Anyone here have any APRS experience? I've been bouncing around a few ideas with a few people regarding APRS type tracking using the CAP Radio network to keep everything in house while we're out on missions. I've done a bit of research and looked at the APRS websites and while the aprs.fi site is pretty cool, it's open to the outside... what would it take to develop a system similar to this that operated on CAPFM frequencies so that we could monitor all of our assets during missions?
The current method here in TX for mission tracking is CAPERS, which, while I like it a lot, leaves a lot to be desired between radio calls. By integrating an APRS system via the CAPFM network, wouldn't we be able to do some really amazing things as far as mission safety?
TIA
Okay, I'll bite. What is APRS? ???
Automatic Packet Reporting System (http://www.aprs.org/)
An early document (http://www.aprs.org/APRS-docs/APRS.TXT) that explained what APRS is.
The reason we were thinking about this is because of a company called SpiderTracks that has a system that uses a GPS bug linked to a sat phone (WAY too expensive for CAP). Furthermore, I use Glympse on my smart phone and have been pushing for our ground teams to use it too - when they're in cell range.
Personally, I think use of Glympse is fantastic for large areas that have cell phone coverage - but once you're out of range, it stops sending position updates.
APRS is basically a system that runs off the amateur radio network using digipeters and internet gateways to collect message bursts from a bug like a microtrak that includes GPS, and even an added message. If we could come up with a way of encoding an 'ops normal' message into the signal, it would make things SO much easier.
Ideally though, it would run on the CAP radios rather than on the open network - if you look at http://www.aprs.fi (http://www.aprs.fi), you can see everyone out there - cool, but bad for opsec.
First, CAP use of amateur freqs is forbidden so off the shelf use of APRS is a no go. Second, I don't think any data is allowed to be sent over CAP Freqs other than the new HF systems so a modified version of APRS probably won't happen either.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 04, 2012, 10:10:33 PM
First, CAP use of amateur freqs is forbidden so off the shelf use of APRS is a no go. Second, I don't think any data is allowed to be sent over CAP Freqs other than the new HF systems so a modified version of APRS probably won't happen either.
OK... so let's come up with some other options!
Or at the very least, lets start working on what needs to change for data to be sent over the CAP frequencies?
Quote from: davidsinn on March 04, 2012, 10:10:33 PM
First, CAP use of amateur freqs is forbidden so off the shelf use of APRS is a no go. Second, I don't think any data is allowed to be sent over CAP Freqs other than the new HF systems so a modified version of APRS probably won't happen either.
Can you provide a citation for the
I don't think any data is allowed to be sent over CAP Freqs other than the new HF systems
Quote from: ipjaeger on March 04, 2012, 10:51:38 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 04, 2012, 10:10:33 PM
First, CAP use of amateur freqs is forbidden so off the shelf use of APRS is a no go. Second, I don't think any data is allowed to be sent over CAP Freqs other than the new HF systems so a modified version of APRS probably won't happen either.
Can you provide a citation for theI don't think any data is allowed to be sent over CAP Freqs other than the new HF systems
Start with CAPR 100-1.
Quote from: CAPR 100-1f. Effective with the date of narrowband transition in any given area, former wideband uses of packet radio and Single Frame TV (SFTV) shall cease because the only permissible emissions on the narrowband frequencies are voice.
APRS is technically capable of running on CAP frequencies (meaning you don't have to use HAM frequencies), but our own regulations prevent us from utilizing the technology.
We have a forum member here who's an expert on such things and sells APRS equipment, perhaps he could chime in with more information.
Thanks Fubar!
Quote from: ipjaeger on March 04, 2012, 10:49:39 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 04, 2012, 10:10:33 PM
First, CAP use of amateur freqs is forbidden so off the shelf use of APRS is a no go. Second, I don't think any data is allowed to be sent over CAP Freqs other than the new HF systems so a modified version of APRS probably won't happen either.
OK... so let's come up with some other options!
Or at the very least, lets start working on what needs to change for data to be sent over the CAP frequencies?
Several Wings are already using an alternative:
SPOT TrackersLouisiana Wing funded the purchase of a SPOT Tracker for each aircraft almost 3 years ago, and we have gotten incredible value from them. You can take a look to see what some of our status displays look like here: http://lawgcap.org/lawg-content/Spot.htm (http://lawgcap.org/lawg-content/Spot.htm)
There is a subscription cost, but it is not particularly onerous compared to other Aviation expenses. The SPOTs are also entirely satellite-based, so they do not need any ground network in order to function.
They are limited in what they will do, we almost always have ours set to send a Position Report every 15 minutes. This provides an incredible increase in situational awareness at a mission base. You always know where every aircraft is, or was within a 30 minute window.
It isn't quite a real-time Blue Force Tracker capability, but for the money it is phenomenal.
It is also off-the-shelf and requires ZERO upkeep besides paying the subscription and occasional AA batteries, unlike a home-grown APRS system. Home-grown solutions often are wonderful until the implementer leaves CAP, moves, etc. and now personnel who aren't familiar with the system try to keep it running. CAP is filled with broken projects like that.
I'm happy to answer any questions you have about the system and LA Wing's use of it.
Good Luck!
Thom
Quote from: Thom on March 04, 2012, 11:30:26 PM
Louisiana Wing funded the purchase of a SPOT Tracker for each aircraft almost 3 years ago, and we have gotten incredible value from them. You can take a look to see what some of our status displays look like here: http://lawgcap.org/lawg-content/Spot.htm (http://lawgcap.org/lawg-content/Spot.htm)
That's quite nice. I've seen USAF feedback regarding SPOT use at OPSEVALS; they like SPOT.
One question though. Once you've published the links, do you have to opt out of SPOT use for secret-squirrel missions such as counter-drug flights? Or is there a way to continue using SPOT but hide it from public view?
Quote from: wuzafuzz on March 04, 2012, 11:38:07 PM
Quote from: Thom on March 04, 2012, 11:30:26 PM
Louisiana Wing funded the purchase of a SPOT Tracker for each aircraft almost 3 years ago, and we have gotten incredible value from them. You can take a look to see what some of our status displays look like here: http://lawgcap.org/lawg-content/Spot.htm (http://lawgcap.org/lawg-content/Spot.htm)
That's quite nice. I've seen USAF feedback regarding SPOT use at OPSEVALS; they like SPOT.
One question though. Once you've published the links, do you have to opt out of SPOT use for secret-squirrel missions such as counter-drug flights? Or is there a way to continue using SPOT but hide it from public view?
Currently there is no good option for using it on CD or HLS missions, or any others that require 'secret squirrel' security. The only choices are to have position reports viewable by 'EVERYONE' in the world, or only by the person with the credentials to log in to the SPOT account. We really don't like giving those out to every CD mission manager, etc. So, we forego using SPOT on those kinds of missions in favor of manual position reporting.
That's just a trade-off we have to take for the low entry and operating costs.
And, yes, the USAF folks seemed very happy about SPOT at our most recent Eval.
Thom
Good to know. I was hoping you could expand and contract security on demand. Still, SPOT is tremendously useful.
I've pitched the idea to my squadron and considered buying one of my own as well. It's nice to have while hiking, flying, and off-roading. I do play with APRS on my own time, but not with CAP.
Thanks for sharing.
APCO 25 radios send data, so I guess they must be against regs...... ;D Okay, APRS is a means of sending data, bidirectionally, not just one way. It would not present any technical challenges ( other than getting approval to jack into CAP radio Microphone inputs) to send and receive position and message data; either pre-cofigured "Op's normal" type traffic or using a keyboard, bidirectional messaging. The format is used by Hams, but the only real impediment to use it on other radio services is that the data is open source, and anyone monitoring it can decode our traffic, including asset location. This is not a problem, if CAP wants APRS, its cheap to implement ( an encoder is about 30 bucks) and all you need to make it work is a radio cable and a GPS. We have the resources to build a system like APRS.fi that would be closed to the public, and track only CAP resources, and we can even encrypt the over-the-air data. ( The FBI had us take a look at doing just this very thing) I get calls about twice a week from CAP people wondering why they can't use the $150.00 10 Watt tracker I make, for CAP, but other SAR groups can use it. We are different beasts. They are non-paid volunteer hams and not sworn LEO's, and we are sewn inextricably to Uncle Sams' big boy rules. I talk to a lot of Cap people interested in doing CAP APRS, and if anyone wanted to start the ball rolling, I would jump in as best I could. ( My body is still trying to kill me after a fun-filled year in the South after Hurricane Katrina, but some new medications are starting to make me think I may live a bit longer....I am just not buying any green bananas!)
Major Lord
So if I carry a SPOT tracker will mission base stop bugging me every half hour? >:D Sometimes it feels like I spend more time checking in than I do searching.
Latitude.
Done. Anything else?
Quote from: Eclipse on March 05, 2012, 12:22:24 AM
Latitude.
Done. Anything else?
We aren't allowed to use cell phones in flight. Plus cell service is nonexistent in many of the places our ground teams go, at least in Colorado.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on March 04, 2012, 11:38:07 PM
Quote from: Thom on March 04, 2012, 11:30:26 PM
Louisiana Wing funded the purchase of a SPOT Tracker for each aircraft almost 3 years ago, and we have gotten incredible value from them. You can take a look to see what some of our status displays look like here: http://lawgcap.org/lawg-content/Spot.htm (http://lawgcap.org/lawg-content/Spot.htm)
That's quite nice. I've seen USAF feedback regarding SPOT use at OPSEVALS; they like SPOT.
One question though. Once you've published the links, do you have to opt out of SPOT use for secret-squirrel missions such as counter-drug flights? Or is there a way to continue using SPOT but hide it from public view?
You just turn off the unit if you don't want it to report.
Maybe some Wings run their CD missions as "secret squirrel" operations. I once ran the CAWG CD program, which was one of (if not the largest)largest CD programs in CAP and the missions were seldom or never run as "secret" missions. First, the request for one went to the Ops Ctr at Maxwell in completely open emails. Second, they were entered into WMIRS and we all know that they are not encrypted in that system. Third, when we flew them, we simply didn't tell anyone not with the need to know what we were doing. The cops we supported all knew who we were and what we were doing. Fourth, we usually used flight following with the FAA if it was useful to do so.
Ergo, tracking the mission on APRS or SPOT isn't a big deal: by the time that some bad guy goes to the trouble to identify and track the mission, it is over and the aircraft has landed.
CAP doesn't fit into the clandestine ops area very well, except for the conspiracy theory advocates. In another life, I worked in clandestine ops, so I have a little knowledge.
+1
If we are working agains anyone that has a stong intel process....nothing that CAP does or does not do is going to stop them from getting the intel they want.
The will simply pay someone in the CD shop to provide them with the info. 8)
And the targets we are tracking are not all that dynamic. It is not like they will spot us on the APRS web site and say "Here they come, let's get out of town!"
I believe that our Cessna 182 fleet has ADS-B installed and this can be monitored (aircraft tracked) with the purchase of ADS-B monitoring equipment. Example see:
http://www.airnavsystems.com/radarbox/index.html (http://www.airnavsystems.com/radarbox/index.html)
Another option (which is private) is to install an asset/vehicle tracking transponder in the aircraft. Example of what appears to be a cost effective system see:
http://www.spidertracks.com/ (http://www.spidertracks.com/)
RM
A list of CAP aircraft being tracked as part of an ADS-B study shows only two with ADS-B, both 182Ts, but both with position information not available. There are 104 182s on the list without it, of which 98 are 182Ts.
Having ADS-B, with position data enabled, would be sweet, but expensive, a lot more than the 406 ELT installations, and how many years did that take? Since ADS-B isn't planned to be required for many more years, I wouldn't expect it on CAP aircraft until it's required.
The Radarbox and SBS-1 will track Mode-S, which all the aircraft have, but that doesn't provide position data, just that the airplane is powered on and that the beacon can be received.
The OP mentioned Spidertracks.
Mike
Going back to APRS, CAP used it in AZ Wing for a while. It was great for the most part. Still a few dead spots but with no authorized way to move data now it won't work. We used the old packet system to shuttle the data around the entire state via a few data chains, one that would even use all the airborne aircraft to circulate position reports. It all fed into the MMU, predecessor to the IMU and you could see all the planes working in the grids and what grids were hot.
There is a spot input tool in the gridassist module in IMU.
You can create several kinds of shared pages from the same spot data and switch them on and off.
If you are doing a mission that requires restricted access to the position data set a password on the shared page.
It does not have to be the same password that gives access to the account and management info.