O-ride pilot question

[flyguy06]

I wish they would make a rule concerning Orientation flights that if you are a CFI you can fly the airtplane from the right seat. I have been instructing for a year and I am definantly more comfortable flying from the right seat than I am from the left seat these days. I flew fromthe left seat the other day for the first time in a while and my landings sucked.

Title edit - MIKE

[lordmonar]

Yes...but then it would not be an O-ride but flight instruction.....are you allowed to fly passangers (cadets in the back seat) while conducting flight instuction?  (I really don't know.)

It would make a difference for the insurance underwriters.

[RiverAux]

How would following the o-ride sylabus from the right seat be any different than following it from the left seat?  If its not flight instruction on one side, I don't see how it would be from the other.

[lordmonar]

don't know....what are the FAA rules for PIC and Instruction?

Can you be a PIC from the right seat?  I know you can if you are a CFI....but what about just Joe Blow Private Pilot?

[flynd94]

The FAA doesn't care what seat you are in to log PIC time.  If you look at the FAR's it doesn't specific a seat, only that you are the "sole manipulator" of the controls.

The reason for the right seat requirement is mainly due to the fact that many of our o-pilots aren't CFI's and, cadets would only want to fly with CFI's if they got to sit in the left seat.

What's wrong with the right seat, I love the right seat, its the greatest seat in the house  (remember I am a FO at an airline)   

[FW]

The requirement has, I think, been around for a while.  The only reason I can think of for the rule is, some aircraft only have brake controls on the left side.  It would be impossible for the PIC, in the right seat, to stop the aircraft without brakes in this circumstance.  
Other than that, I don't know why either.  

[DG]

I flew fromthe left seat the other day for the first time in a while and my landings sucked.

Title edit - MIKE

If it is true that your landings were poor from the left seat, and you have good recent experience from the right seat, I suggest your landing methodology and technique is lacking.  You should seek out a good instructor to help you with this problem.

[flynd94]

Darn, why don't you just call him terrible pilot......       I also, think you are wrong.  The sight picture, from both seats is different.  With that said, it isn't that hard of a transition.  Practice, practice, practice.   My problem is that I think 70KIAS on final is waaay slow.

[PHall]

Darn, why don't you just call him terrible pilot......       I also, think you are wrong.  The sight picture, from both seats is different.  With that said, it isn't that hard of a transition.  Practice, practice, practice.   My problem is that I think 70KIAS on final is waaay slow.

If you're only doing 70 KIAS on final on what you fly, I hope you have a 40 to 50 knot headwind!

[Short Field]

Practice, practice, practice.   My problem is that I think 70KIAS on final is waaay slow.

In my C182, I like 60 Kts on Final, then slow down to 50 Knots as I cross the fence.

[c172drv]

I flew fromthe left seat the other day for the first time in a while and my landings sucked.

Title edit - MIKE

If it is true that your landings were poor from the left seat, and you have good recent experience from the right seat, I suggest your landing methodology and technique is lacking.  You should seek out a good instructor to help you with this problem.

I usually remain quiet but that is one of the most ignorant statements that I've seen on here.  I only hope that it was a joke gone wrong.  If it wasn't I guess you'll figure it out if you every fly almost entirely from the right seat for several thousand hours and then try to jump into the left seat.

John

[rightstuffpilot]

Although I'm not positive I'd venture to say that every aircraft CAP has SHOULD have brakes on both sides.  Agreed,  that side should not matter.  Especially since the FAA does not care which side(although there are some stipulations with throw over controls for primary training).  But CAP obviously still maintains the right to restrict how their airplanes are flown, particularly on funded flying.

[DG]

Darn, why don't you just call him terrible pilot......       I also, think you are wrong.  The sight picture, from both seats is different.  With that said, it isn't that hard of a transition.  Practice, practice, practice.   My problem is that I think 70KIAS on final is waaay slow.

1.  If he is a terrible pilot, I don't need to call him that.  If he is a terrible pilot, he knows it and so does everyone around him.  Proper landing methodology has nothing to do with which seat you find yourself in.  It is simply a matter of pitch for airspeed and power for altitude. 

2.  70 knots on final, of course, depends on what a/c you are flying.  For our Cessnas, whether they be C172, C182, or U206, 70 knots is fast for final, particularly if you are having trouble with your landings, in which case, you absolutely should be flying a stabilized final all the way into the flare.

[flyguy06]

Darn, why don't you just call him terrible pilot......       I also, think you are wrong.  The sight picture, from both seats is different.  With that said, it isn't that hard of a transition.  Practice, practice, practice.   My problem is that I think 70KIAS on final is waaay slow.

1.  If he is a terrible pilot, I don't need to call him that.  If he is a terrible pilot, he knows it and so does everyone around him.  Proper landing methodology has nothing to do with which seat you find yourself in.  It is simply a matter of pitch for airspeed and power for altitude. 

2.  70 knots on final, of course, depends on what a/c you are flying.  For our Cessnas, whether they be C172, C182, or U206, 70 knots is fast for final, particularly if you are having trouble with your landings, in which case, you absolutely should be flying a stabilized final all the way into the flare.

People like him are the reason I havent been on this site in a while.

[DG]

I usually remain quiet but that is one of the most ignorant statements that I've seen on here.  I only hope that it was a joke gone wrong.  If it wasn't I guess you'll figure it out if you every fly almost entirely from the right seat for several thousand hours and then try to jump into the left seat.

John
[/quote]

If you are flying several thousand hours from the right seat, and not flying from the left seat, I would suggest your flying is too one dimensional.

Nevertheless on the issue of flying from the left seat and proper landing technique, as a check pilot / instructor pilot evaluator, I have had to down CFI's who have only flown in the right seat.  In their case, I believe it was easier for them to fly right seat all the time, but mainly I think they were not manipulating the controls much in almost all their flying, because they were happy to have the left seat pilot do all the flying.

If you are flying several thousand hours from the right seat, and not flying from the left seat, and if you are having difficulty in your landings from the left seat, I suggest your methodology and technique is based on references you have developed from the right seat and not on proper technique and you should be getting some good instruction or not fly from the left seat.

[c172drv]

Darn, why don't you just call him terrible pilot......       I also, think you are wrong.  The sight picture, from both seats is different.  With that said, it isn't that hard of a transition.  Practice, practice, practice.   My problem is that I think 70KIAS on final is waaay slow.

1.  If he is a terrible pilot, I don't need to call him that.  If he is a terrible pilot, he knows it and so does everyone around him.  Proper landing methodology has nothing to do with which seat you find yourself in.  It is simply a matter of pitch for airspeed and power for altitude. 

2.  70 knots on final, of course, depends on what a/c you are flying.  For our Cessnas, whether they be C172, C182, or U206, 70 knots is fast for final, particularly if you are having trouble with your landings, in which case, you absolutely should be flying a stabilized final all the way into the flare.

Guess you weren't joking so lets work this out DG.  What do you fly regularly?  How often do you fly?  How often do you fly from a different seat position?  How many hours do you have?  What ratings do you have?

I regularly swap between aircraft that fly final at 146kts and 65kts.  I'll tell you that it makes a huge difference.  Let us then add the change in perspective when you swap between sides.  Your mind does wonderful things to help you out.  It develops a natural sight picture for you that lets your brain stem do most of the work for you without you really thinking about it.  You do mess that up when you swap sides of the aircraft.  Lets also throw in the muscle memory if you are like me and always fly from the right.  I am totally use to flying with my right hand and controlling power with my left.  That affects your feel for the aircraft.

I'd venture to say that flyguy06 is picky about his skills like I am.  What I would describe as a horrible landing is often better than some others can ever must up.  I have to repeat that your saying he needs to work on his technique with an instructor and the side you fly from doesn't matter is totally ignorant of reality.  BTW methodology does nothing when it comes time to make it work.  That is all skill, practice and feel for your aircraft.

John

[c172drv]

I usually remain quiet but that is one of the most ignorant statements that I've seen on here.  I only hope that it was a joke gone wrong.  If it wasn't I guess you'll figure it out if you every fly almost entirely from the right seat for several thousand hours and then try to jump into the left seat.

John

If you are flying several thousand hours from the right seat, and not flying from the left seat, I would suggest your flying is too one dimensional.

Nevertheless on the issue of flying from the left seaat ad proper landing technique, as a check pilot / instructor pilot evaluator, I have had to down CFI's who have only flown in the right seat.  In their case, I believe it was easier for them to fly right seat all the time, but mainly I think they were not manipulating the controls much.

If you are flying several thousand hours from the right seat, and not flying from the left seat, and if you are having difficulty in your landings from the left seat, I suggest your methodology and technique is based on references you have developed from the right seat and not on proper technique and you should be getting some good instruction or not fly from the left seat.


[/quote]

You can't have it both ways DG.  You said what seat you sit in doesn't matter.  Now you say that you can develop references from the seat.  Technique can be the same but because your references are different you apply your same technique differently. 

John

[DG]

John,

Proper methodology and technique for landing does not vary based on which seat you are in.

It is simply a matter of precision in flying by the numbers down final and finesse in the flare.

Surely you know this if you are flying an aircraft down final that calls for 146 kts.

Our pilots who have the most trouble in landings are those who do not know how to pay attention to precision in flying a stabilized final and it typically shows up in crosswinds or transitions to heavier or faster a/c.

[c172drv]

I didn't say that methodology or technique changes just that the different sight pictures makes a difference.  Give me some background on you so we can make some opinions on credibility. As for me, I've been flying for 16 years and have 3500+ hours.  3000 hours are from the right seat.  I currently fly CRJ's for an airline on the East Coast.  I also flight instruct part time for fun.  As for the one dimensional flying comment from an earlier post.  It is out of my control where I fly from.  That is the nature of being a professional pilot.  I do what I'm told to do within the constraints of regulations and procedure. 

I know that it killed me to jump back into a Cessna or Piper after flying the jet for so long.  I knew the proper technique but overcoming my experience took effort.  Now I can do the speed change no problem.  I taxied from the left seat the other day because I didn't feel like stretching across to start up.  Even that felt weird to me since I am use to using the throttle with my left hand.  I agree that the stabilized approach is everything to get you to the position of making a good landing.  Knowing the aircraft and how it behaves is a major issue too.  I had to deal with many pilots transitioning from a larger but slower aircraft with a totally different landing attitude.  We suffered through many bone jarring landings even though they had the approach totally stable.  It all comes down to the last 50ft in the case of my work aircraft or 10ft in the Cessna's.  That is where the science turns to art.  The quality of art is determined through perception.  That, in the case of airplanes, comes from where you are sitting.

John 

[flynd94]

Darn, why don't you just call him terrible pilot......       I also, think you are wrong.  The sight picture, from both seats is different.  With that said, it isn't that hard of a transition.  Practice, practice, practice.   My problem is that I think 70KIAS on final is waaay slow.

1.  If he is a terrible pilot, I don't need to call him that.  If he is a terrible pilot, he knows it and so does everyone around him.  Proper landing methodology has nothing to do with which seat you find yourself in.  It is simply a matter of pitch for airspeed and power for altitude. 

2.  70 knots on final, of course, depends on what a/c you are flying.  For our Cessnas, whether they be C172, C182, or U206, 70 knots is fast for final, particularly if you are having trouble with your landings, in which case, you absolutely should be flying a stabilized final all the way into the flare.

People like him are the reason I havent been on this site in a while.

Well......  who are you Chuck Yeager??   As my fellow CRJ driver stated, it is fun switching between types.  Unless, we know you background its hard to judge.  I find it interesting flying from the left seat of CAP aircraft, since I am an FO on an ERJ.  My sight picture is totally different and, I have lost some of my muscle memory.  Also, slowing down from 130-145KIAS to 60-70KIAS on final makes it a little interesting.

I think you are probably the type of pilot I would hate sharing the cockpit with, you probably have a hard time fitting your head/ego in the door. 

Flyguy06, it happens to all of us.  Take it from someone who has been flying for 20yrs and, a little experience (Be99, B31900, ERJ and, a ton of piston singles/twins).  Some folks are just morons.

PS-  DG I routinely turn final in the C182 at 90KIAS, slowing to 60-65KIAS by the fence and, have no problem putting it down in the TDZE.  Guess I am a bad pilot.