laying in a gravel pit hiding from someone 600 metered away.

[Stonewall]

...they wore ACUs the whole time. So obviously it's not that awesome of a uniform if you don't wear it around other branches.

Same reason our K9 Airmen working with the Army wear ACUs, so they don't stand out.  Navy does this as well.  Our EOD techs, Navy MAs, you name it.  You wear the uniform of the organization you're working with so you don't stand out among a group.  If you're the only hommie wearing MARPATS in a sea of ACUs, well, you must be important so I'm gonna go ahead and target you first.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I am of the (perhaps erroneous) opinion that CAP wil never get ABU's...once the supply of BDU's is exhausted for good (trickling down from the AD, Guard and Reserve), I see us going to all-BBDU's.

I also think it would be better and in keeping with our "pickle suit" heritage to switch to solid green BDU's.

There is precedent for all services having just one camouflage pattern...my ex-brother-in-law was in the Army when they switched from OD's to BDU's, and he told me that the idea was for all the service branches to have a common field uniform to reduce costs.  And this was in the big-defence-spending Reagan years.



The three branches of the Canadian Armed Forces all use the CADPAT (the RCN when ashore, but not shipboard)


All three branches of the Deutsche Bundeswehr use Flecktarn, which was first used in WWII by the Waffen-SS


All three (four, if you count the Royal Marines as being separate) branches of the UK armed forces use Disruptive Pattern Material (DPM)

So I don't get what it is with the separate services having separate patterns...especially in these days when the DoD budget is shrinking.

[SarDragon]

I'd say the NWU is on life support as well.  I've spoken to more than a couple Navy guys who have pointed out that at sea, the boats they are on stand out pretty well (vs. the camo'ed sailors), but when someone in the NWU falls in the water, they effectively disappear.

They aren't much different from the olde dungarees, and replacement working uniforms (whatever they were called). You pretty much disappeared in the water wearing those, too.

[saleet]

Dave, I am for the navy going back to the old Dungarees.

[Eclipse]

I am of the (perhaps erroneous) opinion that CAP wil never get ABU's...once the supply of BDU's is exhausted for good (trickling down from the AD, Guard and Reserve), I see us going to all-BBDU's.

Time will prove us right my friend, and it looks like sooner then expected...

[Pylon]

That everyone involved in combat deserves a decent pattern that conceals them from the enemy?

No. I disagree with your viewpoint that because the other services haven't tried to adopt MARPAT, that the Marine Corps must be selfish and that  they're the only service which doesn't share everything with the other services.  I disagree with your (in my view, pretty ridiculous) viewpoint that Marines shouldn't be in the military over the issue of uniforms. 


I do believe that service members in combat zones and outside the wire deserve good camouflage.  To assert that I don't believe that just because I think the various services can function with their own choices of camo pattern is silly and a bad jump of logic.  The Army is looking into options they think work best for their soldiers.  There are dozens of great patterns out there and the Army is researching which one they find is best.  The Army's original decision to adopt the ACUPAT was their own decision.  Don't blame the Marine Corps for the Army selecting a sub-optimal camo pattern.


But hey, what do I know.  I'm just an infantry grunt... 

So I don't get what it is with the separate services having separate patterns...especially in these days when the DoD budget is shrinking.

I have yet to see any credible information that strongly concludes the Armed Forces will save money by switching to a common field uniform pattern.  The sheer size of outfitting any one of the services is large enough that I can't imagine economies of scale are going to save any additional money.   Plus, if you force the Marine Corps to switch from field uniforms that they're already using and completely okay with just so everyone can look the same then you're actually wasting money and perfectly good unforms and matching equipment and accessories.

I also don't buy the argument that the services cannot decide for themselves what utility uniform works best for their service and for their typical work environment and typical duties.  That somehow we know better than the service chiefs of each branch what their service ought to be using.

[lordmonar]

Can anyone cite an Army Source that they are in fact doing away with the ACUs?

I know the story posted says they are going away....but a google search for army news about them going aways come up empty.

IMHO neither the ABU nor the ACU are going away........the DoD has spend too much money on them already....and if you have not noticed the DoD has got to cut its budget by something like $200B by the end of the (assuming the automatic cuts kick in).....I don't see them spedning the money on developing and fielding a new uniform.....even if they wanted to.......any time soon.

[AngelWings]

That everyone involved in combat deserves a decent pattern that conceals them from the enemy?

No. I disagree with your viewpoint that because the other services haven't tried to adopt MARPAT, that the Marine Corps must be selfish and that  they're the only service which doesn't share everything with the other services.  I disagree with your (in my view, pretty ridiculous) viewpoint that Marines shouldn't be in the military over the issue of uniforms. 


I do believe that service members in combat zones and outside the wire deserve good camouflage.  To assert that I don't believe that just because I think the various services can function with their own choices of camo pattern is silly and a bad jump of logic.  The Army is looking into options they think work best for their soldiers.  There are dozens of great patterns out there and the Army is researching which one they find is best.  The Army's original decision to adopt the ACUPAT was their own decision.  Don't blame the Marine Corps for the Army selecting a sub-optimal camo pattern.


But hey, what do I know.  I'm just an infantry grunt...

I'm not trying to come off disrespectful here, and if it did, I sincerly apologize. When I say Marine Corps, I am not talking about individual Marines or the huge majority of men. I am talking about one or two people in high position who decide things for the Marine Corps that are sometimes distasteful, not only to the Marines they affect, but sometimes (quite rarely) other services. I'm not trying to say Marines shouldn't be in the Armed Forces family, I am trying to say that if the highest tier of leadership thinks only about themselves, and are not willing to save their brothers and sisters lives by sharing an effective pattern to another service/group of people, than whose side are they on (which their decisions come off as "their own").

I am not blaming the USMC for the Army's mistake, I am saying the USMC could save some Soldiers lives if they allow some of their patterns to be adopted. It's praise to the USMC for getting it right more than anything.

Rereading some of my posts, they do come off really rash and I apologize and wish I could take them back all together. Things came off way different than I intended.

[SarDragon]

Dave, I am for the navy going back to the old Dungarees.

I've chatted with a variety of people who have worn both, and most prefer the NWU. There are comfort issues, but durability and functionality are much better with the NWU.

[lordmonar]

Yes....well.....if we want to point fingers.....we have to point them to the USMC.

The USMC unilaterally changed their uniform.  The did it in such a way that made it impossible for the other services to follow.

It opened the door for the ACU and ABU and the USN monstrosity we have today.

Beyond that.......there is not a lot anyone can do.

[Pylon]

I'm not trying to come off disrespectful here, and if it did, I sincerly apologize. When I say Marine Corps, I am not talking about individual Marines or the huge majority of men. I am talking about one or two people in high position who decide things for the Marine Corps that are sometimes distasteful, not only to the Marines they affect, but sometimes (quite rarely) other services. I'm not trying to say Marines shouldn't be in the Armed Forces family, I am trying to say that if the highest tier of leadership thinks only about themselves, and are not willing to save their brothers and sisters lives by sharing an effective pattern to another service/group of people, than whose side are they on (which their decisions come off as "their own").

I happen to agree with that leadership.


On a side note, there are other completely viable options which do a great job of camouflaging soldiers.  According to their own press releases, the Army said they tested 57 patterns last year and found that a version of Multicam (which they're using in country now) was the best camouflage for Afghanistan.  (See reference in 5th para of this MilitaryTimes article).

[Pylon]

Yes....well.....if we want to point fingers.....we have to point them to the USMC.

The USMC unilaterally changed their uniform.  The did it in such a way that made it impossible for the other services to follow.

It opened the door for the ACU and ABU and the USN monstrosity we have today.

Beyond that.......there is not a lot anyone can do.

A)  The USMC decided that they weren't happy with the BDU and DCU status quo that everyone else was complacent with and spent some of their own budgeted money on R&D for a distinctive Marine pattern that camoflagued better in a variety of environments.  Pointing a finger at the USMC is like the record companies blaming Apple for pushing development ahead of the status quo and making music buying more convenient because the record companies were content just selling CD's for eternity.


B)  Aside from, yes, putting a patent on the one pattern (with two color variants) among a literal infinite number of camouflage patterns possible the Marine Corps had nothing to do with the Army and other services picking camouflage patterns that people generally dislike and/or work poorly.

[jimmydeanno]

I think what Pylon is saying is that if the Army, Air Force, and Navy want to use the pattern, they can.  The Marines aren't stopping them, and it's not a select few in the Marine leadership positions -stopping- them from using it, but the other services electing not to use it.  So calling The Marine Corps out for not sharing isn't an accurate statement.

I find it hard to believe that the smallest of the armed forces would be in a position to dictate to branches, like the Army, what pattern they are allowed to use and what they aren't.

The patenting of the pattern, I think, is a good move.  It prevents the pattern from being adopted by parties that would not necessarily be our friends.  So, if the pattern is that good, you'd want to limit who was able to manufacture, distribute, etc.

You also have to remember that there is a lot of politiking when it comes to large contracts, like this.  There is a lot of money to be made so people lobby, wine and dine, etc.  Rarely is the decision made from test results and consulting with E-1 types.

[AngelWings]

I'm not trying to come off disrespectful here, and if it did, I sincerly apologize. When I say Marine Corps, I am not talking about individual Marines or the huge majority of men. I am talking about one or two people in high position who decide things for the Marine Corps that are sometimes distasteful, not only to the Marines they affect, but sometimes (quite rarely) other services. I'm not trying to say Marines shouldn't be in the Armed Forces family, I am trying to say that if the highest tier of leadership thinks only about themselves, and are not willing to save their brothers and sisters lives by sharing an effective pattern to another service/group of people, than whose side are they on (which their decisions come off as "their own").

I happen to agree with that leadership.


On a side note, there are other completely viable options which do a great job of camouflaging soldiers.  According to their own press releases, the Army said they tested 57 patterns last year and found that a version of Multicam (which they're using in country now) was the best camouflage for Afghanistan.  (See reference in 5th para of this MilitaryTimes article).

Multicam is a great pattern, but it doesn't seem promising that it is designed for Afghanistan because once we leave Afghanistan, it may not blend in well with other regions. I've always wondered why the Army and Air Force don't simply make two uniforms designed for the desert and woodland, or one pattern with a darker version and lighter version, not unlike the old ERDL uniforms. I agree with lordmonar that with the Marines copyrighting the pattern, they created a monstrosity. The Army made a universal version (that is universally horrible) and the Air force made a tigerstripe version that, however sexy (as my friends call it), isn't effective and is basically a knockoff of the ACU. It is a domino effect of some sorts.

[SARDOC]

I'd say the NWU is on life support as well.  I've spoken to more than a couple Navy guys who have pointed out that at sea, the boats they are on stand out pretty well (vs. the camo'ed sailors), but when someone in the NWU falls in the water, they effectively disappear.

They aren't much different from the olde dungarees, and replacement working uniforms (whatever they were called). You pretty much disappeared in the water wearing those, too.

At least the pants from the Old Dungarees, you could use as a flotation device.  Does that show my age?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I find it hard to believe that the smallest of the armed forces would be in a position to dictate to branches, like the Army, what pattern they are allowed to use and what they aren't.

The Coast Guard is the smallest of the Armed Forces.