Good evening,
I was wondering, since we pay a discounted rate for a/c rental and we don't pay for CFIs, how much does it cost (on average) to go through flight training with a CAP instructor? Also, are we allowed to pay CAP to rent their planes for the lesson?
Thanks,
C/Amn Tucker
Are you talking about a flight clinic / encampment or just connecting with a CAP CFI and getting primary instruction?
The latter is not unheard of, but fairly unusual and requires a fair amount of approvals.
I believe the cost right now for a 172 is about $35 or 40 an hour dry. I imagine primary, non-clinic instruction would cost that much.
Not all wings provide discounted flying hours. Our Wing's current standard rates (not adding in the squadron's tacked on fees for parking fees and cleaning supplies) are $87 per hour for the C182s and $100 per hour for the C206s. We don't have a "dry" rate and the Wing pays for all the fuel. We have a limited number of discount hours which are allocated to the squadrons based on the number of assigned and current Mission Pilots. I think the current allocations is something like 3 hours per MP per quarter.
That is still a heck of a lot cheaper than a local rental. Especially if you are flying a C182 with the G1000.
If they aren't doing it at your squadron right now, the chances of being able to do it are slim outside of the national power flight school (not sure of the name).
A 206, now >that's< what we should be buying.
That U-Model would be perfect for us - transport, photo, Archer.
Is this yours?
(http://www.vg-photo.com/civilian/cessna/CessnaU206G_140_4092.jpg)
^no
Quote from: Eclipse on June 23, 2008, 02:57:55 AM
A 206, now >that's< what we should be buying.
That U-Model would be perfect for us - transport, photo, Archer.
Is this yours?
(http://www.vg-photo.com/civilian/cessna/CessnaU206G_140_4092.jpg)
ARCHER won't fit in there. Plus, probably wouldn't have the useful load for the ARCHER toys, plus the 4 man crew.
Attempting to get CAP Flight Training is like trying to get Vanguard to give exceptionally good service, the chances are slim. If you've got a CFI within your area, then ask. Just realize they have to willingly volunteer their very own time. In NJWG, C172s cost $70 as a wet rate. There's no dry rate. I know of some cadets that were lucky enough to get this opportunity, but most were of the local squadron that had the aircraft and the CFIs. But, I will not say it is impossible because I know of one cadet who's about to get his primary training from a CFI half the state away. But, he showed great performance in all aspects of CAP and that's the primary reason some region commander is volunteering his time.
As a C/Amn, it's going to be very difficult to prove that you're a cadet who's shown great performance and given a lot to CAP. If you stay active in the Cadet Program and make a good contribution to CAP, options open up. CAP is not a flight school, but CAP can reward you for your efforts.
The only other option I can think of is to try and get into a CAP Flight Encampment. Mine at NJWG cost $500 and I got 13+ hours of flight instruction, food, lodging, and one heck of a good time.
If you figure a minimum time to a private "ticket" is 60 hrs of solo and duel time with CAP in a C172S at about $70 per hour is $4200. Ground school is free, as is CFI. You must pay for written exam and flight test. Cost would be less if you attend a region or wing powered flight academy.
However, as Cash172 says; you need to "prove" yourself before considering primary flight instruction.
BTW, N206JK is assigned to a wing in PCR.
Even if you have to fly 1/2-way across the country to get there, you can't be a CAP flight encampment or academy for cost or quality of instruction.
Take a look at ILWG Johnson for 2009, by then you'll have some grade, experience, and know better if you're still interested.
As mentioned earlier, instruction and a/c availabilities varies greatly based on your location. CAP is not designed to be a "flight school" but they are designed to further cadets in the areas of aerospace education. Consider the following:
NFA- 10 Hours- Ground School, 10 hours, lodging/food- $1000
Home Squadron- Free CFI time (but again, CFI's have to eat, live, pay rent and all that good stuff, so will sometimes take priority priority) $1000 in flight time @ approximately $70 an hour depending on gas prices and what a/c you fly - $14.2 hours
All in all, price wise it is pretty close. At a flight encampment you will gain memories, ground school, and friendships you might not get anywhere else.
Cadet,
Since you are in MAWG, contact Capt Mike Riker of the Beverly Composite Squadron. I know that when I was a member of that squadron, he and Capt Dave Savage use to instruct cadets in the C172 assigned to the squadron.
to answer you quesitons though....
FAA minimums are 35 hrs for Private, plan on 50-60 hours hours to be realistic
If you pay 40 an hour dry, then you have to fuel the aircraft, not having my POH in front of me, quessing the 172 sucks 10 gal/hr, with Av Gas being 4.58/gal that equals 45.80 / hr for fuel.
85/hr for flight training, 55 hours of training = 4700 for private flight training.
FAA Flight Time Requirements.
Structured Flight School (Part 141) = 35hr
Unstructured (CAP and the rest - Part 61) = 40 hrs
Plan on 50 - 60 to not be self defeating.... But it CAN be done in less. Logbook entry after my Private Pilot FAA check flight = 42.3 hours
As a side note- my 141 school requires 40 hours just as a part 61 ride would. Although it depends on what the FAA has certified. Average private is still much more and is approximately $9,000.
My understanding of the cadet flight encampments are they only take the cadet through solo which would only be about 1/3 to 1/2 of the instruction you'd need to get a private ticket.
Like EVERYTHING in CAP if you really want it, are willing to work for it you can get it. I got my Instrument thru CAP, it took more time but it ended up being 1/3 the price and the instructors are not 300 hour 22 year olds. Most of the instructors are guys with 20 years expereince and thousands of hours, thus the quality is far superior to what you get at your average FBO and the planes are better too. You just have to work with these guys.
Now Tucker you being in Worcester is an issue, but if you are willing to drive to Beverly I bet that Reiker will work with you. Or if you are willing to pay to have him ferry from KBVY to KORH, then I bet he will work with you.
Quote from: Frenchie on June 24, 2008, 12:30:46 PM
My understanding of the cadet flight encampments are they only take the cadet through solo which would only be about 1/3 to 1/2 of the instruction you'd need to get a private ticket.
True enough, but ~$700-1000 to go from zero to solo ain't bad...
^And I paid $500 with food and lodging. There are even better deals out there someplace.
I did my private, along with 5 other cadets from my unit, in 2004. I believe the end-all cost was around $1900. But that was back in the day when the 172 was $55/hr wet. Plus I managed to get some stick time with the IP doing C9 maintenance flights. But I was an allstar and completed in 40.5 hours, YMMV.
Yeah, but you forgot to tell you had "millions" of hours on flight sim. See ya in a few weeks, Capt DG!
Haha, not millions, but I would definitely have a star and wreath on my wings if it all counted.... :P
Allstar, Fedor?
I still have that tire.
Should I take a picture of it and put it on here for all to see and ask for critique?
Oh, this sounds good. You have my affirmative vote!
Quote from: DG on July 01, 2008, 02:41:24 AM
Allstar, Fedor?
I still have that tire.
Should I take a picture of it and put it on here for all to see and ask for critique?
:o :o I thought I recognized those initials....
It's one of those lessons learned. And besides, you passed me on my solo stage check ;D
I believe a story needs to be told.
All in favor say Aye !
Long story short, I was a post-solo student working on short field landings in a 172 I hadn't really flown much before. Put it down and got on the brakes a little harder then I needed to, and put a nice bald spot in the tires. Must have landed on the same spot a few times because, the next day, I was partway through one of my solo XC's and noticed the tire started to have cord showing. Stopped the flight, made phone calls, and got the tire replaced at the field I was at. Continued on my merry way.
If DG is the person I think he is, he kept the tire, partially as a teaching aide, and partially to bust my cohones about it, even 4 years later :P :P :P
Fair enough, Captain Steven.
As a teaching aid, the identities of individuals never are and never will be disclosed. Including the instructor who endorsed you and released you in that a/c for your long solo cross-country.
And it is good, from time to time, to bring you down to earth. ;D
As of 1 July 2008, the Pennsylvania Wing aircraft rates per hobbs hours are as follows:
C-172 - $ 76.00
C-182 - $113.00
C-182RG - $119.00
U-206 - $135.00
Maule - $ 96.00
GA8 - $125.00
These rates include maintenance, fuel, equipment, and oil.
Each rate is calculated by fuel usage and maintenance cost from National. The Aircraft rates are continually evaluated for rate adjustments.
Quote from: SJFedor on July 01, 2008, 06:41:59 AM
Long story short, I was a post-solo student working on short field landings in a 172 I hadn't really flown much before. Put it down and got on the brakes a little harder then I needed to, and put a nice bald spot in the tires. Must have landed on the same spot a few times because, the next day, I was partway through one of my solo XC's and noticed the tire started to have cord showing. Stopped the flight, made phone calls, and got the tire replaced at the field I was at. Continued on my merry way.
If DG is the person I think he is, he kept the tire, partially as a teaching aide, and partially to bust my cohones about it, even 4 years later :P :P :P
What is it with you DYL people? ;D
Quote from: WT on June 30, 2008, 07:55:52 PM
Yeah, but you forgot to tell you had "millions" of hours on flight sim. See ya in a few weeks, Capt DG!
Capt DG refers to the fact that Fedor was named the "Distinguished Graduate" Mission Pilot at the 2007 NESA MAS.
And WT was his Instructor Mission Pilot.
Which, one would conclude, obviously he learned much from his past "learnings" and that it was a teaching aid!
Quote from: DG on July 01, 2008, 12:07:38 PM
As of 1 July 2008, the Pennsylvania Wing aircraft rates per hobbs hours are as follows:
C-172 - $ 76.00
C-182 - $113.00
C-182RG - $119.00
U-206 - $135.00
Maule - $ 96.00
GA8 - $125.00
These rates include maintenance, fuel, equipment, and oil.
Each rate is calculated by fuel usage and maintenance cost from National. The Aircraft rates are continually evaluated for rate adjustments.
I think its amazing that one wing could have such variety in airframes.
Ive been in CAP for about eight years and I still have yet to see the bottom four.
Then again, Ive never yet seen a CAP Colonel.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 01, 2008, 06:59:49 PM
I think its amazing that one wing could have such variety in airframes.
Ive been in CAP for about eight years and I still have yet to see the bottom four.
Then again, Ive never yet seen a CAP Colonel.
I think you have to look at how often those airframes are even available within the wing. The GA-8 is a region asset so it's not always gonna be in the same wing. I have a feeling the 206 mentioned is NER too, but PAWG might have their own.
Also, don't you have to get to a wing conference anyhow to complete your PD requirements and see a Col once.
Quote from: FW on July 01, 2008, 01:46:30 PM
Quote from: SJFedor on July 01, 2008, 06:41:59 AM
Long story short, I was a post-solo student working on short field landings in a 172 I hadn't really flown much before. Put it down and got on the brakes a little harder then I needed to, and put a nice bald spot in the tires. Must have landed on the same spot a few times because, the next day, I was partway through one of my solo XC's and noticed the tire started to have cord showing. Stopped the flight, made phone calls, and got the tire replaced at the field I was at. Continued on my merry way.
If DG is the person I think he is, he kept the tire, partially as a teaching aide, and partially to bust my cohones about it, even 4 years later :P :P :P
What is it with you DYL people? ;D
I'm a rehabilitated DYL person >:D
Quote from: DG on July 01, 2008, 12:03:50 PM
And it is good, from time to time, to bring you down to earth. ;D
You were always the one person
screaming insisting that I focus. ;D
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 01, 2008, 06:59:49 PM
[Then again, Ive never yet seen a CAP Colonel.
;D If you ever meet me, take a look at the back of my pants. For some reason I tend to have a CAP Col on it most of the time.
Kissing, Kicking Chewing or Riding?
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 06, 2008, 06:09:22 AM
Kissing, Kicking Chewing or Riding?
That about takes care of it.....
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 01, 2008, 06:59:49 PM
I think its amazing that one wing could have such variety in airframes.
Ive been in CAP for about eight years and I still have yet to see the bottom four.
Then again, Ive never yet seen a CAP Colonel.
Then its time for you to spend a little time up North where people live. ;D
We had a Maule about 6 years ago, the Region GA-8 is at Wing HQ, and we had generals and colonels at the Region conference, guided training event I'm sure there were a few (Colonels) at Johnson, and there are bound to be several at Summer.