John and Martha King flying stolen plane.....kinda

[Flying Pig]

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/bizav/1715-full.html#203213

Kings To Help Develop Police Aviation Training

John and Martha King will help the Santa Barbara Police develop training for members of the department to help them more effectively deal with incidents involving aircraft. The Kings were detained at gunpoint, handcuffed and held at the Santa Barbara Airport last Saturday after a case of mistaken identity over the N-number on their leased Cessna 172. Martha King told AVweb the chief of police, Camerino Sanchez, called her husband to apologize "clearly and profusely" for the aggressive manner in which they were detained. "He said that the police don't have any training for aircraft stops, and used the only procedure they knew – a 'hot stop' on a stolen vehicle," she said. The Kings will be providing the department with ideas on how to develop training for officers to intercept aircraft properly. John King also suggested the training could be developed into a national set of standard operating procedures for all police departments. Martha King said the conversation with the police chief was "very cordial." Meanwhile, AOPA is reporting that the FAA has removed the N-number from the list of stolen aircraft and the National Business Aviation Association is calling for further action that would likely have prevented Saturday's incident.

NBAA President Ed Bolen said the incident, in which the 172 was misidentified as a Cessna 150 stolen eight years ago, points to the need for review of the way the government gathers and shares information about aircraft. In this case, the N-number (N-50545) was cancelled on the 150 in 2005 and reassigned to the Cessna-owned 172 in 2009. On the aircraft's first flight, from the factory to company headquarters in Wichita in late 2009, the company pilot was met by police who had been alerted by the El Paso Intelligence Center, a multi-agency intel unit that specializes in gathering data on drug dealers and smugglers. The incident with the Kings was a repeat of that scenario. "We recognize that law enforcement officials need to have a reliable source of up-to-date aircraft information to prevent illegal activities," Bolen said. "At the same time, we believe the government process for using the data appears woefully inadequate. This isn't the first time outdated information has resulted in a situation like the one involving the Kings, but we want it to be the last. We're asking government leaders to look at this unfortunate event as an opportunity for industry and government to collaborate on a solution that will prevent similar incidents in the future."

Capitolism is awesome.  Life gives you lemons, make lemonade :clap:

Quite honestly, aside from the part about the tail number still being listed as stolen 8 years later, which isnt SBPDs fault,  the cops did exactly what they were supposed to do.  Once its on the ground, it is, for all intents and purposes, a car.  Nobody got hurt, everyone went home, and a problem with the "system" was identified.  Sounds like John and Martha were very understanding.  Whats bad is they recycled the tail number and nobody at the FAA ever noticed the flag in the system still listing it as stolen.

[Flying Pig]

...

[SJFedor]

I think they did a pretty good job. No one got shot or tased....

[HGjunkie]

[Flying Pig]

I think they did a pretty good job. No one got shot or tased....

Boring for the cops, but everyone else seems to call it a good ending....

[wuzafuzz]

Hopefully any new "procedure" will be limited to the timely updating of stolen aircraft records.  It'll be disappointing if they suggest a defanged group-hug procedure for the cops making the "stop."

[Flying Pig]

Quite honestly, although humorous, I dont think John and Martha need to be in the LE tactics business.

[simon]

I watched the video between the AOPA member and John King and looked at the photos of the incident. I am appalled at the protocol used by the police. Hostage like tactics on a mid-sixties couple. Not even an apology. It's a bloody disgrace.

[Robborsari]

I watched the video between the AOPA member and John King and looked at the photos of the incident. I am appalled at the protocol used by the police. Hostage like tactics on a mid-sixties couple. Not even an apology. It's a bloody disgrace.

There was an apology.  And its a good point that cops could use some training on how to detain an aircraft thief.  Step one see if he is wearing shoes...

[simon]

I never ceased to be amazed at the Keystone Cop like behavior the plethora of new policing government agencies that have been created in the last 20 years.

In this case, when an IFR flight plan is filed, notification is provided to the El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC). They check the tail number against a list of stolen aircraft tail numbers. EPIC is the agency that notified the Santa Barbara Police.

A couple of points illustrate what a bumbling mess this is:

1. EPIC's tail number list was wrong. The King's plane was (Obviously) not stolen. There's a whole story about that in itself.
2. The plane had filed IFR previously, without incident. So clearly the system isn't even working.
3. What pilot would ever file report their tail number to ATC, let along file IFR, with their name, telephone number, route of flight and destination, in a (Knowingly) stolen plane! Hey EPIC, did you think about that?

Anyone can look up a tail number on the FAA registry in 1 minute.

Although nobody would wish this incident on anyone, in a way it is a blessing to the pilot community that it was the Kings. In terms of their high profile and experience in training, I can't think of better people to lead the way for a change. If it were any one of us, it would have been a simple "You are free to go", no apology and no change in procedures. It so irks me to read about clearly low risk situations like this where an innocent person has a loaded gun pointed at their head with hardly any diligence, a complete lack of common sense and in the wash up afterwards all we hear is "The officers followed standard procedures." It seems like "Shoot first, ask questions later" is the next phase of "Standard Procedures".

[wuzafuzz]

There were clearly problems with the record keeping in this case, and possibly with the reports made TO the police that day.  Having said that, what part of this was "clearly low-risk" to the cops on the ground, who probably were only told they were stopping the occupants of a reportedly stolen airplane?  Did I just wake up in an alternate universe were planes are never stolen to use in illegal activities?  Or where people of a certain age never shoot cops? 

I used to work at an airport very close to Santa Barbara, and recall some cases where some very bad people were playing with stolen airplanes.  Any law enforcement officer who assumes all planes are occupied by cheerful harmless people, even if they are reported stolen, does so at his or her own peril.

[N Harmon]

I agree with wuzafuzz. While I do have a tendency to be critical of the police when they do things wrong, this is clearly not one of those times. They were responding to a stolen aircraft report, and responded appropriately.

Now, I would like to know why the FAA is re-issuing N-numbers of stolen aircraft. So are there now two aircraft out and about with the same N-number? If the original stolen aircraft was recovered, why wasn't its status updated? This is where the investigation should focus,... not teaching officers how to pull over airplanes.

[AirAux]

Well spoken as your friendly neighborhood hyper cop, wuzafuzz.  If I have a hammer, every situation looks like a nail.  If I have a gun, every situation looks dangerous.  I know, there are so many white haired old couples pulling Bonnie and Clyde's..  It's only reasonable to presume that LE was in danger..  Believe it or not a very similiar situation happened in South Florida in the 70's and 2 CAP officers in their Smurf suits were dropped to the ground upon landing by LE with a helicopter and so very well armed..   So much for progress and our little armed buddies..  It's okay, I'm from the government and I'm here to help..

[Flying Pig]

I watched the video between the AOPA member and John King and looked at the photos of the incident. I am appalled at the protocol used by the police. Hostage like tactics on a mid-sixties couple. Not even an apology. It's a bloody disgrace.

You obviously know nothing about tactics.  If you want to come on a patrol ride a long with me and see why we do it that way, your more than welcome.  Ive been shot at an returned fire on two vehicle stops in my career.  It doesnt matter that an IFR plan was filed or that the two people flying were older.

The plane landed with a stolen tail number.  People steal planes.  Everyone went home safe.   The anti law enforcement atmosphere is actually a little disturbing.

Simon, what do you do for a living that leads you to such an expert conclusion of how this should have been handled?  Have you ever pulled over a stolen car or airplane for that matter?  Do you at least have ANY law enforcement or relevant tactical experience?  Or are you one of those people who stand on the sidelines yelling about how you think it should be done?  The tactics we use  have been developed over decades, thousands of incidents and many deaths, on both sides.  Most of those deaths being cops who assumed someone wasnt a threat.
As far as an apology, I dont see why the cops apologized.  The FAA should have issued the apology.  The cops did their jobs.  By the way, the Chief didnt apologize for the tactics.

And as far as AirAux, whats your background?  The statement about white haired couples.  Again, ignorance.  I guess the 91yr old white haired guy who exchanged 20 rounds with me and my partner one night in a motel parking lot wasnt a threat based soley on his apperance.  You know how that started?  His grandson called in asking us to check on his welfare because he was just walking around. Nobody knew he had a Ruger P89 and a .38 cal revolver in his pockets.  Lets say nobody was more surpised than I!
Sad thing is nobody will ever know what his reasoning was.  If you dont like cops, fine.  But to the both of you, at least make an argument based on facts or some sort of relevant experience.

But what the cops dont need is the peanut gallery telling us to judge threats based on someones appeareance.  If thats how cops are supposed to make their sole judgement, Ill take you to the jail for a tour and show you some of the most harmless looking people, male and female, who are some of the most vicious animals on the planet.  We will see if you can pick them out.
The peanut gallery is much different than people sincerely asking why cops do what they do.  All you two are looking for is a reason to point your finger at the police for anything and say "You screwed up." Im sure there are tactics instructor positions available at the Santa Barbara County Sheriffs Academy.  Perhaps you could do your part passing on your wealth of knowledge to the rookies.  Oh, wait....you have to actually be qualified to teach there.  Nevermind.

Oh, and by the way AirAux, could you tell me what heavily armed law enforcement helicopter was flying around in Florida in the 70s? Or was that just a story you heard?

So Im curious, do the cops in Santa Barbara go around jacking up every plane that lands at the airport? Or did this just happen to the one plane out of thousands that happened to land with a stolen tail number?

[Flying Pig]

I never ceased to be amazed at the Keystone Cop like behavior the plethora of new policing government agencies that have been created in the last 20 years.

In this case, when an IFR flight plan is filed, notification is provided to the El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC). They check the tail number against a list of stolen aircraft tail numbers. EPIC is the agency that notified the Santa Barbara Police.

A couple of points illustrate what a bumbling mess this is:

1. EPIC's tail number list was wrong. The King's plane was (Obviously) not stolen. There's a whole story about that in itself.
2. The plane had filed IFR previously, without incident. So clearly the system isn't even working.
3. What pilot would ever file report their tail number to ATC, let along file IFR, with their name, telephone number, route of flight and destination, in a (Knowingly) stolen plane! Hey EPIC, did you think about that?
Anyone can look up a tail number on the FAA registry in 1 minute.

Although nobody would wish this incident on anyone, in a way it is a blessing to the pilot community that it was the Kings. In terms of their high profile and experience in training, I can't think of better people to lead the way for a change. If it were any one of us, it would have been a simple "You are free to go", no apology and no change in procedures. It so irks me to read about clearly low risk situations like this where an innocent person has a loaded gun pointed at their head with hardly any diligence, a complete lack of common sense and in the wash up afterwards all we hear is "The officers followed standard procedures." It seems like "Shoot first, ask questions later" is the next phase of "Standard Procedures".

Crazy huh?  Thats right up there with the several people Ive arrested who cashed (Knowingly) stolen checks at banks and left their thumb print on the back of the check and a scan of their drivers license.  Hey Simon, did you ever think of that?

[simon]

FP, this debate is unlikely to go anywhere.

You think the police response in this situation was appropriate. Fine. A super way to build rapport with the public.

[wuzafuzz]

By the numbers:

Well spoken as your friendly neighborhood hyper cop, wuzafuzz. 

Hypercop?  Me?  That's so far off base it's funny.  Really.  That probably wasn't your intent, but I'm not one to pass up a good laugh.  Thanks!   :clap:

If I have a hammer, every situation looks like a nail.  If I have a gun, every situation looks dangerous. 

Give cops a little more credit.  They usually have the brain power necessary to use the right tool for the job.  They did that in this case.  Writing reports is a lot more common that holding people at gunpoint.  I've yet to see a cop try writing a report with a firearm.  Seriously, this is a "knowledge is power" moment.  Once you are aware of certain facts, the actions of most cops look a lot more reasonable.

I know, there are so many white haired old couples pulling Bonnie and Clyde's..  It's only reasonable to presume that LE was in danger.

Look at the photo of the plane with the doors closed.  Look where the cops are.  Even if you buy the argument that hair color somehow matters, do you really think they could see hair color with the tail and sun glare on the back window? Can you honestly tell (from the photo) if anyone else is in the plane?

So much for progress and our little armed buddies.

"Little armed buddies."  Are they green?  Is one of them named Marvin?

[wuzafuzz]

FP, this debate is unlikely to go anywhere.

You think the police response in this situation was appropriate. Fine. A super way to build rapport with the public.

Actually this presents a great opportunity to build rapport with the aviation community.  Some postings suggested that law enforcement can benefit from aviation related education.  That's fair.  It's also true many members of the public would benefit from a better understanding of why cops do some of the things they do.  I'll wager there would be a few "ah ha!" moments for everyone.

[N Harmon]

You think the police response in this situation was appropriate. Fine. A super way to build rapport with the public.

Sorry, but no cop should put his or her self in danger for the sole purpose of improving public relations.

[Thrashed]

Agreed.  55,000 dead cops in this country. Their job is law enforcement and staying alive.  They did their job and they did it correctly.  Too bad the information was not updated.  Not the cops fault.

[tarheel gumby]

I seen the "anti-law enforcement" crowd complain that cops are brainless brutes, I think that they have heard the tales of a very small number of real "Barney Fife's" out of control, and are trying to make a mountain out of an ant hill.
I too have seen a couple of incidents where the Officer lacked important information and was making poor choices. Such as interfering with medical care at an accident scene, the officer was one that other cops wanted to have disciplined. That having been said if anybody thinks that they know any better than the LEO's that were on the scene then, why aren't they out there working in Law Enforcement. Cops don't have all the answers but nobody else has them either, we have them do a tough job day in and day out. They do their best with the information at hand, so when they need more information they should get it and not a ration of cra......
As an EMT I have to work with them, they have my respect.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Cops are great while they side with your version of events.

[Flying Pig]

FP, this debate is unlikely to go anywhere.

You think the police response in this situation was appropriate. Fine. A super way to build rapport with the public.

Good way to dodge all the questions I asked you.  Ill take that to mean you have no experience to back up your theories.

[simon]

Good way to dodge all the questions I asked you.  Ill take that to mean you have no experience to back up your theories.

Take it how you like.

I have had a loaded gun pointed at me a couple of times by police. Given the scenarios it was ridiculous. Thankfully nobody had Parkinson's or sneezed. In each case they ended up walking away like nothing happened.

Perhaps you are so used to this that it is ho hum just another day at the office. But you and I both know it feels different to be on the receiving end.

Like I said before, we could debate this forever but I really don't see you conceding that this could have been handled better. I'll leave it to people to read the story, look at the photos and the video of John King's account.

[Flying Pig]

You had a gun pointed at you by a law enforcement officers doing their job.  I was being shot at by a criminal trying to kill me, which has happened on 4 separate occasions, so no, we dont have anything in common.  As far as John and Martha, as a Law Enforcement SWAT and tactics instructor myself I would say it was handled exactly the way it should have been. 

[tsrup]

I fail to see how this thread given the route its going is going to help our working relationships with our respective Sheriff and Police Departments...