Newer Member- Ground Team and Medic Badges Question

[chaser430]

Hello All!
I am fairly new to CAP- in about 6 months. I am coming up on my first promotion but I put in to get an initial appointment into 1st LT because I am a medical services professional and medic.
I am also about to go to Ground team and Aircrew SarEx trainings to be certified in both.
My question is- there are 2 badges insignias that I can wear, the medic badge and the ground team once I am certified- Can you wear both badges on your BDU or do you just pick one?
Also I see people with an emergency services badge with a dog on it- what is with that? Can you wear it once certified?

Also if anyone has experience with promotions I would be all ears because my Commander seems very confused as to how to send it my packet even though I thought I included every Regulation and policy backing up my request.
My issue is I am due to be a 2LT on Sept 3rd- I know the Commander has to approve it but I feel like I am in quandary- I want to obviously wear my proper rank but I can't wear anything until its approved and I don't want to waste money on buying 2LT insignia to only have to rebuy 1st LT insignia some time later.
I just don't know what to do here?
Can someone please offer any suggestions? Thanks!

[arajca]

For the easy questions:
You may wear both the GTM badge and EMT-badge, IF you're a current or former EMT.

The ES patch - it's not a badge - is authorized for wear when you have completed at least 1 ES qualification above GES. GTM3 counts for this.

How long do you have to wait for your special promotion? If it's going to be a while, you may not have a choice about getting both.

[Eclipse]

My question is- there are 2 badges insignias that I can wear, the medic badge and the ground team once I am certified- Can you wear both badges on your BDU or do you just pick one?

One or the other in that spot.  See below CAPM 39-1 is the guide.  (We've gone back and forth on this over the years, anyone with a cite either way would be great.)

Also I see people with an emergency services badge with a dog on it- what is with that? Can you wear it once certified?

An optional patch worn by NASCAR drivers after completing GES and one other ES qualification.  has to be approved in eservices.

Also if anyone has experience with promotions I would be all ears because my Commander seems very confused as to how to send it my packet even though I thought I included every Regulation and policy backing up my request.
My issue is I am due to be a 2LT on Sept 3rd- I know the Commander has to approve it but I feel like I am in quandary- I want to obviously wear my proper rank but I can't wear anything until its approved and I don't want to waste money on buying 2LT insignia to only have to rebuy 1st LT insignia some time later.
I just don't know what to do here?
Can someone please offer any suggestions? Thanks!

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=21384.msg392672#msg392672
CAPR 35-5 and 160-1 are very clear on the process.  If you CC is confused, he should consult the next echelon for advice.

[chaser430]

I thought it was a pretty straightforward process as well but my Commander was not sure what to do with all the info I gave him. I know from the Regs he can approve the 1st LT but I guess I am the first one to ask for this in our Squadron.

Well the 2 patches I qualify for the ES and my Civil Air Patrol Cloth Badge: Emergency Medical Technician Basic- can I wear both on a BDU or do you have to choose between them?
If you can wear both how do you put them on together?
thanks again

[RMW14]

Here you go, direct from CAPM 39-1

5.1.1.3.6. Aviation (CAP, USAF or other service Aeronautical, Space, Cyberspace) and Occupational Badges (CAP and USAF). Two embroidered Aviation or Occupational badges may be worn sewn to the shirt 1⁄2 inch above the "Civil Air Patrol" tape over the left breast pocket. The second badge will be centered 1⁄2 inch above the first badge. Chaplain and CAP aviation badges are mandatory and will always be worn in the highest position. Not more than a combined total of two of these badges will be worn on the wearer's left. When more than one CAP aviation badge is authorized, only one will be worn. If a military aviation badge (aeronautical, space or cyberspace) is worn, it will be worn in the second position. If chaplain badge is worn, it is worn in the highest position. Parachutist wings are optional; however, when worn will be placed above an occupational badge or below a chaplain, aeronautical, space or cyberspace badge. Occupational badges (excluding chaplain) are optional. All ultramarine blue insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia. When placing multiple insignia in the same area, measure from the insignia-to-insignia not blue to blue.

[chaser430]

Thank you

[jeders]

I thought it was a pretty straightforward process as well but my Commander was not sure what to do with all the info I gave him. I know from the Regs he can approve the 1st LT but I guess I am the first one to ask for this in our Squadron.

The process is fairly straight forward, but special appointments don't follow the normal flow so not everyone knows the process. Did one for an AEO a little while back and it got held up at group because the people there weren't 100% certain on the approval path.

Well the 2 patches I qualify for the ES and my Civil Air Patrol Cloth Badge: Emergency Medical Technician Basic- can I wear both on a BDU or do you have to choose between them?
If you can wear both how do you put them on together?
thanks again

Alright, you're going back and forth on terms here, so let's try to clarify a little. There are badges (both metal and cloth) and there are patches (cloth only). The EMT Badge is worn on the left side of the uniform over the branch tape and can be worn if you are a current or former EMT, as arajca said.

The ES Patch is a patch only and not a badge; it is worn on the right side above the name tape. Do not confuse it with the ES Specialty Track Badge (metal only). You will be able to wear the ES Patch once you have completed General ES and one additional Specialty Qualification such as GTM or Mission Scanner. Being an EMT is not a specialty Qualification and does not entitle you to wear the ES Patch.

Additionally, as Eclipse pointed out, both the ES Patch and GTM badge need to be approved in eServices/Operations Qualifications before they are worn.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Jeders-

I am writing this as I think Chaser made a mistake when he wrote wearing his "ES badge" on message #3.

If you read his original post and title of this thread, what he is asking is being able to wear both his GTM Basic and EMT-Basic badge on his uniform.

What is confusing is that he refers to the cloth versions of those badges as patches.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The question begs to be asked: If there's already a badge associated with emergency services ratings — whether it's the GTM badge or aviators' wings or even a communications badge — why on earth do we still have that silly ES patch?

[Luis R. Ramos]

The question needs to be asked.

Why not to have a unifying insignia or patch? That is the purpose of the ES patch.

The different ES badges separate us. The ES patch unifies us on a service.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The question needs to be asked.

Why not to have a unifying insignia or patch? That is the purpose of the ES patch.

The different ES badges separate us. The ES patch unifies us on a service.

The patch was around before all these other badges that denote ES service. It was THE emblem for those who didn't have a badge, like ground team members and others. Now, there's no need for it except as another silly Boy Scout patch. It's probably time to kill it. You want something that unifies us, the uniform and the mission already do that.

[Luis R. Ramos]

...something that unifies us, the uniform and the mission already do that.

Except that all of us that wear the uniform are not ES personnel. Nor are all of them mission-qualified. The patch does that.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

...something that unifies us, the uniform and the mission already do that.

Except that all of us that wear the uniform are not ES personnel. Nor are all of them mission-qualified. The patch does that.

You may not have the CAP longevity to remember when the patch was the only means people with a 101 card (and who weren't aviators) had to identify as ES-qualified. The GT badges are relatively recent, as is the IC badge and myriad others. The ES patch, whether it's the plane or Pluto, is redundant these days. It's time to kill it.

[Luis R. Ramos]

It does not matter. It has been institutionalized.

As to my service, joined CAP in 1985 when a graduate student at Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana. Served for two years. 1984-1985 was one of them. Then joined again in 1996 to about 2006. Then went dormant, and started again in 2011 to now.

See the airplane in my old CAPF 101?

Again, the patch is to unify all of us that are in ES Services. And if you "kill" the patch, let's kill other traditions as well.

Why hold to the old story of "sunk two German submarines...?"

Why hold to ribbons?

[Fubar]

You may not have the CAP longevity to remember when the patch was the only means people with a 101 card (and who weren't aviators) had to identify as ES-qualified. The GT badges are relatively recent, as is the IC badge and myriad others. The ES patch, whether it's the plane or Pluto, is redundant these days. It's time to kill it.

What do the mission staff assistants wear? Or the mission radio operators? Or the flight line marshalers? Mission safety officers?

I'm sure you get the point. We may not like the patch, but it does serve a purpose for those qualifications that do not have their own badges. Perhaps a compromise would be the patch can only be worn if no other ES patches/badges/bling are worn.

[Luis R. Ramos]

No, NO, no, NOPE!

NO compromises. I cherish all that I have attained, and I want to keep them.

My GTL badge, my ES Services badge, and, of course, my ES Patch. Which I earned back in Indiana.

[JC004]

You get 5 years to like wearing it, and then must either wear a blueberry suit or lose the ES patch. 

[Pace]

Easy with the fruit themed nicknames, cabbage patch 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

It does not matter. It has been institutionalized.... the patch is to unify all of us that are in ES Services. And if you "kill" the patch, let's kill other traditions as well.

It may have been on the books all this time, but it's superfluous. If you're an MSA, chances are you've also qualified another way. In public affairs, for instance, you have to be an MSA now, but you also need to be a PIO to get past the technician level. Specialty tracks support the mission, and if they don't, they don't belong.

Why hold to the old story of "sunk two German submarines...?"

Easy. That story's been debunked. After carefully studying all available documents, the CAP National History Program says there's no evidence of even one CAP sinking.

[Luis R. Ramos]

You still do not sound logical.

Having insignias for specific specialties separate the specialties as they are, on their own. The ES Patch gathers all in its own cocoon, as Emergency Services.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

You still do not sound logical.

Having insignias for specific specialties separate the specialties as they are, on their own. The ES Patch gathers all in its own cocoon, as Emergency Services.

If you don't like that aviators get their own badges, or that ground team members, ICs, medics and others have their own, then maybe we do away with all of them and only authorize one badge. Either that, or the silver badges remain and every other 101 specialty gets a blanket badge.

It's a moot point in the long run. The specialty tracks are slowly being rewritten to embrace ops quals, as they should be. Maybe in the long run, the ES patch goes away (it's going to, anyway), as well as the insipid specialty-track shields, and our members are authorized to wear specialty badges that correlate both to specialty and ops quals... because both exist together in harmony, as they probably should.

[Eclipse]

I think you'd get a lot more push back on losing the PD badges then adding either a generic or a few
more ES badges.

There are a lot of member who never have, nor ever will do anything in ops, and their specialties
are unrelated to ops in anyway, most of them, actually.

[JC004]

It's a moot point in the long run. The specialty tracks are slowly being rewritten to embrace ops quals, as they should be. Maybe in the long run, the ES patch goes away (it's going to, anyway), as well as the insipid specialty-track shields, and our members are authorized to wear specialty badges that correlate both to specialty and ops quals... because both exist together in harmony, as they probably should.

Cadets don't have specialty tracks.

[DakRadz]

It's a moot point in the long run. The specialty tracks are slowly being rewritten to embrace ops quals, as they should be. Maybe in the long run, the ES patch goes away (it's going to, anyway), as well as the insipid specialty-track shields, and our members are authorized to wear specialty badges that correlate both to specialty and ops quals... because both exist together in harmony, as they probably should.

Since our parent service has badges for everything, are you insinuating a similar badge or simply deleting all of the specialty track insignia period?

Now, I for one wouldn't mind a redesign. The shields... Safety, ES, and I think Comms are the only decent looking ones. Non-MS paint badges would be nice

1st Lt Raduenz

[biomed441]

Now, I for one wouldn't mind a redesign. The shields... Safety, ES, and I think Comms are the only decent looking ones. Non-MS paint badges would be nice

Agreed. Even if we didn't work a re-design, just stamp the design into the metal, mirror finish. 

[PHall]

It's a moot point in the long run. The specialty tracks are slowly being rewritten to embrace ops quals, as they should be. Maybe in the long run, the ES patch goes away (it's going to, anyway), as well as the insipid specialty-track shields, and our members are authorized to wear specialty badges that correlate both to specialty and ops quals... because both exist together in harmony, as they probably should.

Since our parent service has badges for everything, are you insinuating a similar badge or simply deleting all of the specialty track insignia period?

Now, I for one wouldn't mind a redesign. The shields... Safety, ES, and I think Comms are the only decent looking ones. Non-MS paint badges would be nice

1st Lt Raduenz

If you're talking about the Occupational Badges, yes almost everyone in the Air Force has one, but, they are not required to be worn.
Highly encouraged yes, but not required to be worn.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I think you'd get a lot more push back on losing the PD badges then adding either a generic or a few
more ES badges.

There are a lot of member who never have, nor ever will do anything in ops, and their specialties
are unrelated to ops in anyway, most of them, actually.

I would contend that anyone who works in logistics, in cadet programs or in the chaplaincy are indirectly contributing to emergency services — they supply the mission, they train the labor and they counsel grieving people. While they're not directly involved, they're supporting the overall mission.

In public affairs, you can't get past the tech rating without being qualified as a PIO, so the public affairs badge with a star or star and wreath shows emergency services qualification. And maybe if we ever ditch those painted clip-art badges for something professional, the basic badge in every specialty within reason (or in every major field — do we need badges for EVERY little niche, when larger areas of expertise would do?) would be for those who don't incorporate ops into their work. Some may never get past that, and if they don't, they'll likely never be a FGO, for what that's worth.

Cadets don't have specialty tracks.

No, but I wore a communications badge as a cadet in the 1980s. I'm sure regulations would/could be written around how cadets would qualify for the same insignia as adult members.

[Eclipse]

I would contend that anyone who works in logistics, in cadet programs or in the chaplaincy are indirectly contributing to emergency services — they supply the mission, they train the labor and they counsel grieving people. While they're not directly involved, they're supporting the overall mission.

Anyone?  No.  The above looks nice on a t-shirt, but does work out in the practical math of CAP.  There are far too many "cadet" units that actually take bizarre pride in not being involved in OPS whatsoever.

This is akin to senior flights that want nothing to do with "kids".

[JC004]

Anyone?  No.  The above looks nice on a t-shirt, but does work out in the practical math of CAP.  There are far too many "cadet" units that actually take bizarre pride in not being involved in OPS whatsoever.

This is nonsense.  Sadly, some people think that way, but it is nonsense.  What does CAP have over, say, JROTC and such?  You, as a 13 year old, can do actual operational missions for the United States Air Force.  You can save someone's life.  You build character and leadership ability when you participate in operational missions.  Placing service before self, practically, makes a difference in the individual. 

They learn discipline, teamwork, appreciation of the outdoors, fitness... 

They go on to become our firefighters, EMTs, and the like. 

I put qualified cadets on any mission I can get for them.  Save a life, or win a wing cadet competition title?  The choice is clear to me.

[Eclipse]

Preaching to the choir, brotha.  I think ES should be incorporated into the CP, maybe at Phase II or III
as a core component in the same way camping and fieldcraft are in Boy Scouts and similar organizations,
if only for the self-sufficiency and confidence it builds, but that takes work, effort, knowledge and initiative.

Much better to "just have the kids drill again tonight".

[Alaric]

Anyone?  No.  The above looks nice on a t-shirt, but does work out in the practical math of CAP.  There are far too many "cadet" units that actually take bizarre pride in not being involved in OPS whatsoever.

This is nonsense.  Sadly, some people think that way, but it is nonsense.  What does CAP have over, say, JROTC and such?  You, as a 13 year old, can do actual operational missions for the United States Air Force.  You can save someone's life.  You build character and leadership ability when you participate in operational missions.  Placing service before self, practically, makes a difference in the individual. 

They learn discipline, teamwork, appreciation of the outdoors, fitness... 

They go on to become our firefighters, EMTs, and the like. 

I put qualified cadets on any mission I can get for them.  Save a life, or win a wing cadet competition title?  The choice is clear to me.

We have a three pronged mission, there is no reason that everyone has to be equally involved with everything.   

[Eclipse]

We have a three pronged mission, there is no reason that everyone has to be equally involved with everything.

Agreed.  Everyone.

Squadrons on the whole, however, should be accomplishing all three missions, and finding the people necessary
when they have some who want to specialize.

Yes, the current system allows it, though more through negligence then design, no there's no strategic plan for who does what.

That doesn't change the fact that when a unit chooses to ignore one or more of the missions, then their entire AOR loses
that capability, and these days not only is there no overlap, there's such a shortage of units that this generally means
that an entire village, city, or even county goes without whatever capability the unit CC has decided "ain't his bag"
(while still reaping the ancillary benefits of the organizaiton as a whole being involved).

[Майор Хаткевич]

Preaching to the choir, brotha.  I think ES should be incorporated into the CP, maybe at Phase II or III
as a core component in the same way camping and fieldcraft are in Boy Scouts and similar organizations,
if only for the self-sufficiency and confidence it builds, but that takes work, effort, knowledge and initiative.

Much better to "just have the kids drill again tonight".

Not a fan of mandatory ES for cadets. The CP, as you know, has tons of stuff to do besides drill, so I'd rather cadets focus on CP opportunities, and do ES if they want.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I would contend that anyone who works in logistics, in cadet programs or in the chaplaincy are indirectly contributing to emergency services — they supply the mission, they train the labor and they counsel grieving people. While they're not directly involved, they're supporting the overall mission.

Anyone?  No.  The above looks nice on a t-shirt, but does work out in the practical math of CAP.  There are far too many "cadet" units that actually take bizarre pride in not being involved in OPS whatsoever.

This is akin to senior flights that want nothing to do with "kids".

No disagreement here. But I'd say in the grand scheme of things, once you get to the 20,000-foot view and away from the turf wars and fiefdoms of local squadrons and even groups, you see they all contribute.

It angers me that some senior units are snobby about "kids." It also rankles me when we have people so slavishly devoted to "the children" that they forsake not only what CAP does, but drop any propriety and become denmothers/denfathers talking about "my kids" or "my cadets." Those people deserve a punch in the face.

It also annoys me when people are so focused on emergency services that they only see cadets as ground-team assets. When squadrons with airplanes don't play nice with other units' pilots because they don't want those others using "their" airplane. When cadets in one squadron are taught something wrong and another unit's cadets are taught something else wrong, and both (and others) meet at a cadet encampment and don't speak the same language.

The overarching issue is that we don't always keep our eyes on the ball. We're an organization guided by rules and regulations, but for many, when it's convenient to bend or break them, bend and break indeed. And there are some who just enjoy having troops and being able to tell them what to do (those people also deserve a punch in the face, especially when they wind up on wing staff in a key position and don't do anything except for friends).

Either the Core Values mean something or they don't. And if they don't, in the grand scheme, we need to ask: Why are we here?

To steer back to the topic, even though we have too many of those ugly shield badges, we don't have unnecessary or irrelevant specialty tracks — though the tracks appeal to the CAP mission in different ways. Does an aerospace education officer need a 101-card signoff to advance in the AE track? No. But AE is a separate mission from emergency services. Should a public affairs officer be a qualified PIO to get senior level? If not, why?

Do we need the ES boy-scout patch to aggrandize those who might feel left out? Obviously not, since it's on its way to its demise. But we don't need 200 badges to replace it, either.