Hypothetical Service Dress Change - put us in 1 uniform!

[Shuman 14]

My big problem with the BBDU is that it is the uniform of numerous SWAT teams around the country. The last thing that I want is to be recognized by the public is a SWAT team member.

I concur.

So an additional change we might request is to change the patrol cap from OCP pattern to Blue. I've seen some State Defense Forces use Black patrol caps to add an additional distinction between themselves and the Federal Forces, adding the Blue patrol cap would blend nicely with our Blue tapes, ranks and badges without looking out of place.

As been suggested many times before, perhaps going a different way with an Olive drab uniform, either in BDU or OCP cut and style, would be a better option. I've looked online and can also find tan and coyote tactical uniforms in addition to Olive so any of those might be an option, again with Blue accoutrements and full color patches.

Martial, practical, available and distinct... yet separate from the USAF. Just a thought.

[biomed441]

I feel any martial style of uniform will lend us to get confused with someone, be it police, military, etc... From a practical standpoint, our polo uniform with tactical pants is a perfectly functional uniform for field work.  We just run into the "what do the cadets wear".  OCPs are worn by AF JROTC with the only visual distinctions being full color patches, full color specialized cadet insignia, and the branch tape reading AF JROTC.  I don't see why CAP has to be treated special in that regard. Low light at a distance and your AF JROTC cadets are getting confused with Active duty. 

That said seniors could be just fine in OCPs.  Id even ague removal of the blue name tapes and go OCP but use white thread and white / gold rank, full color patches, and a black or dark blue ball cap. I feel like if we are the Auxiliary of the AF, why should we not be treated in the same regard as high school kids in an ROTC program... we already have the same changes, plus extra to our uniforms.  If that's not distinctive enough I don't know what is.  And with OCPs being worn by 3 service branches now... I still don't understand the claim that its a USAF uniform.  Nothing we have on our uniform identifies us as Air Force.  Its as much an Army uniform as it is the AF.  Its also a police uniform and a state guard uniform.  Our branch is CIVIL AIR PATROL.  OCPs are commercially available.  Height/weight shouldn't apply to it.  This logic is lost on me. ABUs made sense.  I Don't get it with OCPs. 

On the actual topic discussion for dress uniforms.  This is more difficult than the OCPs in my opinion, but we can manage our own uniform there too.  Allow cadets to remain in the USAF Blue uniform.  I'll give the AF Credit here as it is exclusively their uniform. They want us to meet height/weight ok, noted.  So let the Seniors have their own uniform as mentioned, adopt a heritage style uniform using modified AGSUs as they become more affordable with a long phase in period. The army seems a bit more lienient on who does and does not wear their uniforms.  And if that doesn't work, clean up the corporate uniform. Standardize the cut and color of allowed pants, belts, and shoes.  Find something a bit more military than the current corporate blazer. Could probably find a police or fire department coat and have the badge loop removed or something.  Lots of ways to go about it. I may research that.   

[skymaster]

That said seniors could be just fine in OCPs.  Id even ague removal of the blue name tapes and go OCP but use white thread and white / gold rank, full color patches, and a black or dark blue ball cap. I feel like if we are the Auxiliary of the AF, why should we not be treated in the same regard as high school kids in an ROTC program... we already have the same changes, plus extra to our uniforms.  If that's not distinctive enough I don't know what is.  And with OCPs being worn by 3 service branches now... I still don't understand the claim that its a USAF uniform.  Nothing we have on our uniform identifies us as Air Force.  Its as much an Army uniform as it is the AF.  Its also a police uniform and a state guard uniform.  Our branch is CIVIL AIR PATROL.  OCPs are commercially available.  Height/weight shouldn't apply to it.  This logic is lost on me. ABUs made sense.  I Don't get it with OCPs.

It is funny that you should mention that pattern of nametape. For members of CAP serving as members of the Georgia State Guard Air Force on state missions, back in the late 1960s and early 1970s when CAP wore the OG-107 Olive Green field uniform, the "state distinctive" GSGAF field uniform for CAP members was the same as the Georgia Air National Guard, but with off-white letters on the name and branch tape having the same olive drab color as the uniform, with full color grade insignia embroidered on a uniform-matching olive drab background. These days, the current Georgia State Guard Air and Space Force uniform is OCPs (just like the Georgia State Defense Force), with blue on OCP background name and branch tapes, with full color patches for additional distinctiveness. While it does somewhat resemble the U.S. Space Force uniform, the State of Georgia actually approved this uniform variant a couple of years BEFORE the USSF even existed. It is actually a great and comfortable uniform, and great for dual-status CAP/GSGASF members since, due to the 1942 agreement between the War Department, the State of Georgia, CAP, the National Guard Bureau, and the U.S. Army Air Forces, CAP personnel are appointed one grade higher than their highest-served CAP grade unless the member also holds another legally recognized grade higher than their CAP grade from any other source, when acting in State of Georgia service. The Adjutant General feels that the the uniform should be professional and minimally distinctive for the State forces, and he is the final approval authority for forces under state command, including State Guard/State Defense Force personnel. 

[biomed441]

It is funny that you should mention that pattern of nametape. For members of CAP serving as members of the Georgia State Guard Air Force on state missions, back in the late 1960s and early 1970s when CAP wore the OG-107 Olive Green field uniform, the "state distinctive" GSGAF field uniform for CAP members was the same as the Georgia Air National Guard, but with off-white letters on the name and branch tape having the same olive drab color as the uniform, with full color grade insignia embroidered on a uniform-matching olive drab background. These days, the current Georgia State Guard Air and Space Force uniform is OCPs (just like the Georgia State Defense Force), with blue on OCP background name and branch tapes, with full color patches for additional distinctiveness. While it does somewhat resemble the U.S. Space Force uniform, the State of Georgia actually approved this uniform variant a couple of years BEFORE the USSF even existed. It is actually a great and comfortable uniform, and great for dual-status CAP/GSGASF members since, due to the 1942 agreement between the War Department, the State of Georgia, CAP, the National Guard Bureau, and the U.S. Army Air Forces, CAP personnel are appointed one grade higher than their highest-served CAP grade unless the member also holds another legally recognized grade higher than their CAP grade from any other source, when acting in State of Georgia service. The Adjutant General feels that the the uniform should be professional and minimally distinctive for the State forces, and he is the final approval authority for forces under state command, including State Guard/State Defense Force personnel.

Exactly my point on this.  The precedent is set loud and clear in regard to OCP use and distinctiveness.  It makes me wonder if the rumor mill of why we don't have OCP approval really is the USAF or if its internal CAP further manufacturing the excessive distinctive requirements and the AF hasn't even seen a proposal yet.  Hard to tell without actually being on the board for these decisions.  Don't get me wrong here, I don't particularly care if we get OCPs or not. I'd like to get away from ABUs regardless and Id like us ALL in one field uniform.  The OCP distinctiveness argument eludes me and the examples you provided with the state guard, and I can find many many others in the same boat... It just makes me think the CAP uniform transitions really may just be CAP being its own enemy.  I could be wrong, but as far as OCPs go, that's what it looks like to me. 

Service dress on the other hand like mentioned in a previous post is a USAF uniform. We can't do anything about that.  I do however think that on the corporate side, our dress uniforms shouldn't be dictated by the USAF. So long as we are not using USAF uniform items its our option.   We can easily modify the aviator to be more martial.  Keep the grey pants, there are commercially available sources for military-style dress coats, while note cheap, the option is there and could be an optional item for members to offset cost for those who need/want it.  Isolate the grey pants source so we all match. Black web-belt like the army uses but with a silver buckle so we again, all match there.  Black dress shoes.  From there its just figuring out if we want to keep the grey slides or go with hard rank etc... Either way its distinctive enough from the USAF, wouldn't be subject to H/W.   

I do remember though the old CSU uniform (the double breasted suit) that we got in hot water for.  Wasn't a fan of it, but agree with the premise. If anyone remembers why it causes a problem chime in. Was it because certain USAF uniform items were used and that created the issues?  Would like to avoid that of course.

[Shuman 14]

Black web-belt like the army uses but with a silver buckle

So, you mean the US Navy Enlisted Trouser Belt?

Black dress shoes.

So, you mean standard Military Low Quarters.

Unless of course someone has an orthopedic issue that precludes wearing that type of shoe.

our dress uniforms shouldn't be dictated by the USAF

I have to disagree with you there, as we are the official auxiliary of the USAF that is a 100% within the purview and authority of the Air Force to dictate what we can and cannot wear when we represent them.


 

[wacapgh]

I do remember though the old CSU uniform (the double breasted suit) that we got in hot water for.  Wasn't a fan of it, but agree with the premise. If anyone remembers why it causes a problem chime in. Was it because certain USAF uniform items were used and that created the issues?  Would like to avoid that of course.

It was a while ago (early 2000's?), but I remember hearing that it was just "Authorized" without USAF being notified. HWSNBN?

[biomed441]

Black web-belt like the army uses but with a silver buckle

So, you mean the US Navy Enlisted Trouser Belt?

Black dress shoes.

So, you mean standard Military Low Quarters.

Unless of course someone has an orthopedic issue that precludes wearing that type of shoe.

our dress uniforms shouldn't be dictated by the USAF

I have to disagree with you there, as we are the official auxiliary of the USAF that is a 100% within the purview and authority of the Air Force to dictate what we can and cannot wear when we represent them.

Yes to the belts and shoes.  Didn't realize the navy uniform was actually black and not just a super dark shade of blue. Not up to speed on my navy uniforms that's for sure. 

I definitely get the USAF AUX status and thus the USAF has say in our uniforms.  I just wonder how much actual control they should have over our corporates.  I don't think we should go behind their back and change things without their input, as to you point we are representing them as an Auxiliary, but I would think some level of autonomy in our ability to make decisions for our members is warranted as we are not just the USAF Auxiliary.  Perhaps we do have that autonomy and its just my perception from the outside looking in though?  Purely speculation on my part.  A repeat of the CSU is obviously not what I would want and if it was a case as Greg pointed out of it just being we didn't tell the USAF... yeah keep them in the loop that we need a new uniform that all members can wear.

How does the CGAux pull this off with all their members in the modified coast guard uniforms? Does the CG just not care as much, or do they infact care more and appreciate the appearance of everyone looking the same.

[Shuman 14]

How does the CGAux pull this off with all their members in the modified coast guard uniforms? Does the CG just not care as much, or do they in fact, care more and appreciate the appearance of everyone looking the same.

The USCG truly appreciates the help. To a certain extent, when they have five bodies on duty and 20 free workers show up to assist, they really don't care if they are overweight or have a full beard.

As long as you, your uniform, and your boots are neat, clean and properly fitting (to you), please come and help.

I've never seen a USCG Petty Officer, Chief or Commissioned/Warrant Officer have a case of the @ZZ with an Auxiliarist's uniform. It's always a firm handshake and a "Thank you" for coming out to assist.

USCG vs USAF, different mission, different goals, and different ideas on what an Auxiliary can/should do.

[maholtzclaw]

Great topic! One thing we can count on in this and other organizations is change!

[RiverAux]

Never fear, the Coast Guard is starting to move the CG Aux out of uniforms that are very closely paired with the AD/Res uniform.  This is initially being presented as much more distinctive differences in the soon to be adopted Coast Guard Working Uniform and the formalization of the Alternative Working Uniform.  They won't even make CGWU in larger sizes, which will force some Auxies into the AWU and I wouldn't be surprised if it won't be long until the AWU is the only "fatigue" uniform authorized.

I will say that at least the CG has somewhat better reasons for making such modifications. The CAP uniform doesn't even have the words Air Force on it and they're hot and bothered about making it more distinctive than it already is.  At least CG Aux and CG often work together more closely providing more opportunities for confusion.  And, the public often confused Auxies for CG, but I don't see that changing so long as "Coast Guard" is somewhere on the uniform - since no one has any idea what a CG uniform looks like anyway. 

[SarDragon]

Regarding corporate uniforms, all of the armed forces have specific rules about wearing uniform items on civilian clothing. The Air Force considers corporate uniforms as civilian clothes, and has given us guidance on what may or may not be worn on them. One example is military ribbons - not allowed. This has some enforcement potential. AF makes the rules; we are expected to follow them.

I'm sure someone is going to bring up all the veterans wearing their ribbons on civilian clothing. I have no answer for that. According to various military regulations, it's verboten, but enforcement is essentially nonexistent.

[biomed441]

The USCG truly appreciates the help. To a certain extent, when they have five bodies on duty and 20 free workers show up to assist, they really don't care if they are overweight or have a full beard.

As long as you, your uniform, and your boots are neat, clean and properly fitting (to you), please come and help.

I've never seen a USCG Petty Officer, Chief or Commissioned/Warrant Officer have a case of the @ZZ with an Auxiliarist's uniform. It's always a firm handshake and a "Thank you" for coming out to assist.

USCG vs USAF, different mission, different goals, and different ideas on what an Auxiliary can/should do.

That does make a lot of sense.  I don't know much about the CGAux but the little I have seen is there's a much more integrated set of missions with Aux and active/res guard working with each other.   CAP it seems we get our missions from a distance and not a whole lot of direct interaction with the USAF with exception to a few select missions that the vast majority of our members do not or cannot participate in. 

[biomed441]

I will say that at least the CG has somewhat better reasons for making such modifications. The CAP uniform doesn't even have the words Air Force on it and they're hot and bothered about making it more distinctive than it already is.  At least CG Aux and CG often work together more closely providing more opportunities for confusion.  And, the public often confused Auxies for CG, but I don't see that changing so long as "Coast Guard" is somewhere on the uniform - since no one has any idea what a CG uniform looks like anyway. 

This is where I genuinely would like to see the notes on our uniform decisions.  Is it really the USAF getting hot and bothered or is it CAP still holding onto mistakes made decades ago and just saying its the USAF to deflect off their own decisions and keep CAP members off their back. Its a lot easier to say "The USAF wont let us".  If I was a USAF member in charge of making decisions regarding an auxiliary, yes, I'd want distinction, but I also wouldn't want an auxiliary service to look like nascar drivers and I'd take consideration that the auxiliary doesn't have a strenuous physical fitness requirement because they're VOLUNTEERS.  If I want them in my uniform, then I need to give consideration for that. 

If the reason for distinction is for the general public to know the difference. That's a failed effort.  The general public knows very little about military uniforms. CAP members get confused for all branchers of service. I've been confused with the Army, Navy, foreign military.  It will happen regardless.

If the reason for distinction is for active/guard/reserve and other branches to know the difference... YMMV but from personal experience, I've been confused for all of the above as well by our own AF personnel.

[TheSkyHornet]

Maybe I'm just cranky today...

We have a new uniform post on this forum on a monthly basis. It always ends up circulating around a debate over why we wear camouflage for search and rescue, if senior members should wear the same uniform as cadets, and why the Air Force just can't let us have their current uniform so we can fix all of these supply issues.

What is the point of this thread? Is it a grievance of uniform opinions to people who have absolutely no say, hoping to get the masses to rise up and do something about it...? Or is it in prayer that the National Uniform Committee is reading through these comments to take those great ideas into action in some dark underground bunker where all of the future uniform samples are neatly displayed in lieu of guidons?

Air Force-style uniforms are expensive. The scarcity of ABUs makes it difficult to plan for recruitment and the physical growth of younger members. We're in agreement. There is a large faction of adult members who don't qualify to wear any Air Force-style uniform combination. And we confuse the heck out of ourselves and everyone else trying to live via a dozen different uniform styles, much of which is actually rarely worn on the day-to-day or week-to-week. I mean I just had a 20-minute conversation with someone that I was wearing the wrong polo, which I insisted was not black but a shade of dark blue. I felt like Borat!

There are zero things on this message board that are going to change any of that.

As someone who spent my first year in CAP griping about everything and demanding that we have better, more modern uniforms, let's move on already. Take it up your chain because the public reading this forum truly doesn't care nor have any weight in the matter.

[Shuman 14]

Regarding corporate uniforms, all of the armed forces have specific rules about wearing uniform items on civilian clothing. The Air Force considers corporate uniforms as civilian clothes, and has given us guidance on what may or may not be worn on them. One example is military ribbons - not allowed. This has some enforcement potential. AF makes the rules; we are expected to follow them.

I'm sure someone is going to bring up all the veterans wearing their ribbons on civilian clothing. I have no answer for that. According to various military regulations, it's verboten, but enforcement is essentially nonexistent.

It was previously put out in this Thread that rule/regulation preventing the wear of military decorations and badges on Corporate Uniforms had been rescinded.

Quoting from the Thread itself:

There were a bunch of breakouts, in true CAPTALK fashion I suspected the one on uniforms was the most important topic being covered. The current and several past uniform board chairs were there. It was explained that a package has been submitted to the USAF requesting authorization for CAP to wear the OCP uniform with tan boots and the option to sew or use velcro with name/CAP tapes. There is no estimate as to when the USAF will approve or deny the request (apparently the USAF is a bit busy with more important matters). If the USAF requests changes to better differentiate CAP members from USAF members then it will take even longer. Also it was approved that military ribbons will be allowed on the white aviator shirt.

Further discussion in the Thread stated:

"Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 03, 2024, 09:20:36 PM
Be interesting to see if the mil ribbons on corporates carries on to mil badges on BBDUs too. I wouldn't mind tossing my wings on my BlueDUs."

That question was asked and answered, however, not specific to BBDUs, but corporates in general.

"Any military awards and badges earned through military service  may be worn."

Remember, it was stated they this is APPROVED but NOT PUBLISHED as 1 March.

[biomed441]

Maybe I'm just cranky today...

We have a new uniform post on this forum on a monthly basis. It always ends up circulating around a debate over why we wear camouflage for search and rescue, if senior members should wear the same uniform as cadets, and why the Air Force just can't let us have their current uniform so we can fix all of these supply issues.

What is the point of this thread? Is it a grievance of uniform opinions to people who have absolutely no say, hoping to get the masses to rise up and do something about it...? Or is it in prayer that the National Uniform Committee is reading through these comments to take those great ideas into action in some dark underground bunker where all of the future uniform samples are neatly displayed in lieu of guidons?

Air Force-style uniforms are expensive. The scarcity of ABUs makes it difficult to plan for recruitment and the physical growth of younger members. We're in agreement. There is a large faction of adult members who don't qualify to wear any Air Force-style uniform combination. And we confuse the heck out of ourselves and everyone else trying to live via a dozen different uniform styles, much of which is actually rarely worn on the day-to-day or week-to-week. I mean I just had a 20-minute conversation with someone that I was wearing the wrong polo, which I insisted was not black but a shade of dark blue. I felt like Borat!

There are zero things on this message board that are going to change any of that.

As someone who spent my first year in CAP griping about everything and demanding that we have better, more modern uniforms, let's move on already. Take it up your chain because the public reading this forum truly doesn't care nor have any weight in the matter.

I was waiting for this post to show up.  I started this post because, while yes, its been discussed before, new ideas show up from time to time. I had an idea that I wasn't sure was brought up with considering a heritage style uniform that ALL members could wear that was martial in appearance, connected to our roots, and looked good and was not controlled by the USAF.  I wanted opinion on practicality, thoughts, issues, would it be a well received design or would most people not like a heritage uniform and want a different direction? 

This forum serves as a point to "discuss" things.  The idea that "it was discussed already so we should never talk about it again" is a very popular mindest, but it also stifles any kind of potential progress. 

The "take it up the chain" idea is the approach when you want it to actually change.  But, having been a commander in CAP of several units, and in my day-to-day where I manage large numbers of people who have their own thoughts and Ideas; that's not the go-to to just ask a question.  I've had members in CAP ask about uniform changes, ES policies procedures etc... and here's the thing. I wasn't going to pass anything up the chain unless I had a well thought out, documented, with sources, well researched proposal.  You cant expect to submit a F120 up the chain for a Medal of Valor and only put "Capt Joe Bob did a cool thing" and expect it to make it for consideration.  Same would go for a formal uniform proposal. Yes, it needs to go up the chain but I wouldn't expect the NUC to even give it a glance without some real work going into it. 

CAPTALK is a discussion forum and as such is a way to get some access to membership viewpoints, yours included which would be useful when making a formal proposal or determination if a proposal may need more research into other considerations that might be brought up.   

So no, this isn't a post to force change or hope someone on NUC is listening.  If i wanted to go straight to the NUC, I could easily do so but it would be in vain.  Here, I can have conversations with members, current, past etc... and see where minds are currently.  I'm not looking for "approval" here.  I'm looking for ideas.  Now sometimes the train derails a little. Yeah OCPs/field uniforms got brought up when this was about a single dress uniform, but that is part of discussion.   

Take it up the chain is for when you have a solution, not a cop out for when you want a change but don't want to make the effort to do it yourself.  I'm doing some research. That's the point of this post. 

[biomed441]

Regarding corporate uniforms, all of the armed forces have specific rules about wearing uniform items on civilian clothing. The Air Force considers corporate uniforms as civilian clothes, and has given us guidance on what may or may not be worn on them. One example is military ribbons - not allowed. This has some enforcement potential. AF makes the rules; we are expected to follow them.

I'm sure someone is going to bring up all the veterans wearing their ribbons on civilian clothing. I have no answer for that. According to various military regulations, it's verboten, but enforcement is essentially nonexistent.

It was previously put out in this Thread that rule/regulation preventing the wear of military decorations and badges on Corporate Uniforms had been rescinded.

Quoting from the Thread itself:

There were a bunch of breakouts, in true CAPTALK fashion I suspected the one on uniforms was the most important topic being covered. The current and several past uniform board chairs were there. It was explained that a package has been submitted to the USAF requesting authorization for CAP to wear the OCP uniform with tan boots and the option to sew or use velcro with name/CAP tapes. There is no estimate as to when the USAF will approve or deny the request (apparently the USAF is a bit busy with more important matters). If the USAF requests changes to better differentiate CAP members from USAF members then it will take even longer. Also it was approved that military ribbons will be allowed on the white aviator shirt.

Further discussion in the Thread stated:

"Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 03, 2024, 09:20:36 PM
Be interesting to see if the mil ribbons on corporates carries on to mil badges on BBDUs too. I wouldn't mind tossing my wings on my BlueDUs."

That question was asked and answered, however, not specific to BBDUs, but corporates in general.

"Any military awards and badges earned through military service  may be worn."

Remember, it was stated they this is APPROVED but NOT PUBLISHED as 1 March.

I missed this thread.  I know some members were upset that they couldn't wear blues and were not allowed to wear their federal decorations and awards/badges.  This is great to hear. 

[skymaster]

For a look at a possible heritage type CAP uniform, one might take a glance at the Georgia State Guard Air Force uniform as worn by a couple of officers in this 31 December 1941 photo taken at Georgia State Guard Headquarters in Atlanta by LIFE photographer William Clay Shrout. The leftmost and rightmost individuals in the photo, state-assigned Georgia Wing Commander Lt Col Robert Weeks Ferguson, and North Georgia Group Commander Lion Mason, are wearing the minimally state distinctive Air Force uniform. Distinctive in that the "U.S." collar brass has been replaced with "GA.". and the Army Air Forces silver and gold prop-and-wings branch insignia was replaced with an all silver version. (An all silver version of the same insignia was used on the Officer's flight cap in lieu of grade insignia). And, the pilot wings were the same as the the U.S. Army Air Forces, but with a small silver GA superimposed. And, the shoulder sleeve insignia was the then-current "Georgia State Defense Corps" version wing patch instead of the Georgia National Guard or Army Air Forces patch. Other than these minor distinctions, the rest of the uniform was the Army Air Forces uniform of the time, right down to the overseas service stripe on Major Mason's left sleeve above the commissioning braid. This contrasts with the OD green ground forces uniform worn by the other officers in between them worn (left to right) by Major VanDeventer (Intelligence Officer), Colonel Camp (Georgia State Guard Commander) and Major Warren (Georgia State Guard Chief of Staff). The uniforms worn by Ferguson and Mason were the first pattern uniforms worn by Georgians as a CAP uniform until later in 1942 when the Office of Civilian Defense pushed for the more civilian distinctive nationwide uniform used from 1942 through 1944 that people are more familiar with. A modern variant based on the new AGSU, similar to this, would definitely be VERY distinctive from anything that the USAF currently wears, and actually has a heritage that is part of CAP as a version of it WAS a military approved CAP uniform of the past, and honors our Army Air Forces roots. Put the current Overseas Wing patch (already a Vanguard produced item) on the shoulder, and you have a distinctive military pattern dress uniform nearly the same as the 1944 through mid-1950s CAP uniform, but made of modern materials that are more easily cared for. As a CAP reenactor, I already wear something similar to this, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to authorize something similar to this more widely as a type of dress uniform.