CAP Decorations

[lordmonar]

I'm not a big fan of the CAC in the first place...but I could live with it if I had to.

I would support the military service ribbon if we eliminated the option to wear military ribbons.

I also don't like the AFA,AFSA, VFW ribbons....if we really want to have a cadet enlisted/nco/officer of the year program then let's get our own.

I would also eliminate the option to wear ROTC/JROTC ribbons.

I would follow the USAF's program and only have a ribbon for the "12 outstand cadets of the year".
I was a base level NCO of the year winner while on AD.....all I got was a plaque....I got more for being the Squadron NCO of the quarter!

[DakRadz]

I'm not a big fan of the CAC in the first place...but I could live with it if I had to.

CAC is definitely an iffy group at best (says a current serving member)- there are cadets who make use of it wisely and provide a great service to the area they are advising- I'd say these are few and far between, and not getting a ribbon would probably not phase these cadets...
Then again, counter-arguments could be easily made.

I would support the military service ribbon if we eliminated the option to wear military ribbons.

I know you are retired military sir, so I am not attempting to argue or act as if I have ANY military experience. That said, I heard a suggestion which sounded fair- military ribbons on USAF-style uniforms, and the HMSA on CAP distinctive.

I also don't like the AFA,AFSA, VFW ribbons....if we really want to have a cadet enlisted/nco/officer of the year program then let's get our own.

I agree- however, I think the benefit of this is (I believe) the costs associated with this award are borne by the presenting organization. This is something *extra* in JROTC, on top of established Top Cadet awards- I think we need our own as well. Commanders can choose to simply not utilize these awards already, so if CAP had Top Cadet awards, that option could be exercised as necessary.

I would also eliminate the option to wear ROTC/JROTC ribbons.

*Sniff* Awwww.
Eh, I don't particularly wear them for ribbonage- mostly I use them as filler so I don't have to buy new ribbon bars (so that I only increase in rows of three), or switch them out randomly to confuse folks (It says any three may be worn, otherwise only program precedence must be followed).

I would follow the USAF's program and only have a ribbon for the "12 outstand cadets of the year".
I was a base level NCO of the year winner while on AD.....all I got was a plaque....I got more for being the Squadron NCO of the quarter!

I have no knowledge/experience of/with this, so no comment.

[lordmonar]

I would support the military service ribbon if we eliminated the option to wear military ribbons.

I know you are retired military sir, so I am not attempting to argue or act as if I have ANY military experience. That said, I heard a suggestion which sounded fair- military ribbons on USAF-style uniforms, and the HMSA on CAP distinctive.

Ahh...but you touched one of my other buttons.....same rules no matter which uniform you wear. (I think we all need to be in one uniform...but that is for another thread.  )

[arajca]

I fleshed out the graphics and added a few more notes. The I selected the particular ribbons with two criteria - 1. Not a military ribbon and 2. I liked it. As long a 1. is met, I'm not stuck on any, except HMSA.

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[Eclipse]

Here's a crazy idea...see if you can stay with me on this...

How about...

...we wear CAP ribbons for CAP-related service on our CAP uniforms, and leave the decorations from other services for them to wear on their respective (and respected uniforms).

I know crazy.

[SarDragon]

Frames are a PITA. Seriously. Asking cadets to get them right, even given the specific award for being high-speed, is just asking for trouble.

YMMV.

[flyboy53]

Here's a crazy idea...see if you can stay with me on this...

How about...

...we wear CAP ribbons for CAP-related service on our CAP uniforms, and leave the decorations from other services for them to wear on their r
espective (and respected uniforms).

I know crazy.

No, not crazy. How about no ribbons at all.

As I've progressed through the CAP Program, the ribbons have meant less and less to the point where I only wear my military stuff and only one CAP badge...senior observer wings.

I know it's hard for a non-military member to understand, but a military service ribbon is just another stupid CAP ribbon that palls in comparison to the various awards, decorations, ribbons and service medals that a military member brings in terms of personal honor and credibility to this organization. I have a Wilson Award and four Commander's Commendations and don't wear the ribbons because my military stuff means so much more. I've also found that my military stuff does more sometimes to motivate a cadet than all the CAP stuff.

Here's another point to consider, I wonder sometimes if the quest to create all these ribbons isn't another ploy on the part of NHQ to get the membership to buy them so NHQ gets their cut....call it my personal revolt to certain policies. Otherwise, create more bling and then limit the source where it can be purchased from. Quite a vicious circle, don't you think.

It's happened before, the CAP moved from military-looking ribbons back in the early 1960s because the Army Heraldry folks didn't have time to work on them. As result we ended up with what were best described as comic-looking ribbons for both cadets and senior members. Those laminated ribbons were a trip. If they were exposed to the sun for long periods, they'd actually "melt" or unfold and drop off the ribbon bars...another expense for CAP members.

The bigger joke is that they don't go away. The latest CAP Volunteer Magazine had a photo of a female officer wearing an original find ribbon that's supposed to be long obsolete.

In reference to the original entry, however, I would eliminate things like a Superior Service Medal, limit it to one kind of Achievement Medal, and narrow down the field of activity ribbons to one or two, possibly with special devices.

[RickFranz]

Here's a crazy idea...see if you can stay with me on this...

How about...

...we wear CAP ribbons for CAP-related service on our CAP uniforms, and leave the decorations from other services for them to wear on their respective (and respected uniforms).

I know crazy.

I would have to say I'm with you on that one.  What you have done somewhere else has very little to do with CAP.  I have all my AF ribbons in a very nice shadow box.  I guess when and if the CSU goes away I will build another shadow box for all my CAP ribbons.

As for the plastic encased ribbons, I wore those for the 6 years I was a cadet and did not have any of the problems with  them melting off the ribbon rack despite living in the Desert Southwest.

[arajca]

I know it's hard for a non-military member to understand, but a military service ribbon is just another stupid CAP ribbon that palls in comparison to the various awards, decorations, ribbons and service medals that a military member brings in terms of personal honor and credibility to this organization.

I guess it's hard for you to understand that CAP ribbons are important to...CAP members. Many of whom don't know what the military fruit salad you are wearing means, and most likely don't care. When I see a CAP member with a bunch of military awards and no CAP awards, my impression is they have no respect for CAP, despite being a member. Those who wear both show they have an understanding of CAP AND, more importantly, they respect what CAP offers.

If the AF or NB came down tomorrow and banned military awards on ALL CAP uniforms, that'd be fine.

[Eclipse]

I have to go with Arajca on this.

Everyone is allowed to value and respect whatever they want, but don't back-handedly devalue my service by insinuating yours is somehow "better".  Comparing a non-combatant service to a combatant one in that way simply means you don't understand either one.

[Hawk200]

I guess it's hard for you to understand that CAP ribbons are important to...CAP members. Many of whom don't know what the military fruit salad you are wearing means, and most likely don't care. When I see a CAP member with a bunch of military awards and no CAP awards, my impression is they have no respect for CAP, despite being a member. Those who wear both show they have an understanding of CAP AND, more importantly, they respect what CAP offers.

If the AF or NB came down tomorrow and banned military awards on ALL CAP uniforms, that'd be fine.

And on the other hand, many CAP members don't understand that military decorations are important to everyone in the military. It means something to us.

There are CAP members that show absolute jealousy towards military ribbons and try to tell those members that they shouldn't wear them. That's disrespect to military service. If you're going to throw the respect card out, keep in mind that it goes both ways.

[Eclipse]

No one should be disrespecting anyone, if you want to wear them, fine, but how does it make sense for someone with 15 years in CAP
and 4 in the military to be displaying only military ribbons?  What does that say about their opinion of CAP?

The fact that military decorations and badges are allowed at all is an anomaly of our status as a military auxiliary - that same status which is often cited as "wannabeeism" towards members who seek that affiliation as a value of their membership.

[Hawk200]

No one should be disrespecting anyone, if you want to wear them, fine, but how does it make sense for someone with 15 years in CAP and 4 in the military to be displaying only military ribbons?

No, it doesn't make sense.

What does that say about their opinion of CAP?

Doesn't say anything about their opinion of CAP. The impression I might get is that they haven't bothered to get any CAP ribbons lately, or they're taking the easy route by throwing their military rack on their CAP uniform. I did the same thing when I rejoined (after a five year break) until I got more CAP ribbons to add.

The fact that military decorations and badges are allowed at all is an anomaly of our status as a military auxiliary - that same status which is often cited as "wannabeeism" towards members who seek that affiliation as a value of their membership.

Most branches allow the wear of other branch awards and decs, allowing military awards on a CAP uniform is not without a precedent. The awards are allowed on our mother organization's uniform, it is a natural progression to allow it on the auxiliary uniform. No real anomoly there.

Not really comprehending the "wannabeism" angle. People that want CAP ribbons to look like Air Force ones could be "wannabeism", that I can follow. If that's not what you mean, then clarify.

People need to quit placing artificial values on military awards, decs, and badges. They show what a person has done or currently does, nothing more.  Someone having more ribbons than someone else has simply done more. 

[Eclipse]

Not really comprehending the "wannabeism" angle. People that want CAP ribbons to look like Air Force ones could be "wannabeism", that I can follow. If that's not what you mean, then clarify.

There is an underlying thread here and elsewhere that if one of the reasons you joined CAP was for the uniform and military affiliation than you are a wannabe of the highest order.  This was/is prevalent in the discussions about the CSU, for example.

Many members are bent they can't wear military ribbons on the corporate variants but then get uppity about CAP not being a military branch.

[Hawk200]

Not really comprehending the "wannabeism" angle. People that want CAP ribbons to look like Air Force ones could be "wannabeism", that I can follow. If that's not what you mean, then clarify.

There is an underlying thread here and elsewhere that if one of the reasons you joined CAP was for the uniform and military affiliation than you are a wannabe of the highest order.  This was/is prevalent in the discussions about the CSU, for example.

I see what you're saying. I've never believed that joining CAP was wannabeism, although I do see wannabeism from some CAP members.

The problem is the false logic that some people use. Theory: there are "wannabes" in CAP, so all  CAP members are wannabe's. It doesn't work any more than the concept that all welfare recipients are lazy drug users.

Many members are bent they can't wear military ribbons on the corporate variants but then get uppity about CAP not being a military branch.

I've seen the issue of military ribbons not being allowed. Unfortunately, those members don't seem to get the fact that it isn't up to CAP, it's up to the branches. If the branch says no, then it's no. I don't agree with it, but that's irrelevant. Whether or not CAP is a military branch doesn't matter.

[Major Carrales]

I was digusted by comments made about the CAP awards and ribbons are, somehow, meaningless; but was made whole again by some of the replies.

The thing comes out like this... CAP Awards have as much value as any award given anywhere for anything.   They are the awards and decorations of the organization.  The "pit fall" being made in this thread is that same old one where people try to make the specious comparison between CAP and the US Military (or any given organization out there from the Salvation Army to Masons to the Knights of Columbus) 

The additional "widget" in this thread is the awards of the US Military.  I would say that lay citizens are more likely to place a degree of importance on Military Awards simply because of the nature of them.  Many lay civilians simply look at the awards as earned for heroic service, I know a few that, when looking at some CAP ribbons I was wearing closely we amazed to find out that the "brick" was in fact made up of individual ribbons and that some, in turn, reflected a some medal.

One could also apply some of the comments on the worth and worthiness of CAP ribbons to those of the military.  Not all Military ribbons are awarded for heroic action.  Some are simply for because you were "there for so long," others might be for simply "not getting in trouble" for a give time, and some represent that you were in active service during a time of conflict, yet, were the base cook at some States-side installation (a worthy place with its own honor, but not worthy of a Bronze Star in itself.)

I am sure some might take offense at what I presented in the previous paragraph, but no more so than any similar paragraph bashing CAP awards.

Fact is, CAP awards have their worth as defined by the CAP organization.  Some have been awarded for truely outstanding work, some, even, where CAP people have give their life in the service of CAP.  A Red Service Ribbon with a 40 on it is nothing to sneeze at either, especially if that person was active for all that time with out pay.

Keep it real people...

[Major Carrales]

Not really comprehending the "wannabeism" angle. People that want CAP ribbons to look like Air Force ones could be "wannabeism", that I can follow. If that's not what you mean, then clarify.

There is an underlying thread here and elsewhere that if one of the reasons you joined CAP was for the uniform and military affiliation than you are a wannabe of the highest order.  This was/is prevalent in the discussions about the CSU, for example.

I see what you're saying. I've never believed that joining CAP was wannabeism, although I do see wannabeism from some CAP members.

The problem is the false logic that some people use. Theory: there are "wannabes" in CAP, so all  CAP members are wannabe's. It doesn't work any more than the concept that all welfare recipients are lazy drug users.

Many members are bent they can't wear military ribbons on the corporate variants but then get uppity about CAP not being a military branch.

I've seen the issue of military ribbons not being allowed. Unfortunately, those members don't seem to get the fact that it isn't up to CAP, it's up to the branches. If the branch says no, then it's no. I don't agree with it, but that's irrelevant. Whether or not CAP is a military branch doesn't matter.

Are you telling me that there are not people on the Military and Reserves that who might be "wannabes" as well?  I've known a few folks that have gone off the the Army and such and returned spouting all sorts of things I know to be false...one fellow, even disciplined for it.

There will always, in every activity, be individuals that will "hound" for glory and "avoid" the work.  There will be those that join to "impress the ladies" or "get free College" who never even think they might have to serve and who might be annoyed by the prospect.

There are, thankfully, more of the sort that value the service and "want to be" there to accomplish and satisfy the true need to serve their Community, State and Nation as Soliders, Airmen, Sailors, Marines, fire fighters, police officers, teachers and the list goes on.

We must all mind what we say about service...

[Hawk200]

Are you telling me that there are not people on the Military and Reserves that who might be "wannabes" as well?

The simple logic is that you're not a military "wannabe" if you're in the military. Guardsmen and Reservists are in the military.

I've known a few folks that have gone off the the Army and such and returned spouting all sorts of things I know to be false...one fellow, even disciplined for it.

Different issue. The person isn't a "wannabe", they're a liar.

There will always, in every activity, be individuals that will "hound" for glory and "avoid" the work.  There will be those that join to "impress the ladies" or "get free College" who never even think they might have to serve and who might be annoyed by the prospect.

Agreed. And I've dealt with the "I just joined for college, I shouldn't be here" types. Try supervising them, that's enough to make you want to pull your hair out.

There are, thankfully, more of the sort that value the service and "want to be" there to accomplish and satisfy the true need to serve their Community, State and Nation as Soliders, Airmen, Sailors, Marines, fire fighters, police officers, teachers and the list goes on.

We all serve differently. I've run into people that expressed sorry that they didn't join, somehow thinking they were less of a person than I was because I served and they don't. I don't understand the concept, it's just not something I can wrap my head around. No one is inferior to me because they didn't wear a uniform.

People can serve their communities in ways that don't involve a uniform. A common phrase is "They also serve, who stand and watch." The members of the Air Warning Service (later becoming the Ground Observer Corps) didn't wear a uniform, didn't enlist, didn't carry weapons; but they still served.

People don't need to be police, or firefighters, or EMS to serve. You can do that with a Neighborhood Watch. Or, as a member of Civil Air Patrol.

[Hawk200]

I just realized how far this drift went, so I 'll address the OP.

Wilson and Spaatz medals? I wouldn't agree. Keep them, but don't categorize them as medals.

Longevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.

Combine Recruiter ribbons: Definitely. No real point to have separate ones. Pick a number for both sides of the membership, and be done with it.

Basic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.

"Campaign" awards: Another concept I like, but not the name. We don't have campaigns in CAP. To minimize a bunch of separate ribbons, I would suggest a device for the specific incident. If someone gets another one under their belt, they have the option of going with a different device or instead going with stars or leaves (but now both, it's either worn with one incident name device or with multiple attachments).

That's the strong ones. Anything else I could live with.

[Major Carrales]

Are you telling me that there are not people on the Military and Reserves that who might be "wannabes" as well?

The simple logic is that you're not a military "wannabe" if you're in the military. Guardsmen and Reservists are in the military.

I think it is a state of mind more than is admitted.  I suppose I could join the Texas National Guard, have a short, lack lusture, "did the bear minimums" and unremarkable career at it...then return here as a EXPERT because I had been in the military.  Would I then be a "wannabe" for being in the Civil Air Patrol?  or, posses any more worth because I slept on a military installation for a number of years?

I am in awe of those that served.  I am in shadow of those whose service was heroic and born of the stuff that is worthy of US military Awards and Decoration.  Thse awards have worth for what they are, and so does their service.  However, there are geat things done in CAP which CAP Awards recognize.  I will not have that belitted out of specious comparison.  That "comparsion" is as favorite past time of the CAPTALKER.

Also, to illustrate this further...

I have 13 years in the Civil Air Patrol, 12 of which I was extremely active.  I've mentored Cadets that went on to bigger and better things who would have likely died in gangs otherwise, been to Hurricane relief efforts, been to REDCAPS and helped to make my part of CAP better than it was (and much , much more).  Others here have done more and could list it.  All of it from a "heart of service" with no pay, while holding down a family and a full time job.  Yet, despite all that...there are those that belittle that service as some sort "wannabe."  There are even others that will look down on me and those like me as "second class" in every way because I did not serve in the military. 

I will likely never have the opportunity to wear US military awards on my CAP uniform...so I have no dog in the fight...but I will fight for those that can wear them to wear them and I will make it known to those that would not that CAP decorations are not somehow FAKE or SECOND CLASS.