CAP Talk

Hey all,

So as everyone knows, the missions of CAP are Cadet Programs, Aerospace Education, and Emergency Services. Think about the promotion requirements for cadets. Leadership test, aerospace test, PT, drill test, and review board. No cadet promotion requires any kind of ES qualification. I think it should be required as I've seen far too many cadet officers have no clue about CAP's ES capabilities. Nothing much, but maybe it could look like this;

For a cadet to get their Wright Brothers, they have to have completed GenES, and for a cadet to obtain their Mitchell, they have to have their ICUT. Finally, for a cadet to obtain their Earhart, they should have GTM3/MSA/MRO/FLM/MS (they can choose one).

I understand not everyone necessarily enjoys emergency services. But it is such a crucial part of CAP, I think it is important for those climbing the ranks to have a basic understanding of ES in CAP.

What do y'all think?

Thanks,
C/Capt Meep

How would adding additional promotion barriers enhance the cadet program?

Emergency Services is only one tool upon many other tools that we use to teach cadets about themselves and how to be leaders/followers. If we added a promotion requirement for every activity of the program, cadet promotions would be worse then what they are now.

While it may be marketed as a core mission, Emergency Services is an extracurricular to
the Cadet Program, and is treated properly as such.

The goals and mission of the CP are career exploration in aviation and STEM with an emphasis
on paramilitary organizations.

ES is there for anyone to partake if they are so inclined.

GES is arguably reasonable for Wright Brothers, and in fact it's now included in QCUA, because it doesn't require any external resources to complete, however how long would you hold back a cadet from other grades who is part of a unit that has no radios, or no SETs?

Quote from: meep on February 02, 2021, 06:47:01 PMBut [ES] is such a crucial part of CAP...

IMHO, this is the fundamental flaw in your reasoning. There are places in this country where CAP is involved, and even heavily involved, in SAR and other ES functions. However, there are also places (including overseas) where CAP is all but banned from doing any real-world ES work due to any number of reasons. So requiring participation in ES in those areas where there is no CAP ES program will prevent cadets from ever achieving anything beyond Mitchell based on your criteria.

I agree that we should work ES in where practical, but it's best to leave it as a best practice or an extra item that squadrons can attempt if they want, not as a requirement that only increases the barriers to participation.

Interestingly, the last time I checked, there were far more "primarily CP" folks with ES ratings than "primarily ES" folks with a CP rating.

But we are a happy family of three missions, married now and forever by the United States Congress.  Lots of synergy generated between the missions.

Ned Lee
Cadet Program Enthusiast
("Let me tell you about CAP: a Cadet Program with Two Supporting Missions.")

Quote from: Ned on February 03, 2021, 12:17:11 AM("Let me tell you about CAP: a Cadet Program with Two Supporting Missions.")

This is shockingly accurate now that I've seen it in writing!!

~9907

I have long felt that all cadets should receive at least initial familiarization with ES.

Details would need consideration, but I  think  adding GENES completion for Mitchell and  some further qualification (choice of ICUT, MSA, GTM3, UDF, MSA, MRO, FLM) for Eaker would enhance the experience of cadets, without being burdensome or a barrier to promotion.

It would also relate to the career exploration previously mentioned, since first responder and emergency management are significant career opportunities in both the military and civil sectors.

As a long-time member, and former cadet, I must disagree. While the ES aspect is an attraction for many cadets, there are those who have zero interest. For them, aerospace is the attraction. It certainly was for me. I didn't get into ES until I had been a senior member for several years.

So lets talk about the taboo topic, the Haves and Have Nots.

If you are a new cadet in a unit with a viable ES training program, qualified trainers/evaluators, and one which regularly participates in AFAM numbered training and actual missions, you are fortunate. You have the resources and opportunity to take advantage of these advantages.  Good for you!

If you are in a "Have Not" unit, you the new cadet may not have access to a SET qualified evaluator for any specialty that under 18 cadets can qual in. In fact, possibly your unit is small, with five or so active cadets, and has zero ES qualified people at all. Your unit may be a long drive away from the nearest unit with qualified trainers. Your unit may not have available transport or SM officers who are interested and able to drive you to the required ES training events and AFAMs to become certified. Your unit may not even have a single radio. Finally, you may lack the financial ability to afford the mandatory equipment required for your specialty, including the ABU outer wear required to participate in outdoors ES in winter.  Almost all of these factors are beyond the control of the new cadets in the Have Not units, which span the gamut of CAP from rural isolated units to urban units. We won't even explore the issue of cadets with handicaps which prevent them from earning an ES rating, which would then preclude their promotion.

When we make an ES rating a mandatory gateway for promotion, we are locking out these have nots from promoting, and with the lack of promotion we lock them out from accessing NCSAs which require a Mitchell, and are locking them out from applying for scholarships and so many other opportunities. We are widening a gap rather than creating opportunities to lift up.

So lets not do that.

R/s
Spam

(PS, the preceding commentary should not be seen as an implied endorsement of leftist ideology in any way by this poster, who has spent a career since before the end of the last Cold War working on systems to take, sink, or destroy communist and extremist enemies of the free world).

In addition to some of the excellent points made above me, I also want to include a distinct reminder that the CAP Cadet Program's mission to to develop young leadership in aerospace.


CAPR 60-1, Section 1.5:

QuoteThe Cadet Program transforms youth into dynamic Americans and aerospace leaders. CAP accomplishes its Cadet Program through a curriculum of leadership, aerospace, fitness, and character. The program follows a military model and emphasizes Air Force traditions and values. Today's cadets are tomorrow's aerospace leaders.

Is it really unreasonable to have GENES added to the program? Mandatory before Mitchell. That way, if you spark some interest, the Cadet can go fill a 101.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 02, 2021, 07:30:14 PMThe goals and mission of the CP are career exploration in aviation and STEM with an emphasis
on paramilitary organizations.

Where does it say that? The CP is a leadership training program conducted in a paramilitary format. "Career exploration" is peripheral to that.


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Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on February 04, 2021, 01:13:41 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on February 02, 2021, 07:30:14 PMThe goals and mission of the CP are career exploration in aviation and STEM with an emphasis
on paramilitary organizations.

Where does it say that? The CP is a leadership training program conducted in a paramilitary format. "Career exploration" is peripheral to that.

Like he said - CAPR 60-1, Section 1.5:

See the quote above, it doesn't have to say that explicitly to be that.

Anyone can see what CAP actually is from the direction the curriculum, larger activities, and marketing
have taken over the last decade or so.

I fully support making General ES a requirement for cadets at some stage, but frankly GES needs to actually be worth a crap first.  Maybe make a GES for Cadets or something.

I didn't think about a lot of the stuff you guys mentioned. I agree now, to an extent. I still stand by my initial (modified) assertion that for a cadet to obtain their Mitchell, they should have GenEs. It doesn't require any specialized equipment, and takes around 15-20 minutes to do. It would give cadet officers a basic understanding of ES.

But I do understand the cost of adding the other quals, and I agree that no ES ratings should be needed, as it puts disadvantaged cadets further at a disadvantage.

Thank you everyone for the replies!

Quote from: SarDragon on February 04, 2021, 02:28:27 AM

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on February 04, 2021, 01:13:41 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on February 02, 2021, 07:30:14 PMThe goals and mission of the CP are career exploration in aviation and STEM with an emphasis
on paramilitary organizations.

Where does it say that? The CP is a leadership training program conducted in a paramilitary format. "Career exploration" is peripheral to that.

Like he said - CAPR 60-1, Section 1.5:

The quoted section speaks for itself. And it says nothing about "career exploration." As I said, that is peripheral to the actual purpose, which is leadership training.

"1.5. MISSION
The Cadet Program transforms youth into dynamic Americans and aerospace leaders. CAP accomplishes its Cadet Program through a curriculum of leadership, aerospace, fitness, and character. The program follows a military model and emphasizes Air Force traditions and values. Today's cadets are tomorrow's aerospace leaders."


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I wanted to add my 10 cents supporting Sardragon, Spam, and SkyHornet (posts 7, 8, and 9 respectively), especially the Have and Have Not (Spam), something I've found in other areas of CAP.  I've also experienced ES is being emphasized, to the detriment of the core cadet program.  There's certainly utility is at least getting ICUT / UDF trained, but more from the "get outdoors" aspect than anything else.  Serious ES involvement means significant investment of time and dollars, and that latter aspect is a problem for cadets - and Seniors - in the area where I live.  YMMV.

In response to the issues of "have nots", I am not advocating excluding anyone.

However, we have an obligation to seek ways tof provide worthwhile experiences to all our members, including those in areas dealing with remote location or economic challenges.

As I said in my first post, my list was offhand suggestions, not an exhaustive set of recommendations.

Here are some more suggesions: CERT, shelter management, damage assessment. There are probably other training opportunities.

The cadet program is not just about doing what you want to do...there is a strong element of community service, and both our heritage and our Congressional charter indicate that ES is a major way of providing that service.

Also, consider that my proposal applies to those who achieve cadet officer status, essentially,  those that are members for at least 3 to 5 year. I really think anyone, cadet or senior, that is a long time member should have at least initial exposure to all 3 missions to advance.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on February 06, 2021, 12:51:18 AMHere are some more suggesions: CERT, shelter management, damage assessment.

These are not CAP missions or capabilities, nor is there internal organizational expertise
or experience in these areas.  CERT is a 40+ hour in-face class that has to be completed
with a municipality or EMA, ditto for DA and similar. You can't make something like that a gateway
for progression regardless of age.

I'm not trying to nitpick your idea, but this is something
which comes up regularly and, just like the community service missions going on right now
with Covid, they aren't CAP things, and should be left to other agencies, which certainly
members should be encouraged to support, as long as there is awareness that many members
who get a taste of a real ops tempo with a local CERT or the ARC, probably won't be coming
to the annual "let's put on a SAREx in Dad's barn" because they are going to be too busy.

With that charged, message fork, thread hijack said...

I've long been an advocate for, including pressing the point when in Command roles, that
every member should be at least UDF-T.

That is an attainable legit goal, indoctrinates members to the ways of ES, and sets them
up to be able to earn Find Ribbons in what is still purported to be CAP's primary ES Mission.

Further, it costs zero, and doesn't really require much in the way of outside personnel or resources.

GES, + equipment that's already in a book bag, and a phone tree.  Those can be signed off remotely,
and accomplished in a couple of meetings as a group.

That's reasonable. Anything else is going to be an impediment to both progression and retention.

At the height of activity ES has always been an elective at best, even for adults. These days,
with the low ops tempo, if you mandated it for anyone, you're just inviting people to leave.

I say this with hundreds of dollars of uniforms, radios, and equipment sitting in tactical containers
ready for deployment and use.  It used to be that they were usually a jumble because they
were 3-R'ed so often.

Sadly I don't think they have been opened for anything but battery and MRE cycling in 10 years.

We are at some point going to have to undergo a huge marketing campaign to try and get young people interested in starting CAP or coming back.

Should we complicate things further before starting this recruiting?

Or should we spend money of a research team to figure out just what might be marketable to the young generation now?

Or should we as old geezers stick to what we've always done, and say "quality" over numbers, and just let CAP shrink away?

IDK ... just pondering whether this a good time to toughen up the Cadet program, or is it the perfect time to reinvent it?

^ NHQ has made it pretty clear that they believe the proper marketing play
is towards STEM and aviation vs. ES. This has increased significantly in the last 5 years or so.
One could imagine that NHQ will try to play somewhat on the Covid community service activities
taking place right now, and (hopefully) will cease the rhetoric about a pilot shortage, but
STEM and aviation are likely to be in the forefront going forward, as they should be, considering
that is really the CP's primary strong point right now.

Marketing ES as an actual capability and function has always been a "and you can also"
in regards to cadets which is as it should be.  Promising things that don't happen
has proven to be a great way to insure kids don't stick around.

Being as benevolent as possible, CAP's ES capability is..."evolving", and will not be stable enough
to be a primary marketing point until that..."evolution" stabilizes.  Much like the military in the 90's,
CAP is training members for missions that don't exist, with 20 year old doctrine and technology,
while at the same time pretending it is on the cutting edge of SAR and an equal member at the table.

It's not, for either, and potential cadets, especially, can smell that a mile away.

Firstly, I think I should offer a slight apology to both the OP and to ZigZag911.....I still maintain that there are serious Have / Have Not concerns in our organization, and I do align with Spam in that respect, but I jumped a bit quick, as I was reminded by Eclipse:

Quote from: Eclipse on February 06, 2021, 02:35:52 AM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on February 06, 2021, 12:51:18 AMHere are some more suggesions: CERT, shelter management, damage assessment.

I've long been an advocate for, including pressing the point when in Command roles, that
every member should be at least UDF-T.

That is an attainable legit goal, indoctrinates members to the ways of ES, and sets them
up to be able to earn Find Ribbons in what is still purported to be CAP's primary ES Mission.

Further, it costs zero, and doesn't really require much in the way of outside personnel or resources.

GES, + equipment that's already in a book bag, and a phone tree.  Those can be signed off remotely,
and accomplished in a couple of meetings as a group.

Unlike Eclipse, my only command roles have been deputy commander and a brief spell as CC but, during my time as deputy, we did commit to getting everyone trained in UDF.  It worked, and it did spark real and sustained interest in some cadets.  It is a good introduction, and it does get them working outside.  It remains as a unit goal to maintain (IIRC) at least 80% of the unit as UDF qualified.

Let's look at this as well what about the OS Units who by regulations primary purpose is the CP?  Including any type of ES req for promotions will stagnate cadets in those units.

Quote from: abdsp51 on March 19, 2021, 03:37:07 PMLet's look at this as well what about the OS Units who by regulations primary purpose is the CP?  Including any type of ES req for promotions will stagnate cadets in those units.

And school-based units.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 19, 2021, 03:54:48 PM

Quote from: abdsp51 on March 19, 2021, 03:37:07 PMLet's look at this as well what about the OS Units who by regulations primary purpose is the CP?  Including any type of ES req for promotions will stagnate cadets in those units.

And school-based units.

And cadet squadrons which, likely, have a limited senior member contingent to pull in those with ES skills.

Quote from: Paul Creed III on March 19, 2021, 04:24:27 PMAnd cadet squadrons which, likely, have a limited senior member contingent to pull in those with ES skills.

Well, in that case, GES and UDF-T are wholly attainable as they do not require an in-face
presence of an SET.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 19, 2021, 04:43:21 PM

Quote from: Paul Creed III on March 19, 2021, 04:24:27 PMAnd cadet squadrons which, likely, have a limited senior member contingent to pull in those with ES skills.

Well, in that case, GES and UDF-T are wholly attainable as they do not require an in-face
presence of an SET.

And now ask what burden that places upon the individual cadet (as well as the unit staff in following up on the matter) in having to complete numerous courses to qualify for UDF.

Obtaining trainee status is effectively useless to consider someone experienced or education in any ES qualification curriculum. I don't understand why a number of themes are to assign someone to trainee status, despite no requirement for them to actually complete the qualification (only encourage completion). It sounds like more of a permissions matter and awareness of a unit commander that the individual is in that pipeline.

CAP's outreach in schools expands a recruit population which interfaces with the goal of expanding aerospace education and STEM/cyber outreach. And while the majority of units pull in members from the local community, school-based units primarily pull from the perspective of expanding extracurricular opportunities that marinade with middle school and high school programming; and far more schools have engaged in current Cadet Programs-related subject matter (particularly in aerospace) than those who engage in community emergency/rescue subject matter.

The majority of CAP units, globally, are cadet driven within an existing curriculum of leadership and aerospace, with paramilitary influence.

Who has the statistics on how many cadets in CAP are qualified in one or more Emergency Services specialty (not just GES)? Does anyone have this data to share?

100% of cadets grades C/A1C and higher have completed at least one aerospace test. Nearly a fifth of CAP cadets have completed a comprehensive aerospace test on the first book within the cadet aerospace curriculum. I don't have any statistics on cadets who have earned a STEM or Cyber Badge (or perhaps are eligible but haven't received either, or both); I'm sure that number is lower than it should be, though.

But we really should be doing a serious comparison on Aerospace vs. Emergency Services statistics within the Cadet Program if this is going to be a serious conversation (and it's not; this is all message board debate).

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 19, 2021, 05:47:34 PMAnd now ask what burden that places upon the individual cadet (as well as the unit staff in following up on the matter) in having to complete numerous courses to qualify for UDF.

Obtaining trainee status is effectively useless to consider someone experienced or education in any ES qualification curriculum.

I'm going to throw the flag on this - the level of "burden" is essentially zero, and the
necessary materials and curriculum are online.  There's basically zero cost and maybe one 5th-week meeting.

UDF-T offers not only the indoc on ES, but it also allows for a member to participate in the mission
which is still being marketed as CAP's main function.  It also allows for those members to earn find ribbons, and even
the SAR ribbon. 

GES is also part of QCUA now.

Honestly, I've never understood why UDF-T, at least, hasn't always been mandated for all members.
You want invested members?  The stop playing games and require everyone to do something in all three
arenas, if only as part of Level 1.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 19, 2021, 06:15:33 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 19, 2021, 05:47:34 PMAnd now ask what burden that places upon the individual cadet (as well as the unit staff in following up on the matter) in having to complete numerous courses to qualify for UDF.

Obtaining trainee status is effectively useless to consider someone experienced or education in any ES qualification curriculum.

I'm going to throw the flag on this - the level of "burden" is essentially zero, and the
necessary materials and curriculum are online.  There's basically zero cost and maybe one 5th-week meeting.

UDF-T offers not only the indoc on ES, but it also allows for a member to participate in the mission
which is still being marketed as CAP's main function.  It also allows for those members to earn find ribbons, and even
the SAR ribbon. 

GES is also part of QCUA now.

Honestly, I've never understood why UDF-T, at least, hasn't always been mandated for all members.
You want invested members?  The stop playing games and require everyone to do something in all three
arenas, if only as part of Level 1.

ES doesn't interest everyone it's that simple.  Plus there are areas where ES is basically mummified and especially with overseas units ES isn't within the realm of reality and then the primary mission is CP.  When I rejoined back in 2012 I told my unit I wanted nothing to do with ES in any regards.  Now I helped our ES officer one weekend when he reached out but that was it.  Forcing ES as any form of advancement requirement will stagnate members.

Although the last time I started a thread on this issue no one was buying what I was selling, I feel obligated to say again that the federal statute that authorizes CAP DOES NOT include a "cadet program" as one of our stated purposes while emergency services is explicitly mentioned. 

QuoteTITLE 36 > Subtitle II > Part B Section 40302
 The purposes of the corporation are as follows:
(1) To provide an organization to—
(A) encourage and aid citizens of the United States in contributing their efforts, services, and resources in developing aviation and in maintaining air supremacy; and
(B) encourage and develop by example the voluntary contribution of private citizens to the public welfare.
(2) To provide aviation education and training especially to its senior and cadet members.
(3) To encourage and foster civil aviation in local communities.
(4) To provide an organization of private citizens with adequate facilities to assist in meeting local and national emergencies.
(5) To assist the Department of the Air Force in fulfilling its noncombat programs and missions.

So, yes, yes, providing aerospace education and training to youths obviously fits under B2, but all the leadership and other aspects of the modern cadet programs are add-ons.

However, providing people to help in emergencies is one of our very specific primary purposes and as such, I think requiring all members to have some basic level of ES training falls in line with why the organization exists.

I understand that cadets have a lot of obligations and ES may seem outside the zone of what some are there to do, but they should suck it up like all the senior members that joined for ES but have to spend time on cadet protection and related issues even if they are rarely around cadets. 

Unfortunately, the simplification of CAP's purposes into only 3 missions has shortchanged several of our other purposes.

Quote from: RiverAux on March 23, 2021, 12:37:37 AM..... providing people to help in emergencies is one of our very specific primary purposes and as such, I think requiring all members to have some basic level of ES training falls in line with why the organization exists.

Something like 95% of CAP Saves now are thanks to the handful of folks on the cell phones forensics teams ... so .... times are a'changing.

Sure, there are still a couple wings that are active in SAR, but most all the others ... practice for a mission that never comes.

At some point, Congress may just need to revisit that Charter. Maybe sooner than later.

Quote from: etodd on March 23, 2021, 02:36:26 AMAt some point, Congress may just need to revisit that Charter. Maybe sooner than later.

Oh, you don't want to open up that can of worms.  Its like having a new Constitutional convention -- things are probably more likely to go bad than go well.  Better to stay under the Congressional radar.