Odd situation, need help with regs.

[SU-25Frogfoot]

I just discovered and joined this forum, and from what I can discern, it appears to be a great resource for members of CAP. Onward to my situation.

    I am one of two Flight Sergeants in a relatively small squadron (with a 4/1 ratio of C/AB to people with any sort of D&C experience). A little over a month ago we were even smaller, with one flight. After an influx of new cadets, one of our senior members, who is also an Air Force JROTC instructor, suggested that he have some local AF JROTC cadets come in and provide advisory in matters related to D&C. My initial understanding was that these JROTC cadets would come to a meeting, and perhaps give tips here and there while we the Flight Sergeants did D&C with our flights. This was an inaccurate assumption. The day comes, JROTC shows up to our meeting, and almost immediately after opening ceremony, they begin to issue drill commands to both flights. These guys aren't members of CAP. They just began issuing commands, and, not knowing what to do, the in-flights followed their lead. These guys didn't ask permission from myself, or the other Flight Sergeant, to assume control of our flights, and even if they did, I am pretty sure that it is a major breach of CAP regulations for an individual who is not a member of CAP to command a flight. It was bewildering. This is just one of many problems with their visit, but it is the most serious. The 2 members of our squadron's Senior staff present did not object to their behavior, but our Squadron Commander was not present, and I do not think he would have allowed that to happen. As far as the other Flight Sergeant and I can gather, the issues with what happened are being ignored, and our SC has not been informed of them.

   The other Flight Sergeant and I plan to draft a report of what happened, and a list of regulations that were broken, and send it up the chain to my Squadron Commander. I was wondering what the community here thinks of this, and if you could point me in the direction of regulations regarding who can issue commands to a flight. I don't want any drama out of this, I'm just doing what I think is right.

[Spam]

Directly applicable example: 

my unit just wrapped up a drill clinic in September with the Georgia Tech AFROTC det, which we asked for after realizing that we needed to up the bar in D&C in our unit. Our cadets (including cadet officers and C/NCOs) all fell in ranks and spent a full day learning it all over again from ground up, being commanded by AFROTC cadets (not "J", but college ROTC, but the principle is the same).  Issues corrected included doing away with "arms length" vs. regulation 40" spacing, falling out correctly and so on. No CAP regulations were broken whatsoever, but my initially dubious ranking cadets (including C/LTs and C/Captains, who also fell in the ranks) had to get beyond their "blind spot" to accept that sometimes an outsider can diagnose problems, point out improvements, and demonstrate proper techniques. The only key "reg" issue is that CPP was followed, with adequate CAP adult leader supervision in person at all times while nonmembers were working with cadets.


So, where do you want to go now - to be weaponed-up with reg quotes for your report to your CO? Do you want to be a victim and have your hurt feelings massaged, or to up your game and accept some tips?


V/R,
Spam

[lordmonar]

My honest opinion is that you are just barking up a tall tree.

If you are the flight sergeant....and someone tries to take YOUR flight.....you take it back.

"Excuse me, but this is my flight flight thank you."

There are no regs about who can command a CAP flight.

You do need to bring this up with your chain of command that you where not on the same sheet of music as the rest of the staff.
I think you need to get out of the "we are going to draft a report" mind set.   Talk to your flight commanders, your cadet commander and your deputy commander for cadets/squadron commander.

A simple "hey boss can I talk to you for a second?  I guess I missed the memo but......."

[jdh]

I was a Junior in high school and 3rd year AFJROTC cadet when the CAP squadron opened in my area. We were asked to come and teach the CAP cadets leadership, AE, Drill, etc. Other CAP squadrons in the area sent in SNCO's and Officers to help as well. We were there to help teach and that is what we did, a few of us from the JROTC unit joined CAP a few months into the training aspect because it looked like a fun organization to be a part of as we went though the books and regs and learned more about it. These cadets are there to help you, learn from them. If you have an issue with something as an NCO you should ask the person to step to the side and discuss it with them. Come to an understanding with that person but dont start jumping up and down and piss them off to the point that they throw their hands up and walk off. Doing so will do nothing for you but cost you and your squadron the opportunity to learn from someone with more experience and cause bad blood between you and the JROTC unit.

[Storm Chaser]

My initial understanding was that these JROTC cadets would come to a meeting, and perhaps give tips here and there while we the Flight Sergeants did D&C with our flights. This was an inaccurate assumption.

It seems the issue here is either with your expectations or with lack of communication from your leadership.

These guys didn't ask permission from myself, or the other Flight Sergeant, to assume control of our flights,

Do you know if they had permission from your first sergeant, cadet commander or deputy commander for cadets? As a flight sergeant, you don't have final or sole authority over your flight.

and even if they did, I am pretty sure that it is a major breach of CAP regulations for an individual who is not a member of CAP to command a flight.

Can you quote me a regulation that prohibits non-CAP members from commanding a flight with CAP cadets? Granted, that's not a common practice and certainly not something that should be the norm. But as long as proper Cadet Protection procedures were observed, there's nothing inherently wrong with having an AFJROTC cadet teach CAP cadets how to drill.

It was bewildering. This is just one of many problems with their visit, but it is the most serious.

This doesn't seem as serious as you think, at least not based on the information provided on your post. What are the other problems encountered with their visit?

The 2 members of our squadron's Senior staff present did not object to their behavior,

It's very likely what they did was with their authorization. The senior members there were in charge, not the cadet flight sergeants. If you had questions or issues, you should've brought it up to them.

but our Squadron Commander was not present, and I do not think he would have allowed that to happen. As far as the other Flight Sergeant and I can gather, the issues with what happened are being ignored, and our SC has not been informed of them.

Do you know that for a fact? For all you know, your commander is not only aware, but actually okay with this. Why don't you just ask him/her to be sure?

The other Flight Sergeant and I plan to draft a report of what happened, and a list of regulations that were broken, and send it up the chain to my Squadron Commander. I was wondering what the community here thinks of this, and if you could point me in the direction of regulations regarding who can issue commands to a flight.

The problem is you don't really know which or even if a regulation was broken, yet you want to write a report about it. Asking questions is fine. Looking up the regulations is even better. But what you really need to do is to discuss this with your squadron leadership to seek clarification.

I don't want any drama out of this, I'm just doing what I think is right.

Then don't start any drama. The place to start is with your squadron, not a public discussion board like this. It's okay to ask questions, but what you came here looking for was ammunition for your report to the commander. It doesn't seem from your post that you tried discussing this with your senior leadership.

Discuss it with them first. Talk to your commander if you feel the need for clarification. And if you still have questions they're unable to answer, then you can ask them here with the understanding that the regulations and your chain of command take precedence over the opinions of a bunch of strangers in a public forum. Good luck!

[TheSkyHornet]

Where was your Cadet Commander or most-senior cadet-in-charge during all of this, if you have one?

Is your squadron CC the CDC? If not, where was this person?

As brought up before, perhaps there was a miscommunication in your squadron as to the expectations of what the training would consist of, or maybe the AFJROTC folks didn't understand their role. There's a lot of unknowns here. I'd discuss this with your chain of command before giving you any advice or solutions.