Seniors Who Make Lt Col

[Spam]

Addendum:

Oddly, in my work in the aerospace and defense sector I keep running across former cadet officers who are now pretty senior military or engineering types, who would easily qualify as a CAP Lt Col.  I was in one meeting a few years ago at a western base where someone made a reference to CAP, laughter ensued, and at the coffee break chat it turned out that we had four current or former CAP Squadron CO's present. We also had several field grades and two O-6s there who were former cadets. I've had that happen recently at Navy and Army meetings as well (one program manager O-5 made an unsolicited comment during a ride across base that he started his tactical aviation career as a cadet).

Point: there is an indeterminate gold mine of talent out there who could be recruited if challenged, integrated and folded into our org properly, and trusted to take charge and move out (and if we don't hamper and hinder and discourage them with needless crap and wickets to jump).  Current or former E whatever, O whatever... should be so easy to promote with no questions.

V/R
Spam

[Spam]

I honestly believe that former cadets have an inherent mission to give something back to those younger brothers and sisters behind us; COL Boe is right up there doing that. Semper Vigilans.

V/R
Spam

This one hits home. There's only a few other SMs of my vintage who were cadets with me. I'm glad to have them onboard, but sorely miss the input of others. It's just hard to get 20-30somethings back to CAP for some reason. Personally, my main goal was to give back at least a little bit of what I got out of the program. At least at the start.

My "home unit" has a tradition, spurred on by LTC Brian Berry, our Balsam award winning Historian, of having "CAP Veteran" parties and contact lists. While we don't expect that all these former CAP types will return to active service, enough actually do that we are enriched beyond measure by their contributions. If nothing else, having the occasional drive-by observation and comment from the sidelines has brought us up short to correct something that just wasn't right.


That unofficial "CAP Vet" program isn't directly linked to the Patron status. Its as simple as an email list, and as low-commitment as keeping in touch with a Christmas party invite (which LTC Berry sends out annually). It is as emotionally compelling as an online, shared, multi unit "family photo" album that contains legacy photos from decades past with photos from many many units from all over our Wing. Such experiences help weld together a support base and a tradition of excellence that nourishes and motivates our current volunteer set.


Stay in touch!  Keep connected! As members mature and their situations change, you never know. They might return with cadet dependents of their own in a decade or so - to a tradition that you've kept alive and vital.

Cheers,
Spam

[Eclipse]

Point: there is an indeterminate gold mine of talent out there who could be recruited if challenged, integrated and folded into our org properly, and trusted to take charge and move out (and if we don't hamper and hinder and discourage them with needless crap and wickets to jump).  Current or former E whatever, O whatever... should be so easy to promote with no questions.

Trusted to take charge and move out?

So random people in the military who may have been cadets for a couple of years are suddenly experts on dealing with volunteers?
Or even have a clue about CAP ops?

This post is literally the definition of the problem.  This idea that those in the military, by means of that affiliation alone,
have some sort of superpower in regards to an organizaiton like CAP.

My personal experience, which has always included significant deference to, not to mention hope for the above says otherwise.

For most cases, ex-military members are no more, or less, qualified to hold leadership positions in CAP then anyone else,
however they may bring preconceived notions or bias which actually makes them less effective overall.

I agree on the macro that former members, especially cadets, could be a significant resource - the problem is that CAP breaks
them at precisely the time they should be forging a life-long bond.

12-year olds are inclined to "go with the flow", and as long as they get to play on a regular basis and get some cool pins,
they will tolerate dad dropping them off every week for some marching.

But by the time they are in their teens, they are inclined to look for everything and anything "behind the curtain" to make
excuse to shed their childhood mantles and rebel, and CAP obliges them with plenty behind the curtain, so they get a look and
never come back.

CAP needs to clean out the wizard's storeroom if it ever wants to mine those former members.

[Spam]

Eclipse, I will admit that my sample set here is a bit biased... I work with people who have gone on to achieve in aerospace/defense (vice serve out four years and get out), and my experiences may not be typical. On that basis, I admit that I might need to walk back (read: RETRACT!) a couple of statements like, "promote with no questions". That, obviously, is inapprops... no one should be above questions and reviews - from the most private citizen to our highest offices.

That said, every unit I've served in has been centered near an active military/aerospace defense presence. With my biased sample set of test pilots, engineers and program managers, why - YES, I do believe that they would perform better (and have, in my experience) than even long service members without the professional experience of managing complex flying and military organizations. Within my experience, that is. I admit that a guy who gets out after four years might not be any better a CAP member than any civilian.

And yet...

Ex military members have demonstrated their willingness to put their lives before societal needs. Not that I'd be simplistic enough to accept someone as the savior of a CAP Wing only on the basis of DoD service, but in an organization where we're one third a homeowners association, one third a JROTC unit, and one third a VFW local, I'm willing to bend in favor of trusting the VFW guys over the homeowners association guys.

Also perhaps because I'm a Heinlein fan, but I admit my bias on behalf of those who serve. I cherish them, although I've not accepted all former military applicants (denied a general discharge NCO, once).

V/R
Spam

[Fubar]

Eclipse, I will admit that my sample set here is a bit biased

As is mine, but a large number of former military I've dealt with have been some of our biggest goobers. They spend all their time attempting to impress you with their military record, all while completely screwing up the staff job or command they were given.

I've worked with some solid vets to be sure, but the majority have been absolutely nothing special in the context of CAP.

[MacGruff]

Recently, we had the exact same discussion during an SLS held by our Group. Two of the instructors were ex-USAF who came in to CAP for various reasons. Both of them stated emphatically that they did NOT accept their USAF rank right away and were very glad that they did not because it allowed them the time to see how CAP differs from USAF. One of our students is a new SM (all of two months) who retired from the Air Force after 30 years, finishing as a Colonel. During the interactive sessions he was constantly asking very good questions and commented on the fact that his Air Force career (which included a few stints as a Wing and Squadron Commander) and experiences were so very different than what CAP does that he wonders how we manage to accomplish all that we do?

Bottom line - It's much better to come in as an SM and work you way up - at least for the first year or two - before asking / receiving the advanced grade that you are eligible for.

[USACAP]

You are correct.
It's not odd at all.
In my SAMS cohort more than 50% of us were former CAP cadets with at least a Mitchell award.
CAP is NOT terribly approachable for former/current military types who don't understand CAP.
I do not know what the solution is...

Addendum:

Oddly, in my work in the aerospace and defense sector I keep running across former cadet officers who are now pretty senior military or engineering types, who would easily qualify as a CAP Lt Col.  I was in one meeting a few years ago at a western base where someone made a reference to CAP, laughter ensued, and at the coffee break chat it turned out that we had four current or former CAP Squadron CO's present. We also had several field grades and two O-6s there who were former cadets. I've had that happen recently at Navy and Army meetings as well (one program manager O-5 made an unsolicited comment during a ride across base that he started his tactical aviation career as a cadet).

Point: there is an indeterminate gold mine of talent out there who could be recruited if challenged, integrated and folded into our org properly, and trusted to take charge and move out (and if we don't hamper and hinder and discourage them with needless crap and wickets to jump).  Current or former E whatever, O whatever... should be so easy to promote with no questions.

V/R
Spam

It's not rocket science dude.
A former O6 could very easily take over multiple CAP programs @ the SQN or Group level and run them.
CAP regs and pams are pretty thin.
Teaching cadet stuff, to a field grade officer, should be very very very simple and a light lift.
A War College grad should be able, with minimal front-load, to do SQN-level professional development for seniors too.

Recently, we had the exact same discussion during an SLS held by our Group. Two of the instructors were ex-USAF who came in to CAP for various reasons. Both of them stated emphatically that they did NOT accept their USAF rank right away and were very glad that they did not because it allowed them the time to see how CAP differs from USAF. One of our students is a new SM (all of two months) who retired from the Air Force after 30 years, finishing as a Colonel. During the interactive sessions he was constantly asking very good questions and commented on the fact that his Air Force career (which included a few stints as a Wing and Squadron Commander) and experiences were so very different than what CAP does that he wonders how we manage to accomplish all that we do?

Bottom line - It's much better to come in as an SM and work you way up - at least for the first year or two - before asking / receiving the advanced grade that you are eligible for.

[SarDragon]

After a crap-ton of years of membership in CAP, and watching former military folks join CAP, both officer and enlisted, I have found that very few of them are ready to:

A former O6 could very easily take over multiple CAP programs @ the SQN or Group level and run them.
CAP regs and pams are pretty thin.
Teaching cadet stuff, to a field grade officer, should be very very very simple and a light lift.
A War College grad should be able, with minimal front-load, to do SQN-level professional development for seniors too.

right out of the chute. Most people need about six months to assimilate the CAP culture, and differentiate between the paid, captive audience of the military, and the volunteer nature of CAP.

[PHall]

After a crap-ton of years of membership in CAP, and watching former military folks join CAP, both officer and enlisted, I have found that very few of them are ready to:

A former O6 could very easily take over multiple CAP programs @ the SQN or Group level and run them.
CAP regs and pams are pretty thin.
Teaching cadet stuff, to a field grade officer, should be very very very simple and a light lift.
A War College grad should be able, with minimal front-load, to do SQN-level professional development for seniors too.

right out of the chute. Most people need about six months to assimilate the CAP culture, and differentiate between the paid, captive audience of the military, and the volunteer nature of CAP.

Kinda the same deal when someone transitions from Active Duty to the Guard or Reserve. Totally different world that usually requires about a six month or so transition period.

[Chappie]

The learning of CAP culture and adapting to it is the primary reason that the Chaplain Corps did away with promotions via the "Special Recognition Program" back in the early-mid '00s.  To promote to Lt Col was just a matter of reading/testing on 2 pamphlets and breathing for a number of years.   Now there is an initial appointment at a grade commensurate with their academic training/professional standing -- and all other promotions take place as the requirements in the Senior Member Professional Development Training Program are met.  A specialty track was approved in 2011 that includes participation in all the missions for the 221 ratings.   It is a transition for most civilian members of the clergy to make from local ministry assignments to CAP. 

[Eclipse]

I would agree it takes at least 6 months for anyone to become accustomed to a new job, office culture, and
the ancillary issues involved.

6 full-time months is 960 work hours.

At 3 hours a week, being benevolent for the typical CAP unit meeting, that's 6 years.

Even cutting that by 2/rds for the harder core, that's still 2+ years, which in my experience
is about how long it takes for people who are motivated to become contributing, independently-able CAP members,
military, Ph d, MD, or other.

There are always edge cases in either way, but this is the average.

For those inclined to disagree, what, specifically, beyond uniform wear and courtesies, maybe drill, do those with military
experience bring to the table that the average reasonably-educated adult professional doesn't also bring that makes them uniquely
qualified as the "saviors of CAP" they are purported to be?

[SarDragon]

For those inclined to disagree, what, specifically, beyond uniform wear and courtesies, maybe drill, do those with military
experience bring to the table that the average reasonably-educated adult professional doesn't also bring that makes them uniquely
qualified as the "saviors of CAP" they are purported to be?

Not necessarily disagreeing, since I'm on the "not so fast" bandwagon, I'll answer the basic Q.

These former military folks have varying levels of experience at:
The military hierarchy style in general, including chain-of-command.
Leading and managing people and resources according to that style.

I didn't see nearly as much of that when I was in a civilian job, even when 2/3 of the company was staffed with ex-military people.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The problem is, I can't just force my AEO to keep his job if he doesn't want to anymore.

[Eclipse]

For those inclined to disagree, what, specifically, beyond uniform wear and courtesies, maybe drill, do those with military
experience bring to the table that the average reasonably-educated adult professional doesn't also bring that makes them uniquely
qualified as the "saviors of CAP" they are purported to be?

Not necessarily disagreeing, since I'm on the "not so fast" bandwagon, I'll answer the basic Q.

These former military folks have varying levels of experience at:
The military hierarchy style in general, including chain-of-command.
Leading and managing people and resources according to that style.

I didn't see nearly as much of that when I was in a civilian job, even when 2/3 of the company was staffed with ex-military people.

I would say that's the general idea, but in response to that, we all know CAP ignores the chain probably twice
as much as it adheres to it, and these days everybody feels "empowered" and "equal", and that's where some
of the challenges come in for those expecting CAP to semi-replicate their military experience.

No ability to compel.

Rarely are there ramifications for failure to perform, failure to participate, or even negligence.

Little to no input or management from higher HQ (unless there's poop to run down the hill).

And everyone is self-motivated and self-actualized.

As I've said a million times, the single biggest problem is the utter lack of baseline training and expectations.
Sure, there are lax units in the military, people in the same office group ignore courtesies, yada, yada, but
ultimately, on the mean, everyone doing a given job has had the same BMT, Tech Schools, or advanced training,
so everyone has a baseline to fallback on.

That's obviously not the case in CAP, even a little.  Heck, CAP doesn't even require Level 1 to fly an airplane,
and the "level" of "1" varies from "did you watch the video" to "seniors learning drill".

Some Maj with a career comes in, sees a bunch of guys in blue and thinks "well, we all have something in common"..
then...well CAP happens.

[Eclipse]

Separate but related thought.

My buddy was a Loadmaster out of ORD back in the '90s.  His day-to-day experience as a
reservist sounded very much like the day-to-day life of a CAP member.

Though he was enlisted, the rest of the crew were officers and grade wasn't really a "thing"
anyone cared about - everyone had their jobs, did them, and then at night you hit a bar.
People's "real" jobs were anything from cops to warehouse workers and in between - just because
someone pins an oak on your shoulder on the weekends doesn't mean you aren't asking if people
"want fries with that" on Monday.

They lived in flight suits, and like so many others in the USAF, so rarely wore anything but
that or BDUs they usually didn't even have a set of blues that fit.

Etc., etc...

But...

It took him 18 months of BMT, Tech schools & SERE, not to mention months of flying as a trainee
and a couple of deployments before he got to that level, and of course he was always one mishap, one
bad OPR, or one base closure form getting RIF'ed.

He also, of course, signed the check that the POTUS can cash at any time, changing his life, or
possibly ending it for the cause.

In CAP we hand people the keys to the kingdom before they are even background-checked, and appoint unit CCs
with zero leadership experience or any prior anything related, and the only check people write is the literal
one at membership time each year.  Commitment? "Dude, there's on game on Sunday. I'll swing by if it's not into OT..."

It's a wonder anyone with prior service even comes back for the second meeting.

[SarDragon]

Heck, CAP doesn't even require Level 1 to fly an airplane, and the "level" of "1" varies from "did you watch the video" to "seniors learning drill".

Well, this is kind of obscure, but...

CHAPTER 3 - LEVEL I, ORIENTATION
3-1. Participation. CAP requires senior members to complete Level I training prior to receiving any assigned duty position in the unit, directly supervising cadets on their own, being allowed to wear the Air Force-style CAP uniform, becoming eligible for promotion, or enrolling in AU A4/6 courses.

It isn't much, and seems incomplete, but it looks like the basic intent is for all SMs to complete Level I prior to participating in anything else.

[Eclipse]

CHAPTER 3 - LEVEL I, ORIENTATION
3-1. Participation. CAP requires senior members to complete Level I training prior to receiving any assigned duty position in the unit, directly supervising cadets on their own, being allowed to wear the Air Force-style CAP uniform, becoming eligible for promotion, or enrolling in AU A4/6 courses.

It isn't much, and seems incomplete, but it looks like the basic intent is for all SMs to complete Level I prior to participating in anything else.

I agree, however NHQ and the Ops Directorate do not.

I also made the point that it was physically impossible to be the POC of an aircraft with cadets on board and not be "directly supervising cadets on their own",
but was told that to encourage pilot retention, the situation would remain as is.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Separate but related thought.

My buddy was a Loadmaster out of ORD back in the '90s.  His day-to-day experience as a
reservist sounded very much like the day-to-day life of a CAP member.

Though he was enlisted, the rest of the crew were officers and grade wasn't really a "thing"
anyone cared about - everyone had their jobs, did them, and then at night you hit a bar.
People's "real" jobs were anything from cops to warehouse workers and in between - just because
someone pins an oak on your shoulder on the weekends doesn't mean you aren't asking if people
"want fries with that" on Monday.

They lived in flight suits, and like so many others in the USAF, so rarely wore anything but
that or BDUs they usually didn't even have a set of blues that fit.

Etc., etc...

But...

It took him 18 months of BMT, Tech schools & SERE, not to mention months of flying as a trainee
and a couple of deployments before he got to that level, and of course he was always one mishap, one
bad OPR, or one base closure form getting RIF'ed.

He also, of course, signed the check that the POTUS can cash at any time, changing his life, or
possibly ending it for the cause.

In CAP we hand people the keys to the kingdom before they are even background-checked, and appoint unit CCs
with zero leadership experience or any prior anything related, and the only check people write is the literal
one at membership time each year.  Commitment? "Dude, there's on game on Sunday. I'll swing by if it's not into OT..."

It's a wonder anyone with prior service even comes back for the second meeting.

That's strong, Eclipse. Strong.

But it's also true. We indeed hand units to new commanders with bupkus for leadership or management ability. They're just ambulatory and willing, many times.

We don't train and cultivate adult leaders. Many times, we just develop political hacks who can schmooze and make the numbers look decent.

I took Squadron Officer School instead of RSC because I knew darned well I'd learn something at SOS. After nine years as a cadet and (at the time) almost 20 as a s'member, there was nothing new CAP could teach me about leadership. And after taking SOS, I tell anyone who'll listen that the things you get in SOS will mean more than you'd ever get in a week of RSC. Many of the lessons you get in SOS should be given as part of CAP's Level I, and the rest should be in the first part of Level II.

A butterbar shouldn't be issued just because someone passed an FBI background check and cleared Level I, which is a cakewalk for all but the eunuchs among us, and we probably help the eunuchs too much. Heck, the other day, I realized a mouthbreather somehow made major here in the Tampa Bay area, and I once saw the guy with my own two eyes FAIL AN OPEN-BOOK ICS 400 TEST. You heard me — THIS GUY COULDN'T PASS AN OPEN-BOOK TEST AND SOMEHOW WAS PROMOTED TO MAJOR IN FLORIDA WING!

So how do people get promoted, again?

[BHartman007]

...He's supposed to be semi-active out in Colorado or something, waiting for another chance to go up.

He's in Houston, and very active. Should be going up in the next couple of years.

Yeah, good guy, remembered fondly here in ATL. He participated in the KSC/CCAFS cadet special activity this summer - he had s'mores on the beach Friday night with the cadets.  My oldest son was one of the cadet participants - he is jazzed about following me into a career in aerospace, returned to school with a vengeance, and was inducted into NHS today. Imagine, if you were a science/technology minded cadet, if a former cadet now turned astronaut showed up to have snacks on the beach with you after a week of motivation to study hard, stay on school, challenge the science and math, and be a productive citizen and taxpayer.

Nice, huh?

I honestly believe that former cadets have an inherent mission to give something back to those younger brothers and sisters behind us; COL Boe is right up there doing that. Semper Vigilans.


V/R
Spam

I didn't know he did that, pretty cool. He has some amazing stories. Giving back to the program is the whole reason he's still in. Neither of his kids are active anymore (only one is even a member), but he's still there every week that he's not out NASAing somewhere. I still can't get him to take me up in a jet, though. For some reason he doesn't think NASA will see joyriding as a good use of a T38. I say if he's going to fly anyway, and the back seat will just be empty...

[Alaric]

Separate but related thought.

My buddy was a Loadmaster out of ORD back in the '90s.  His day-to-day experience as a
reservist sounded very much like the day-to-day life of a CAP member.

Though he was enlisted, the rest of the crew were officers and grade wasn't really a "thing"
anyone cared about - everyone had their jobs, did them, and then at night you hit a bar.
People's "real" jobs were anything from cops to warehouse workers and in between - just because
someone pins an oak on your shoulder on the weekends doesn't mean you aren't asking if people
"want fries with that" on Monday.

They lived in flight suits, and like so many others in the USAF, so rarely wore anything but
that or BDUs they usually didn't even have a set of blues that fit.

Etc., etc...

But...

It took him 18 months of BMT, Tech schools & SERE, not to mention months of flying as a trainee
and a couple of deployments before he got to that level, and of course he was always one mishap, one
bad OPR, or one base closure form getting RIF'ed.

He also, of course, signed the check that the POTUS can cash at any time, changing his life, or
possibly ending it for the cause.

In CAP we hand people the keys to the kingdom before they are even background-checked, and appoint unit CCs
with zero leadership experience or any prior anything related, and the only check people write is the literal
one at membership time each year.  Commitment? "Dude, there's on game on Sunday. I'll swing by if it's not into OT..."

It's a wonder anyone with prior service even comes back for the second meeting.

That's strong, Eclipse. Strong.

But it's also true. We indeed hand units to new commanders with bupkus for leadership or management ability. They're just ambulatory and willing, many times.

We don't train and cultivate adult leaders. Many times, we just develop political hacks who can schmooze and make the numbers look decent.

I took Squadron Officer School instead of RSC because I knew darned well I'd learn something at SOS. After nine years as a cadet and (at the time) almost 20 as a s'member, there was nothing new CAP could teach me about leadership. And after taking SOS, I tell anyone who'll listen that the things you get in SOS will mean more than you'd ever get in a week of RSC. Many of the lessons you get in SOS should be given as part of CAP's Level I, and the rest should be in the first part of Level II.

A butterbar shouldn't be issued just because someone passed an FBI background check and cleared Level I, which is a cakewalk for all but the eunuchs among us, and we probably help the eunuchs too much. Heck, the other day, I realized a mouthbreather somehow made major here in the Tampa Bay area, and I once saw the guy with my own two eyes FAIL AN OPEN-BOOK ICS 400 TEST. You heard me — THIS GUY COULDN'T PASS AN OPEN-BOOK TEST AND SOMEHOW WAS PROMOTED TO MAJOR IN FLORIDA WING!

So how do people get promoted, again?

If you are using the ability to pass an open book test as a measure of intelligence, I feel for you.  I am a licensed customs broker, which means that I am allowed to sign on behalf of another on the import of goods into the US.  Its a license issued by the Department of Homeland Security, it is an open book test but on average the pass rate is between 5 and 15%.