Initial Flight Training for SMs

[DNall]

^That's exactly what I'm talking about, and that's only reasonable, in fact absolutely prudent to protect our interests from abuse.

[ddelaney103]

Yes, but how would we determine if the person was "serving?"

With the exception of keeping their rating current, what would be the determining factors of serving as a MP?  Since there is no penalty for a MP to decline a mission, if you pay your dues and keep your rating, you're golden.

Also, do we sic the dogs on them if they lose their PP license for medical?

[DNall]

That's where I said point system.... see also how the guard/reserve works for retirement/promotions/etc.

What I'd envision is maintaining a degree of mission readiness, which would include an availability level averaged over the year, and a training level - proficiency & participation in either real or SaREx missions to a stated level.

I wasn't necessarily saying the service obligation to follow was solely based on MP status. Active particiaption for three years in any mission capacity & regular attendance at a local unit in a command/staff/support role seems adequate.

I think the most realistic program in fact would be... hoops (incl medical) /application; ground & train to solo; then loan to finance solo hours outside of CAP to PPL. Then you got t three year obligation. Upgrading from there to inst, would be an additional obligation, same deal with comm & CFI. Now, the length & nature of those obligations may vary depending on the needs of CAP & may tak into account the geographic location of the applicant, etc.

[Dragoon]

Any kind of contract or point system involves considerable overhead.

Who's gonna keep track of the "points?"  What volunteer will take on the job of certifying the accuracy the points?  How will we insure the records are kept in a manner allowing them to stand up in court?

Remember, we're having problems just keeping track of our squadron money to an auditor's satisfaction!

You just aren't going to have people jumping up and down to be the "Wing Pilot Training Contract Moniter"

Plus, remember that CAP's return on the investment for flight training comes years later - the guy can't train for MP until he's got 175 hours PIC.  That's a fair chunk of change that needs to be spent to get those hours.



I think a better approach is to allow private pilot training for experienced, valuable members.

Instead of taking a guy off the street, teaching him to fly, and then having some system to make sure he pays us back...

...how about taking the guy who's already jumped through a bunch of CAP hoops?  Like he's been a member for 3 years, has his Certificate of Proficiency, has earned his observer wings and has letters of recommendation from his squadron, group and wing commanders?  And, oh yeah, he's found a CAP CFI willing to teach him.

Odds are, that guy is already hooked on CAP, and isn't going to take the pilot's license and run.


In other words, instead of an incentive to join, we use it as an incentive to PERFORM.

[Capt Rivera]

Any kind of contract or point system involves considerable overhead.

Who's gonna keep track of the "points?"  What volunteer will take on the job of certifying the accuracy the points?  How will we insure the records are kept in a manner allowing them to stand up in court?

Remember, we're having problems just keeping track of our squadron money to an auditor's satisfaction!

You just aren't going to have people jumping up and down to be the "Wing Pilot Training Contract Moniter"

Plus, remember that CAP's return on the investment for flight training comes years later - the guy can't train for MP until he's got 175 hours PIC.  That's a fair chunk of change that needs to be spent to get those hours.



I think a better approach is to allow private pilot training for experienced, valuable members.

Instead of taking a guy off the street, teaching him to fly, and then having some system to make sure he pays us back...

...how about taking the guy who's already jumped through a bunch of CAP hoops?  Like he's been a member for 3 years, has his Certificate of Proficiency, has earned his observer wings and has letters of recommendation from his squadron, group and wing commanders?  And, oh yeah, he's found a CAP CFI willing to teach him.

Odds are, that guy is already hooked on CAP, and isn't going to take the pilot's license and run.


In other words, instead of an incentive to join, we use it as an incentive to PERFORM.

I second that

[DNall]

Any kind of contract or point system involves considerable overhead.

Who's gonna keep track of the "points?"  What volunteer will take on the job of certifying the accuracy the points?  How will we insure the records are kept in a manner allowing them to stand up in court?

Remember, we're having problems just keeping track of our squadron money to an auditor's satisfaction!

You just aren't going to have people jumping up and down to be the "Wing Pilot Training Contract Moniter"

Plus, remember that CAP's return on the investment for flight training comes years later - the guy can't train for MP until he's got 175 hours PIC.  That's a fair chunk of change that needs to be spent to get those hours.

It's not that complisacted. Mtg counts for X, SaREx, counts for Y, prof hours count for Z, etc. Input to eServices like anything else. Gets verified just like everything else on an SQTR, which is not at all, but cinfirmed by your Sq CC each year, so if they lie then it's conspiracy to commit fraud & jail time. It's really quite easy, besides excuses about things being hard never solved anything.


Regarding the training time till return... You can train straight thru to that level in a rather short period of time, but I understand in a volunteer CAP situation it may not be quick. That's why we talked about street to PPL gets you three years, PPL to Inst gets you 2, etc... Clearly they can't do any flying for us as a PPL, but they can serve a contract service obligation by being active in CAP.

I think a better approach is to allow private pilot training for experienced, valuable members.

Instead of taking a guy off the street, teaching him to fly, and then having some system to make sure he pays us back...

...how about taking the guy who's already jumped through a bunch of CAP hoops?  Like he's been a member for 3 years, has his Certificate of Proficiency, has earned his observer wings and has letters of recommendation from his squadron, group and wing commanders?  And, oh yeah, he's found a CAP CFI willing to teach him.

Odds are, that guy is already hooked on CAP, and isn't going to take the pilot's license and run.

In other words, instead of an incentive to join, we use it as an incentive to PERFORM.

That's what we said. Take that guy, & obligate him to further CAP service so he doesn't get fed up & walk after we've dropped  afew grand on him, or he doesn't put in his time for a few years earning teh chance to get flight training, and then bail after his goal is accomplished.

[ZigZag911]

Yes, but how would we determine if the person was "serving?"

With the exception of keeping their rating current, what would be the determining factors of serving as a MP?  Since there is no penalty for a MP to decline a mission, if you pay your dues and keep your rating, you're golden.

Also, do we sic the dogs on them if they lose their PP license for medical?

1) 50% meeting attendance over the course of two year period.

2) Completion of Level II prior to applying for training program

3) There would need to be some sort of written legal agreement regarding performance required to 'repay' training; failure to fulfill it should result in pro-rated re-payment of training costs (e.g., if you're supposed to fly 60 hours for CAP in the 3 years following, and only fly 30 hrs, you owe 50% of training costs)

4) We should require a Class II medical to hedge against medical certificate loss; some alternate plan would need to be designed for those who can not (rather than will not) meet their obligation.

[arajca]

Modify 1) to:
1) 50% meeting attendance over the course of the two years immediately prior to applying for flight training.

Ensures the applicant will have been in CAP for at least two years and has a good feel for the organization. Also, they would be less likely to bolt after completing training.

[DNall]

I think 50% is on the way light side, more like min 75% to apply & it's competitive after that.

I also still think the geographic distribution of pilots should be a factor. Not top make this seem less than fair, but we need fewer pilots in the big city where we can easily recruit lots more in a pinch versus way out in the sticks at tim-buck-two Comp Sq that's a two hour flight from anywhere.

I hadn't put a lot of flying down as a requirement for after the rating is earned, and that's on purpose for a couple reasons. First is I don't want them to get rated & then go into flying club mode where tey get in their hours, but they are in no other way part of CAP. The second is the lost the medical, or just not able to fly, whatever the case, they can contribute as an active CAP member & that's all that's asked of them. Not at all looking for super contribution, just stay active or pay up.

I also wouldn't do that pro-rating stuff. That gives you less & less leverage as time goes on, at some point it's just not an incentive anymore. Plus then you have to figure out the math on such a thing. I'd go with going market rate for training recieved (not the actual cost of the discounted version provided by us), and full price all the way till the obligation is fulfilled. Now if for some reason they get busy with work one year & can't do as much as they should then that jsut adds a year on the end versus killing them. That's where I like the points system for giving flexibility.

[ddelaney103]

Frankly, I don't care how many meetings they go to.  The real question is, "are they operational?"

If we're training a mission pilot, I want to know their availability for MP stuff.  Since we don't stand watch or strip alert, how do we ensure they are avail when we need them?

[SAR-EMT1]

Work out a schedule ususally with a MP and observer/scanner along with a UDF team and 1 or 2 man Base Crew availible for a period of a week or two. Rotate crews through the schedule, to be ready for duty within 2 hours at any given time when "on alert" with that rotation.

[Dragoon]

It's not that complisacted. Mtg counts for X, SaREx, counts for Y, prof hours count for Z, etc. Input to eServices like anything else. Gets verified just like everything else on an SQTR, which is not at all, but cinfirmed by your Sq CC each year, so if they lie then it's conspiracy to commit fraud & jail time. It's really quite easy, besides excuses about things being hard never solved anything.

The concept is easy.  The execution is extremely difficult.

Right now, we don't track SAREX participation in eServices.  We collect sign-in sheets and put 'em in a folder at Wing never to be seen again.  So who's gonna type all the data into eServices?  How do we reconcile the guy who showed up, signed in and left from the guy who stays all weekend and does multiple sorties?

Squadron Commanders aren't present at many of the things you want to give credit for, and therefore cannot legally certify someone's attendance.  That would require a witness, probably the project officer.   The recordkeeping gets massive real fast.

How do we ensure that squadrons keep proper attendance AND type it all in?  What about the guy who argues later that he was there, but didn't get credit, or the member with a grudge who complains that the member WASN'T there, in spite of the record?  You'll need something that will stand up in court if you wanna talk breach of contract.

Without valid electronic signatures, eServices data isn't valid in the courtroom.  There's no way anyone's going to jail over a bad data record.  That's why legal-related CAP actions still require pen and ink signature.

And as for how "easy" it is, I'll make you a deal. When we can get 90% of our squadrons to enter their once a month mileage data on their single van before the due date, then we can talk about how "easy" it is to keep good records in CAP.

Don't wish away the details.  That just results in major failures later.  You'll learn that in OBC.

That's what we said. Take that guy, & obligate him to further CAP service so he doesn't get fed up & walk after we've dropped  afew grand on him, or he doesn't put in his time for a few years earning teh chance to get flight training, and then bail after his goal is accomplished.

That may be what you said, but it's not what I said.

Pls reread the post.  What I said, in a nutshell, was

1.  It ain't worth trying to obligate people to future CAP service.  The overhead in enforcing the obligations is WAY beyond our capabilities.

2.  Instead, make the guy "pay" before he does flight training.  Make him serve for a bunch of years and do good stuff for CAP.  Then reward him by letting him taking private instruction in our plans at his own expense.  And it's his job to find the flight instructor willing to do it for free.

All this requires is a reg change.  No new funds, no new overhead.  This something we can do today.

Odds are this guy won't quit, as he's got a lot invested in the organization (we lose most of our new members early on)

And if he does quit after flight instruction, so what?  He already paid us with his sweat and effort before he started training. And we're not out any money.

[Tim Medeiros]

Oh yeah... The issue is not inspiration to fly or learn to fly, but rather that some or most who would love to can't afford to. Moreover then not affording to, they can barely afford to be in CAP as they take unpaid vacations from work to conduct SARs, go to Cadet activities etc. If you feel there is a lack of motivation as opposed to a lack of money, I want to see you offer a scholarship to pay for one officers flight experience leading to a private. After you get done researching how much that would cost you on average, take a guess at how many applications you would get. If you decide to do this give me a heads up, you will get my application first.

You'll have my application as well.  I started training as a cadet exactly 1 year ago, was unable to finish due to circumstances beyond my control, if anyone is interested feel free to contact me via PM.  Being a college student I cannot afford to bare the costs of aircraft, fuel (about $5/gal now) and instructor.  Once I get my PP I plan on giving back what was once given to me as a cadet, by being a cadet orientation pilot, and working on getting MP as well.

going with what Dragoon said above this post, related to me, nearly 8 years in (though turned SM in Jan), level 2 earned in march (only 2 items away from LV4 infact), working on getting MS, currently in a wing level position as well as helping my old group and original squadron in various positions, CFI found (same guy that did my last bit of training).

I would really perfer NOT to have to take out another loan, I've got enough with college as is.  I'm going to be paying them off until I'm 50 at this rate (21 right now).

[jimmydeanno]

Oh yeah... The issue is not inspiration to fly or learn to fly, but rather that some or most who would love to can't afford to. Moreover then not affording to, they can barely afford to be in CAP as they take unpaid vacations from work to conduct SARs, go to Cadet activities etc. If you feel there is a lack of motivation as opposed to a lack of money, I want to see you offer a scholarship to pay for one officers flight experience leading to a private. After you get done researching how much that would cost you on average, take a guess at how many applications you would get. If you decide to do this give me a heads up, you will get my application first.

You'll have my application as well.  I started training as a cadet exactly 1 year ago, was unable to finish due to circumstances beyond my control.  Being a college student I cannot afford to bare the costs of aircraft, fuel (about $5/gal now) and instructor.  Once I get my PP I plan on giving back what was once given to me as a cadet, by being a cadet orientation pilot, and working on getting MP as well.

Doesn't TSA (Not TSA) offer PP Flight Scholarships from solo every year?  If I recall correctly, they are valued at around 7.5K...but they're for cadets...

http://www.tankerbob.com/tsa.htm

[Tim Medeiros]

I would have loved to have received that, however I got my solo completed after the due date.  If I were to submit it for the 2007 deadline I would have become an SM by the time of being awarded the scholarship

[SAR-EMT1]

I would also submit an application, as Ive already decided to be a part of CAP for life.  So would 99% of all non-pilot SMs that I have ever met.
Its not a question of dedication, but of finance.
Personally, Im in the same boat as Timmed- College Loans...  same reason Im not in hurry to buy a Mess Dress 

[ddelaney103]

It seems to me there are two things we could do without a huge outlay of funds or creating an unwieldy participation/debt collection system.

- Use dragoon's idea of giving permission to use CAP a/c after you've earned the right and leave it to the member to find a CAP CFI willing to train them.

- Get Cessna to give a CAP discount at their flight centers.  Considering how many Skyhawks we buy, you'd figure we'd get something out of it.

Everything else has fallen into the "late night dorm room conversation" - where you talk about cool ideas without all that messy blowback and complicating factors.  Most recent uniform changes fall into that category. 

[flyguy06]

It seems to me there are two things we could do without a huge outlay of funds or creating an unwieldy participation/debt collection system.

- Use dragoon's idea of giving permission to use CAP a/c after you've earned the right and leave it to the member to find a CAP CFI willing to train them.

- Get Cessna to give a CAP discount at their flight centers.  Considering how many Skyhawks we buy, you'd figure we'd get something out of it.

Everything else has fallen into the "late night dorm room conversation" - where you talk about cool ideas without all that messy blowback and complicating factors.  Most recent uniform changes fall into that category. 

The Cessna Corporation doesnt control prices. When you see those cessna Pilot center signs, they are just franchises. the people that own the actually flight school control the pricing.

[flyguy06]

Why cant a Private Pilot fly for CAP? My Squadron Commander is a Private Pilot. he is giving O rides next weekend.

[jimmydeanno]

Why cant a Private Pilot fly for CAP? My Squadron Commander is a Private Pilot. he is giving O rides next weekend.

A private pilot can fly for CAP so long as they meet the requirements to fly at whatever CAP rating they are looking to do.  Most CAP O Flight Pilots around here hold a Private Pilot Certificate with whatever ratings needed to fly O Flights and that's it.