CAP Decorations

[Patterson]

I know it's hard for a non-military member to understand, but a military service ribbon is just another stupid CAP ribbon that palls in comparison to the various awards, decorations, ribbons and service medals that a military member brings in terms of personal honor and credibility to this organization.

I guess it's hard for you to understand that CAP ribbons are important to...CAP members. Many of whom don't know what the military fruit salad you are wearing means, and most likely don't care. When I see a CAP member with a bunch of military awards and no CAP awards, my impression is they have no respect for CAP, despite being a member. Those who wear both show they have an understanding of CAP AND, more importantly, they respect what CAP offers.

If the AF or NB came down tomorrow and banned military awards on ALL CAP uniforms, that'd be fine.

Agreed!!!

How disrespectful to those CAP Members who earned those CAP Ribbons. With an attitude like that, I would not want that guy anywhere around my Cadets, no matter if he were a war hero.

I do believe the military has some very pointless ribbons itself.  Basic training graduation ribbons??  Marksmanship ribbons!! etc.

I like the idea of CAP Ribbons on CAP uniforms. Period.

 

[Major Carrales]

Wilson and Spaatz medals? I wouldn't agree. Keep them, but don't categorize them as medals.

I would keep them as awards, they represent the pinicles of Senior and Cadet Professional Development.  That is a significant enough situation to have a ribbon with a medal as an awards instead of a "decoration."

Longevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.

I agree, the idea of "RED SERVICE" is one if the oldest in CAP.  There was once Green and Blue Service reflecting hours of Civil Defense Service. 

Combine Recruiter ribbons: Definitely. No real point to have separate ones. Pick a number for both sides of the membership, and be done with it.

Again, I agree, I am even unsure why the different ribbons exist and continue to exist.

Basic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.

The idea of "Basic Training" would insinuate a period of intense training that does not exist in CAP.  I don't think such training would be viable.   On the Cadet side, where most initial training is done at the squadron and cadets join as individuals at any given time, a centralised wing BT would be difficult to get to (problems that exist with WING ENCAMPMENT) and cadets would likely drop out if not allowed promotion/participation without attendance.

Seniors would find it difficult to attend a three week course because we "have to make the money to be able to eat."  Unless the status of CAP were upgraded to more like a Reserve Status where payment and work allowance could be made.  Then again, the 70 year old who joins to be active in an organization may not wish to do a such training if it involved certain things.  The nature of CAP must be tempered by realities.

"Campaign" awards: Another concept I like, but not the name. We don't have campaigns in CAP. To minimize a bunch of separate ribbons, I would suggest a device for the specific incident. If someone gets another one under their belt, they have the option of going with a different device or instead going with stars or leaves (but now both, it's either worn with one incident name device or with multiple attachments).

I would narrow this down to catergories.  Hurricane Relief, REDCAP, Homeland Security (which already exists), disaster relief (which also already exists) and other things where people "deploy" with some year (to indicate when it happened...or Hurricane Name) device for the mini-medal and multi-award device for the ribbon.  The mini-medals with said indicators would be for display with only one being worn given during the presentation.  Wearing them all would likely be in the realm of too much, the one worn on mess dress would follow the covention of the ribbon.

[NCRblues]

the military has several "pointless" ribbons or "thanks for being here awards" ... so does civil air patrol...

I wear my military ribbons AND my civil air patrol ribbons with EQUAL pride, for i am equally happy with my service in both, and I believe that both sets of ribbons have value anyway you look at it.

Was my service worthy of a bronze star or higher award? Nope, but i am [darn] proud of my Air Force Achievement Medal since i got it as an A1C...
Is my service in cap worth a high award? More than likely not but i am [darn] proud of my commanders com for service when i was cadet....

Please do not lower either sets of awards, military or cap, someone worked very hard to get some of them and they are proud to be able to do what they can.

[spacecommand]

I want to say that I do not think it is a dishonor to members who have served or continue to serve in the Military. 
I would support the idea of a "military service ribbon" (tentitve naming) to recognize that a member has served in the armed forces.  It will be a CAP ribbon and be situated somewhere in the appropriate order of precedence. 

I think that one ribbon idea is currently in discussion to be worn on the White aviator shirt/grey pants combination (since military ribbons cannot be worn on that uniform combination). 

On the flip side, I also think it would be great for the AF to have a ribbon that denotes one has served with the Civil Air Patrol as well. 

[Major Carrales]

the military has several "pointless" ribbons or "thanks for being here awards" ... so does civil air patrol...

I wear my military ribbons AND my civil air patrol ribbons with EQUAL pride, for i am equally happy with my service in both, and I believe that both sets of ribbons have value anyway you look at it.

Was my service worthy of a bronze star or higher award? Nope, but i am [darn] proud of my Air Force Achievement Medal since i got it as an A1C...
Is my service in cap worth a high award? More than likely not but i am [darn] proud of my commanders com for service when i was cadet....

Please do not lower either sets of awards, military or cap, someone worked very hard to get some of them and they are proud to be able to do what they can.

Well written.  Again, the problems only exists when people try to apply US military (or anyother organization) culture to CAP and CAP Culture to the Military.

The worth of these awards is inherent.  Comparison as if they were somehow meant to be judges by the same rubric just starts arguments.

[Major Carrales]

I think that one ribbon idea is currently in discussion to be worn on the White aviator shirt/grey pants combination (since military ribbons cannot be worn on that uniform combination). 

On the flip side, I also think it would be great for the AF to have a ribbon that denotes one has served with the Civil Air Patrol as well.

The idea of a "Military Service" CAP ribbon has merit, but, some might see it as a precursor to moving away from the USAF style uniform (since lots of CAPTALKERS see uniform policy as a barometer of things to come...a concept I find suspect.)

[PhoenixRisen]

I will likely never have the opportunity to wear US military awards on my CAP uniform...so I have no dog in the fight...but I will fight for those that can wear them to wear them and I will make it known to those that would not that CAP decorations are not somehow FAKE or SECOND CLASS.

As someone who knows they will never have the opportunity to wear a military uniform due to medical reasons, I would like to echo this point.  CAP awards may not mean anything to some who have served (and carry that attitude), but being as how this is as close as I'll ever get to the RealMilitary™, they sure as hell do in my eyes.

[Hawk200]

I think it is a state of mind more than is admitted.  I suppose I could join the Texas National Guard, have a short, lack lusture, "did the bear minimums" and unremarkable career at it...then return here as a EXPERT because I had been in the military.  Would I then be a "wannabe" for being in the Civil Air Patrol?  or, posses any more worth because I slept on a military installation for a number of years?

I wouldn't consider you a "wannabe". Coming back as an "expert"? Wouldn't make you a "wannabe", just a blowhard.

I am in awe of those that served.  I am in shadow of those whose service was heroic and born of the stuff that is worthy of US military Awards and Decoration.  Thse awards have worth for what they are, and so does their service.

I don't really understand the "awe" part, most military members are doing a job. Yes, many do it for patriotic reasons, but the uniform doesn't make us any better or worse than anyone else. I can think of many things I would willingly die for, my country is just one of them.

However, there are geat things done in CAP which CAP Awards recognize.  I will not have that belitted out of specious comparison.  That "comparsion" is as favorite past time of the CAPTALKER.

Yes, there are. CAP awards are not inferior to military awards, they're just different. Different as in comparing apples to oranges.

I have 13 years in the Civil Air Patrol, 12 of which I was extremely active.  I've mentored Cadets that went on to bigger and better things who would have likely died in gangs otherwise, been to Hurricane relief efforts, been to REDCAPS and helped to make my part of CAP better than it was (and much , much more).  Others here have done more and could list it.  All of it from a "heart of service" with no pay, while holding down a family and a full time job.  Yet, despite all that...there are those that belittle that service as some sort "wannabe."  There are even others that will look down on me and those like me as "second class" in every way because I did not serve in the military.

Your service is just as commendable as mine, maybe even more so because you touched other lives and put them on the right track. In the military, I probably won't have the chance to shape the lives as near as many people.

[lordmonar]

I just realized how far this drift went, so I 'll address the OP.

Wilson and Spaatz medals? I wouldn't agree. Keep them, but don't categorize them as medals.

They already are medals...

Longevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.

Same ribbon new name.

Basic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.

Got a better one?  It is descriptive and accurate.

[Major Carrales]

I don't really understand the "awe" part, most military members are doing a job. Yes, many do it for patriotic reasons, but the uniform doesn't make us any better or worse than anyone else. I can think of many things I would willingly die for, my country is just one of them.

Hawk, would you mind if I elaborated on this.  I  must admit that there is something to this and this may get off the track a might but it does address what I believe to be an underpinning of this debate.

The "awe" I speak of comes from having made the choices I made.  I choose "domestic" service to my nation as a teacher, I wanted to get married and raise a family (and keep it togehter) and complete my education.  All the time the opportunity to serve in the military came around, but I had a distinct plan and vision.  I wanted to do my part to win the "wars" at home, to educate and build a strong citizenry because I, as a student and citizen, saw society weakening and a strong indication that those things that make America what it has always been were eroding due, not to any political ideology, but to concepts like "ignorance and apathy."

And so, as the years went by...I focused on that.  Sometimes to great triumph and other times to frustration.  Then I discovered CAP...it allowed me to serve the community on every level I have ever wanted.  Helping cadets, rescuring people and educating ina unique way.

As the years went by...something else happened...I had raidly passed the desired/ideal age to serve.  There lies some regrets...one can't do everything.

The AWE I speak of comes from what a career serviceman or woman deals with in making that service.  It could mean leaving a family behind for month at a time, or even loosing that family due to the stresses of being so far away.  The rate of divorce I've seen among the military friends I have.  That a service person would sacrifice this is awesome in the old definition of it.

That they would leave their homeland and be in situations of danger...and that they might never return alive.  That is awesome in its scope.

That they endure ridicule and manipulation by ignorant fools furthering political agendas, and continue to do their job without even the ability to criticize, and, that when they do they can be fired.  That ability to withstand what must be a holding of one's tongue inspires awe.

My awe of the military has little to do with the uniform or romantic view of the WARRIOR in popular culture and everything to do with what a WARRIOR faces merely to do their job.  "Wannabe-ism" comes from worshiping the "IMAGE" the "IDOL" of what it means to be in the military without any true committment to the spirt and reality of it.  Service is honorable, be it in CAP or the USAF. 

I hope that makes sense and is not offensive to anyone.

[Hawk200]

They already are medals...

You're gonna have to show me that. All the pubs I have state that the Spaatz is an award.

Now, if you're talking about the fact that every single decoration that CAP has is available in a "medal" form, that doesn't fly. It's still called an award.

Longevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.

Same ribbon new name.

And what I meant is "No." No new ribbon, no rename. Keep the ribbon, keep it's current name. Respect it's history, don't throw it away.

Basic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.

Got a better one?  It is descriptive and accurate.

No, I don't have a better name, and that does not mean it's a good idea. CAP does not have a basic training, so it's not descriptive, and definitely not accurate.

A ribbon to designate an initial entry training completion is a good idea. The name is not.

[Patterson]

^like the "Membership Ribbon" and "Curry Ribbon"?!?!?

[Major Carrales]

They already are medals...

You're gonna have to show me that. All the pubs I have state that the Spaatz is an award.

Now, if you're talking about the fact that every single decoration that CAP has is available in a "medal" form, that doesn't fly. It's still called an award.

My point is that it is an "award," and should stay as one for the reasons I mentioned.  There are those, however, that would support it merely being a "ribbon." 

Since all CAP awards and decorations are basically "ribbons" with a "mini-medal," save those that are worn around the neck or the top decorations (which are full sized), with not full sized medal this is problematic should they start issuing the "CAP MEDAL of this".

[lordmonar]

They already are medals...

You're gonna have to show me that. All the pubs I have state that the Spaatz is an award.

Now, if you're talking about the fact that every single decoration that CAP has is available in a "medal" form, that doesn't fly. It's still called an award.

Longevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.

Same ribbon new name.

And what I meant is "No." No new ribbon, no rename. Keep the ribbon, keep it's current name. Respect it's history, don't throw it away.

Basic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.

Got a better one?  It is descriptive and accurate.

No, I don't have a better name, and that does not mean it's a good idea. CAP does not have a basic training, so it's not descriptive, and definitely not accurate.

A ribbon to designate an initial entry training completion is a good idea. The name is not.

You really going to split hairs with me!?

As for Red Service Ribbon vs CAP Longevity Ribbon.......come one....screw the "history" of the "Red Service Ribbon".   It is not like we are preserving that history in any what.

As for the CAP basic training ribbon....CAP does too have a basic training......it is called Level I for Seniors and Curry Achievement for Cadets.

[Major Carrales]

They already are medals...

You're gonna have to show me that. All the pubs I have state that the Spaatz is an award.

Now, if you're talking about the fact that every single decoration that CAP has is available in a "medal" form, that doesn't fly. It's still called an award.

Longevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.

Same ribbon new name.

And what I meant is "No." No new ribbon, no rename. Keep the ribbon, keep it's current name. Respect it's history, don't throw it away.

Basic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.

Got a better one?  It is descriptive and accurate.

No, I don't have a better name, and that does not mean it's a good idea. CAP does not have a basic training, so it's not descriptive, and definitely not accurate.

A ribbon to designate an initial entry training completion is a good idea. The name is not.

You really going to split hairs with me!?

As for Red Service Ribbon vs CAP Longevity Ribbon.......come one....screw the "history" of the "Red Service Ribbon".   It is not like we are preserving that history in any what.

As for the CAP basic training ribbon....CAP does too have a basic training......it is called Level I for Seniors and Curry Achievement for Cadets.

Would you...could you...honestly make a reference to CAP LEVEL I as "Basic Training?"  While it is basic training (lower case), the connotation will be looked at a "Basic Training" (upper case) and create all sorts of ridicule from the ignorant.

Also, there is no fault or folly in preserving the "RED SERVICE" ribbon, in fact, that is one place that remains distinctively CAP.  I say, leave it alone. 

[lordmonar]

I got no time for the ravings of the ignorant.

If Joe Blow USAF type thinks the CAP Basic Training Ribbon is the same as the USAF Basic Military Training Ribbon....then it is his problem.

If we want to call it the Initial Training Ribbon.....what ever....but I can't spend my life worried that some ignoramus may get the wrong idea.

As for the "Red Service Ribbon"........it does not mean anything.  That is...the community service ribbon....service to community....Command Service Ribbon.....service as a commander.....Red Service........Service to the Reds....Why does Cincinnati get  our special service....and not any other MLB team?   

The Longevity Ribbon....actually tells the world what it is for.

[Major Carrales]

I got no time for the ravings of the ignorant.

If Joe Blow USAF type thinks the CAP Basic Training Ribbon is the same as the USAF Basic Military Training Ribbon....then it is his problem.

If we want to call it the Initial Training Ribbon.....what ever....but I can't spend my life worried that some ignoramus may get the wrong idea.

As for the "Red Service Ribbon"........it does not mean anything.  That is...the community service ribbon....service to community....Command Service Ribbon.....service as a commander.....Red Service........Service to the Reds....Why does Cincinnati get  our special service....and not any other MLB team?   

The Longevity Ribbon....actually tells the world what it is for.

I fully agree with your first comments.  Many times we give too much creedence to the ignorant instead of taking the time to educate them. 

As for Red Service, the historical significance of it is what makes me its fan.  I would likely not protest all that much if it were changed to being called "the" Longevity Ribbon, since it already is "a" longevity ribbon. 

[Hawk200]

You really going to split hairs with me!?

It's not splitting hairs to call something by it's designated terminology, and ignoring your slang. Slang terminology is what's muddying our program as it is, and you're empowering it.

As for the CAP basic training ribbon....CAP does too have a basic training......it is called Level I for Seniors and Curry Achievement for Cadets.

If you think that relates to Basic Training, yours must have been pretty simple. How'd you skip the six weeks? They're not the same. Never have been, never will be.

[Major Carrales]

You really going to split hairs with me!?

It's not splitting hairs to call something by it's designated terminology, and ignoring your slang. Slang terminology is what's muddying our program as it is, and you're empowering it.

Yes, either there are "Class A" uniforms in CAP or there are not.  (slight sniker...or a laugh in a sly or derisive, partly stifled manner)

[lordmonar]

As for the CAP basic training ribbon....CAP does too have a basic training......it is called Level I for Seniors and Curry Achievement for Cadets.

If you think that relates to Basic Training, yours must have been pretty simple. How'd you skip the six weeks? They're not the same. Never have been, never will be.

There you go equating CAP stuff with RM stuff.

It is not the BMTS ribbon....it is the CAP Basic Training Ribbon.

You bring me to task about correct terminolgy.....so you need to stop comparing apples and oranges.