Minimum Age Increase

[Archer]

I remember so distinctly seeing this topic covered vehemently previously, but I've been hammering away at the search function with every alternate word combo--thesaurus in hand--and I can't find it. So I made this. If anyone can link me the droidsthread I am looking for, that would be great. If not, I guess it doesn'tshouldn't hurt to discuss it again; I want to hear everyone's thoughts on increasing the minimum age for cadets.

[lordmonar]

NO.  I want to lower them to 11 or 10 and finished with the fifth grade.

[Archer]

Are you trolling me, Master Sergeant? -_-

[NIN]

Are you trolling me, Master Sergeant? -_-

No, I think he's serious.

Wait, no, I know he's serious.

[lordmonar]

Are you trolling me, Master Sergeant? -_-

Why would I do that?

My reasoning is that we are competing against the BSA for our target audience.  We should match up our recruiting with theirs.
10 and the fifth grade (or at least 11 and the 6th grade) allows us to recruit by school year......we hit the schools in April-May, induct them in in June, get them to encampment that summer.

What are your reasoning for raising the age?  What age would you put it at?  What are the consequences of doing so?

[PA Guy]

I have had terrible luck with 11-12 year olds at encampment.  We send some home but the bigger problem is that they eat up huge amounts of TAC/staff time to the point it is a detriment to the older cadets.

In my wing the parents of every 12 y/o applicant gets a call from the Commandant of Cadets/Encampment Commander explaining what encampment is like and what the expectations are and let the parents make the decision. About half decide to wait another yr.

[lordmonar]

I have had terrible luck with 11-12 year olds at encampment.  We send some home but the bigger problem is that they eat up huge amounts of TAC/staff time to the point it is a detriment to the older cadets.

In my wing the parents of every 12 y/o applicant gets a call from the Commandant of Cadets/Encampment Commander explaining what encampment is like and what the expectations are and let the parents make the decision. About half decide to wait another yr.

That means your encampment is wrong........sorry for being so blunt....but that's the truth.
Our age limit of 12 has been in place for many years.......and if our encampment is too tough then we need to change it.

[Archer]

What are your reasoning for raising the age?  What age would you put it at?  What are the consequences of doing so?

I'm not explicitly for raising, lowering, or leaving it as it is yet; that's why I want to see everyone's viewpoints.

[PA Guy]

I have had terrible luck with 11-12 year olds at encampment.  We send some home but the bigger problem is that they eat up huge amounts of TAC/staff time to the point it is a detriment to the older cadets.

In my wing the parents of every 12 y/o applicant gets a call from the Commandant of Cadets/Encampment Commander explaining what encampment is like and what the expectations are and let the parents make the decision. About half decide to wait another yr.

That means your encampment is wrong........sorry for being so blunt....but that's the truth.
Our age limit of 12 has been in place for many years.......and if our encampment is too tough then we need to change it.

You know what they say about opinions, everybody has one.  Is your opinion based on encampment experience? Have you been to an encampment in recent memory? Sorry for being so blunt.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Other threads have discussed the squadron commanders should not promote if the cadet is not ready. They should not sign off on CAPF 31s for cadets (regardless of age) to go to encampment if they are not ready. The encampment staff should not have to have that conversation.

Thinking outside the box could we set the minimum age for joining to 11 (or 10) and for attending encampment at 12 (subject to some sort of waiver process based on grade and or other criteria, sign offs) The paradigm for 10 or 11 year old cadets would be prove to us you should be allowed to go.

As to my qualifications to have an opinion, see my signature block. One was as a cadet and one was as the Encampment Commander.

[PA Guy]

Other threads have discussed the squadron commanders should not promote if the cadet is not ready. They should not sign off on CAPF 31s for cadets (regardless of age) to go to encampment if they are not ready. The encampment staff should not have to have that conversation.

In my wing one of the biggest problems are sqdn commanders sending cadets to encampment who are unprepared or have probs we should know about.  A few examples this yr included a cadet with Aspergers that the sqdn CC knew about and the mother omitted from the application. The sqdn CC didn't think we needed to know that. In spite of frequent notices sqdn CCs allowed cadets to show up with new boots, some bought them on their way to encampment. Cadets that had no clue how to wear a uniform because they said they had worn it only once before.  Cadets who clearly couldn't meet the Curry PT or drill standard. Cadets that had special dietary requirements we didn't know about and the list goes on.

[coudano]

First of all, I think it is wrong to say we are in 'competition' with boy scouts.
BSA and CAP are separate and distinct niche markets.  It is not like we are losing recruits we would otherwise have, to them.
If anything, in my experience, we pick up a lot of ex boy scouts who are ready for something a little more regimented (when they get 'too old' for scouts).  And of course there are plenty of teens who do both.

The younger (smaller) the cadets are, it becomes very difficult to find them spec uniforms.

I have seen some maturity issues with extremely young cadets, both at encampment and at squadron.  Of course there have been others who have handled themselves well.  On the whole I'd say that is about a coin toss.

My target age for an ideal recruit is actually right at about the 13th birthday (but I don't need to change CAP's regs to pursue that general policy)

[lordmonar]

I have had terrible luck with 11-12 year olds at encampment.  We send some home but the bigger problem is that they eat up huge amounts of TAC/staff time to the point it is a detriment to the older cadets.

In my wing the parents of every 12 y/o applicant gets a call from the Commandant of Cadets/Encampment Commander explaining what encampment is like and what the expectations are and let the parents make the decision. About half decide to wait another yr.

That means your encampment is wrong........sorry for being so blunt....but that's the truth.
Our age limit of 12 has been in place for many years.......and if our encampment is too tough then we need to change it.

You know what they say about opinions, everybody has one.  Is your opinion based on encampment experience? Have you been to an encampment in recent memory? Sorry for being so blunt.

I put one on by my self a few years ago....but that is besides the point.  OUR target audience is youth 12-20.   If we are having trouble with 12 year olds at encampment.....then we either need to a) change encampment, b) change the time frame of when you go to encampment (which by the way...would change the encampment) c) change our entry age for CAP.

And yes I know what they say about opinions.....but I also know what the stated goals from National about CP are.  We need to get our cadets to encampment ASAP.  That comes directly from Ned Lee...when he was the volunteer CP Director and Curt.

So....our age limit is 12....and we need to get them to encampment.....ergo by using worst case planning we need to target our encampments to 12 year olds.

[lordmonar]

Other threads have discussed the squadron commanders should not promote if the cadet is not ready. They should not sign off on CAPF 31s for cadets (regardless of age) to go to encampment if they are not ready. The encampment staff should not have to have that conversation.

Okay....for just 2 seconds I will agree with your.  What is "ready" for encampment?  If I were a squadron CC....where do I find out those standards for "ready" for encampment?   The only criteria I see is "completed the Curry Achievement".

Again....I propose that we have a disconnect about what we "think" encampments should be and what our written CP program is telling our CP officers.

Thinking outside the box could we set the minimum age for joining to 11 (or 10) and for attending encampment at 12 (subject to some sort of waiver process based on grade and or other criteria, sign offs) The paradigm for 10 or 11 year old cadets would be prove to us you should be allowed to go.

As to my qualifications to have an opinion, see my signature block. One was as a cadet and one was as the Encampment Commander.

So it the "ready for encampment just age....or it there other criteria you are thinking about?  I ask this because you mention waivers already.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I was essentially brainstorming. However the last sentence "The paradigm for 10 or 11 year old cadets would be prove to us you should be allowed to go." I think sums up the idea. If we let the 10 to 11 year old cadets join we change the thought from "they (10 to 11) should go to encampment immediately" to  "should they go to encampment?".

As far as standards for ready for encampment, I do agree there should be additional criteria. Is the Curry even enough? However, I think there is a subjective part of "are they ready".

[PA Guy]

A cadet is ready to attend encampment  on passing and demonstrating the skills required for  the Curry, not having it pencil whipped by a well meaning senior.  The sqdn CC must also decide if the cadet has the maturity to do well being away from home and functioning in a group environment with other cadets from meals to showers. Encampments expect cadets show up with a skill set established by passing the Curry.  They are expected to be mature enough to function without having to see the chaplain or TAC mult times a day or call home every day and the sqdn commander makes that decision when they sign the Form 31. This is no different than holding someone back on a review board.  Just as there are cadets that aren't ready to promote there are cadets that aren't ready to attend encampment. That is why my wing calls the parents of 11-12 year olds, based on past performance of many sqdn CCs who don't want to be the bad guy and prefer to make the encampment the  bad guy. 

Sorry, I forgot to add this reference:  CAPP 52-24 Part 1-1 para. f

Squadron commanders are encouraged to discuss the encampment environment with parents of their
cadets, especially parents of cadets under age 14. It is conceivable that some of the youngest and newest CAP
cadets will be best served if they attend encampment during their second cycle of eligibility.

[lordmonar]

But there's the crux......subjective or not.....you have to have some guidance to the squadrons....or you can't use the "I hate it when they send us kids who are not ready" argument.

The rest is just quality control in the CP in general not just as it applies to encampment.

On thing I have notices is that even though we changed the drill requirements for Curry.....Encampments still expect cadets to know a lot more drill then a Curry cadet may know.

[PA Guy]

But there's the crux......subjective or not.....you have to have some guidance to the squadrons....or you can't use the "I hate it when they send us kids who are not ready" argument.

The rest is just quality control in the CP in general not just as it applies to encampment.

On thing I have notices is that even though we changed the drill requirements for Curry.....Encampments still expect cadets to know a lot more drill then a Curry cadet may know.

I posted a reference to CAPP 52-24 that gives guidance to sqdn CCs. In my AOR sqdn CCs are briefed re: encampment expectations at least twice more during the yr.  Expectations are also outlined in CAPR 52-16 chap 9.

My wings encampment expects a cadet to be proficient in the drill standards required for the Curry. That is our starting point for teaching drill and then adding to that. In the first to second day a diagnostic drill assessment is done and then move on.  The encampment shouldn't need to start teaching such things as how to salute, facing movement or saluting.

[lordmonar]

PA Guy,

52-16 Chap 9 does not tell a squadron commander what the expect performance level of the attendee is beyond "Curry Achievement".

And neither does the Draft 52-24.

[ZigZag911]

Not sure I'm eager to have 10 year olds in CAP, but I suppose we could make it work...if we do go that route, I'd like to see requirements for encampment raised to 12 or 13 years old, with prior completion of Wright award.

[Eclipse]

I'd have no issue with a 12 or 5th grade, the problem is the homeschoolers who somehow are "different" in the way the grades work
and that's where we used to wind up with the most issues. 

Perhaps a hard 12 for homeschoolers and "12 or 5th" for those enrolled in normal schools, but good luck with the
helicopters there.

[Peeka]

I'd have no issue with a 12 or 5th grade, the problem is the homeschoolers who somehow are "different" in the way the grades work
and that's where we used to wind up with the most issues.

...you mean having a 10 year old kid who is in 7th grade?

[Eclipse]

I'd have no issue with a 12 or 5th grade, the problem is the homeschoolers who somehow are "different" in the way the grades work
and that's where we used to wind up with the most issues.

...you mean having a 10 year old kid who is 7th grade?

Yes.

[Archer]

We've touched on encampments, now let's hear some thoughts on having 12 year olds in other facets of CAP.

[Eclipse]

We've touched on encampments, now let's hear some thoughts on having 12 year olds in other facets of CAP.

OK Mr. Cronkite, is there a question here?

12 year olds are currently allowed to join, in most cases they are prepared for the expectations.  Less then 12 generally aren't.
By 13, especially with a year of CAP behind them there are rarely issues with age, however on the flipside,
we also get older kids who join at 14-15 and are disciplinary issues because they have never been held to the structure CAP
expects.

10 is far too young, 11 is iffy.  11.5 is probably OK in most cases, as is 12.

[Archer]

May I ask why you believe what you do about those particular ages?





And that's the way it is.

[NIN]

Honestly, I think 12 is just about right.

My son just turned 12. He's disillusioned with Scouting (as am I), and I rejoined CAP this past spring so that I could help square away the squadron for his arrival if he decides in the fall to join.

Have I seen 12 year olds cause problems at encampments?

Yep.

Have I see 15 year olds have issues at encampments?

Yep.

One of the bigger arguments against broadening the age range is the appropriateness of the program for younger cadets.

Our training materials are aimed at the 13-17 year old comprehension level  (more or less).

Our CPP speaks about age-separation, and you only have so much ability to "divide" your barracks.

Not specifically encampment related, I still think you have a more difficult time with 10 year olds. They've still not really "crossed that threshold".

I joined at 14. Wish I'd joined earlier.  But could I have handled encampment at 12? Probably not.

[lordmonar]

I'd have no issue with a 12 or 5th grade, the problem is the homeschoolers who somehow are "different" in the way the grades work
and that's where we used to wind up with the most issues.

...you mean having a 10 year old kid who is 7th grade?

Yes.

Don't matter....it would 12 or 11 and in the 7th grade
So the youngest we would ever get would be 11.....even if he was Doogie Howser and working on his Phd.

The idea is to be recruiting the typical "7th grader" who is normally 12....but some of their peers may be 11 or so...depending on where they hit the cut date or if they were advanced a year.   Allowing for the "11 and" allows you to recruit all of them at once instead of telling little Dooogie.....you need to see us in January when you turn 12.

I myself was in this situation.  I started a year early because I started school overseas, my birthday is November 1, so I should have started school at in 1971...instead I started I started in 70.

I  know that this is not really a big problem....but I do think it could streamline and improve our recruiting efforts by basing them on school year age groups instead of just age.

[CAPAPRN]

By the time my son was 13 he was over 6 foot tall, 180 pds and almost seemed out of place as a new cadet. While I am not sure about lowering the age to join, I am certainly against raising it. You aren't just "competing" with BSA (and by the way, we also have female cadets) you are "competing" with every sport, every after school activity, private club teams etc for a commitment. There is a point in a child's life when they decide to make a commitment to one or more things. It has been my experience that this has happened by age 13.  And yes, donations of food and very large/long shoes, boots and pants are always appreciated.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I joined 2 months after 13. CAP became my only activity.

[RiverAux]

While certainly not comparable to being in CAP, I wonder if there is anyone that has worked with the CAP program for kids younger than cadet age that has some thoughts on younger cadets? 

[PA Guy]

I would be comfortable with a hard 12 or in my perfect world a hard 13.  Ten or eleven is just too early for them to grasp the academics, drill, socialization and regimentation required in the cadet program.

[lordmonar]

I would be comfortable with a hard 12 or in my perfect world a hard 13.  Ten or eleven is just too early for them to grasp the academics, drill, socialization and regimentation required in the cadet program.

If we moved it to a hard 13.....you would loose them to school, sport.  Also you will see a dramatic drop in our already dismal numbers.

[Eclipse]

The typical 7th grader is 13 not twelve.  6th grade is generally for 12 year olds unless you're red shirted on purpose or because of a late birthday.

[PHall]

I would be comfortable with a hard 12 or in my perfect world a hard 13.  Ten or eleven is just too early for them to grasp the academics, drill, socialization and regimentation required in the cadet program.

If we moved it to a hard 13.....you would loose them to school, sport.  Also you will see a dramatic drop in our already dismal numbers.

The minimum age was 13 for a large number of years. As in from the 1950's through 2000 or so.

Didn't seem to hurt us....

[BillB]

When I joined CAP as a cadet, the minimum age was 14. But the Wing Commander had the authority to waive that if the prospective cadet requested it. I applied for membership at age 12 with a birthday a month away. And the Wing CC approved my membership.

[jimmydeanno]

I would be comfortable with a hard 12 or in my perfect world a hard 13.  Ten or eleven is just too early for them to grasp the academics, drill, socialization and regimentation required in the cadet program.

If we moved it to a hard 13.....you would loose them to school, sport.  Also you will see a dramatic drop in our already dismal numbers.

The minimum age was 13 for a large number of years. As in from the 1950's through 2000 or so.

Didn't seem to hurt us....

When I joined in '97, it was 12 or in the 6th grade.  I was 15 at the time, so it didn't matter.  However it certainly lowered the potential age to about 10, if there was a homeschool kid in
6th grade.  Youngest I saw join was 11.

[SarDragon]

The typical 7th grader is 13 not twelve.  6th grade is generally for 12 year olds unless you're red shirted on purpose or because of a late birthday.

Maybe in your part of the world. I started 7th grade at 11, and finished at 12, having started a year early. That would make the "normal" start at 12, and finish at 12 or 13, depending on when the birthday is. (Mine is in Feb.)

[lordmonar]

I would be comfortable with a hard 12 or in my perfect world a hard 13.  Ten or eleven is just too early for them to grasp the academics, drill, socialization and regimentation required in the cadet program.

If we moved it to a hard 13.....you would loose them to school, sport.  Also you will see a dramatic drop in our already dismal numbers.

The minimum age was 13 for a large number of years. As in from the 1950's through 2000 or so.

Didn't seem to hurt us....

When I joined in '97, it was 12 or in the 6th grade.  I was 15 at the time, so it didn't matter.  However it certainly lowered the potential age to about 10, if there was a homeschool kid in
6th grade.  Youngest I saw join was 11.

Ah...yes....there 12 or the 6th grade era....and IIRC the youngest was something like 10.....IIRC we had a 13 year old Spaatz cadet...which generated a lot of angsts on the CP and CT.

[Eclipse]

The typical 7th grader is 13 not twelve.  6th grade is generally for 12 year olds unless you're red shirted on purpose or because of a late birthday.

Maybe in your part of the world. I started 7th grade at 11, and finished at 12, having started a year early. That would make the "normal" start at 12, and finish at 12 or 13, depending on when the birthday is. (Mine is in Feb.)

You said it yourself, you started a year early.  Not something easily accomplished any more in the public school system.  Depending on your
kid's birthday, you can red shirt them, but few, if any, schools are going to accept a kid early.

I understand the reasoning behind an "#" or "Grade" system, but the simple fact is that much of a cadet's success is dependent on their maturity level
and the first 3 months of their membership.  Drop them in too early and you lose them forever, not to mention you've also impacted the experience
of the other cadets who have to deal with a kid who isn't ready.

I don't know if it's just the kids running on my lawn, but it seems to me that while the media and marketing machine are trying to
make kids feel more mature then they are, in reality they are actually less mature and capable of independence at adolescence then they were
20-30 years ago (i.e. being "worldly" at 8 doesn't mean you are "mature").

I've met a few surprises - the youngest / smallest cadet who struggles but sticks it out and becomes a top-tier leader, but for every one of those,
there are 5 that join too soon and quit because they are told to stand quietly for 10 minutes (or more likely have to figure out where to stand without
mom holding their hand).

[Cap'n]

Maybe in your part of the world. I started 7th grade at 11, and finished at 12, having started a year early. That would make the "normal" start at 12, and finish at 12 or 13, depending on when the birthday is. (Mine is in Feb.)

I also finished 7th Grade at the age of 12, and my birthday is the last day in April. I didn't skip a grade, but I've noticed I'm one of the youngest kids in my class- most of them are a year older then me.

Generally you will have 13, and sometimes even 14 year olds by 8th grade.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I came to the US 3 months shy of 12. In Latvia that meant I was in the 5th grade, but due to age I was moved to the 6th grade here.

So I finished 6th grade at 12, started 7th, and finished 7th at 13. B-day in February.

[Jaison009]

I joined at 12 in Sept of 1996 (turned 13 a few months later in Nov) starting 6th grade after becoming bored with scouting. Many of the cadets were in the same age range and classmates in the middle school on base at Fort Campbell, KY so it worked out well for me. I think the age was right at where it should be.

[UH60guy]

Just thought I'd throw a quote from the regs into consideration- Remember what CAPR 52-16 has to say on the matter?

Challenge. CAP challenges youth. It might be the physical challenge of conquering an obstacle course, an academic challenge to master aerospace and leadership concepts, a moral challenge to live the Core Values or a personal challenge to know oneself better and gain self-confidence. Because of these challenges, the Cadet Program is intended for young adults, not children. Every activity should challenge cadets in one way or another.
(Emphasis mine)

Now it may be up to others better versed in child psychology, those that have been around cadet programs for longer than my measily six months, or have children of their own- BUT- To me personally, 12 seems to be a pretty good starting place for differentiating a "young adult" from a child. Any younger and we're not getting much out of or really driving home the Challenge and Opportunity to Lead themes, and as others said, any older and we lose 'em to sports or other activities.

[AngelWings]

Throwing in my two cents, I think it should be based on age and maturity. There's many 12 year old's who are kids, and some 12 year old's who are young adults. Same for anyone else, even those in their 40's and up. But the idea of someone who is 11 or 10 being in the cadet programs is almost appalling.

Most 10 and 11 year old's don't have the mental capacity to participate effectively in an organization like Civil Air Patrol. We're the not Boy scouts, we're not the Young Marines. We're the US Air Force Auxiliary

There is no problem with being 12 and immature, you're 12. But there's a problem when you're forcing mature cadets to deal with immature newbies, or anyone. It detracts from the esprit de corps, the training, the experience, and the ability to move forward. Teenage years are short, and precious. I've learned that one first hand.

Why would a sane teenager want to be coupled with someone who is a child, which'd handicap the squadron from training my mentally demanding and mature subjects. We don't have a structure that is set up to deal with training two different age groups. If we did, than it'd be an entirely different story for CAP. If we could train children and let them become young adults, we'd be perfectly fine. We do not however.

Our best bet for lowering the age is to make a subgroup in CAP specifically geared towards children, not young adults. Otherwise it's unfair to all of the mature people in CAP.

[jimmydeanno]

Why would a sane teenager want to be coupled with someone who is a child, which'd handicap the squadron from training my mentally demanding and mature subjects.

Part of the cadet program is that those who are further in the program teach those below them.  Theoretically, a 19-year-old cadet would be responsible for helping train a 12-year-old cadet.  Also, they wouldn't be learning the same things, since the 19-year-old would be learning about strategic leadership, while the 12-year-old would be learning about personal leadership.

In real life, what 19-year-old (teenager) would want to hang out with a 13-year-old (teenager)? 

There is nothing wrong with having an immature airman.  They're young, they're airmen.  Having an immature 19-year-old C/Lt Col on the other hand...

Sometimes I think that we expect our youngest and newest cadets to behave and have the skill levels that our older and experienced cadets do.  I'm sure that if some of our experienced cadets looked at themselves when they first joined, they probably wouldn't want them in the unit either.

[Peeka]

Most 10 and 11 year old's don't have the mental capacity to participate effectively in an organization like Civil Air Patrol. We're [not] the Boy scouts, we're not the Young Marines. We're the US Air Force Auxiliary

FTFY

[AngelWings]

Why would a sane teenager want to be coupled with someone who is a child, which'd handicap the squadron from training my mentally demanding and mature subjects.

Part of the cadet program is that those who are further in the program teach those below them.  Theoretically, a 19-year-old cadet would be responsible for helping train a 12-year-old cadet.  Also, they wouldn't be learning the same things, since the 19-year-old would be learning about strategic leadership, while the 12-year-old would be learning about personal leadership.

In real life, what 19-year-old (teenager) would want to hang out with a 13-year-old (teenager)? 

There is nothing wrong with having an immature airman.  They're young, they're airmen.  Having an immature 19-year-old C/Lt Col on the other hand...

Sometimes I think that we expect our youngest and newest cadets to behave and have the skill levels that our older and experienced cadets do.  I'm sure that if some of our experienced cadets looked at themselves when they first joined, they probably wouldn't want them in the unit either.

Very valid points. I see what you're saying, and agree to an extent. 

My point is that it is unfair to tailor CAP as a whole to be geared towards the younger audience, and it is unfair to have the younger audience be forced to learn what a 18-21 year old might be learning.

I'd love to see a program within CAP for younger kids. Almost like a CAP cadet probationary program or something, where they get taught the basics and are weeded out so kids who are not on par can be asked to come back in a year and kids who are can be put into a regular squadron flight and become young adults. Basically, a revision of what we already have for training flight programs.

[MIKE]

The Sea Cadets have age separated programs IIRC.

[AngelWings]

The Sea Cadets have age separated programs IIRC.

That they do! Their model would be a decent model to replicate until we find something that needs tweaking.

[Eclipse]

My point is that it is unfair to tailor CAP as a whole to be geared towards the younger audience, and it is unfair to have the younger audience be forced to learn what a 18-21 year old might be learning.

12 year olds are not expected to function at the level of 19 year olds.   As mentioned above, the older cadets are expected to mentor and lead the younger ones.
A lot of CAP's issues with retention are because that paradigm breaks down  older cadets "git there's" and then scram.

It's 3-5 years before a 12 year old cadet is expected to function at an advanced (Phase IV) level, and by then they should be pretty ready.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Pass probation, get A1C at 12?

[AngelWings]

My point is that it is unfair to tailor CAP as a whole to be geared towards the younger audience, and it is unfair to have the younger audience be forced to learn what a 18-21 year old might be learning.

12 year olds are not expected to function at the level of 19 year olds.   As mentioned above, the older cadets are expected to mentor and lead the younger ones.
A lot of CAP's issues with retention are because that paradigm breaks down  older cadets "git there's" and then scram.

It's 3-5 years before a 12 year old cadet is expected to function at an advanced (Phase IV) level, and by then they should be pretty ready.

A valid point, but what I've noticed at least at my squadron is that there's topics that some 12 year old's can't really grasp, maturity is an issue, and advancement is an issue.

There is one 12 year old who is mature enough to pass muster and advance himself, but there's two others who are really disappointing in terms of attitude. The best we can do is say knock it off, send them to the "back room" for disciplinary action, and let them come back. They're not getting it however, and I'm afraid it is just the mentality of most 12 year old's. In other words, I am afraid they're the standard, not the exception.

Pass probation, get A1C at 12?

Nah, they just get a cookie and a cool pin to wear on their TABU's.

[lordmonar]

One wonders what you are teaching your 12 year olds at your squadron?

I got 50+ cadets in my squadron....40% of them are 12 years old.....got no problem with any of them grasping the materials that 52-16 calls for us to teach them.

My point is that......sometimes we forget that we tailor the program to the cadet.....not the other way around.

I certainly don't tailor the program to my 18-20 year olds.....I only have a handful of them.  I tailor it to my target audience.  Young adults.


My suggest that we lower our recruitment age to match that of the BSA is so that we can better compete with them.

The point that you bring up is that there is a disconnect between the CP as written and as it is executed out in the field.

[AngelWings]

One wonders what you are teaching your 12 year olds at your squadron?

I got 50+ cadets in my squadron....40% of them are 12 years old.....got no problem with any of them grasping the materials that 52-16 calls for us to teach them.

My point is that......sometimes we forget that we tailor the program to the cadet.....not the other way around.

I certainly don't tailor the program to my 18-20 year olds.....I only have a handful of them.  I tailor it to my target audience.  Young adults.


My suggest that we lower our recruitment age to match that of the BSA is so that we can better compete with them.

The point that you bring up is that there is a disconnect between the CP as written and as it is executed out in the field.

Emphasis mine. Another very valid point. Sometimes it is easy to get carried away going 100% to the book versus getting people to understand what we're trying to teach. I've done that a few times before. Thanks for bringing that up actually, that is a very good reminder of what not to do when teaching something.

The main problem is that they don't truly understand the concepts of the Cadet Programs. There's a difference from remembering enough information to answer questions correctly and actually understanding what you're saying. For example, a child may go out and curse because they heard it, but they don't understand what they're saying.

Many cadets noticeably differ from 12-14 to 15-17. 12-14 year old's are young, haven't truly hit the mental puberty of someone older, and are still somewhat innocent. 15-17 year old's start to hit the age where the mentality really becomes different. You've been on the earth just long enough to figure out that your future is important to work on actively, that you need to start becoming more and more responsible, and that you need to really step into high gear to begin becoming an adult. These are the years you're crafting the foundation for your success or lack thereof, in my opinion. A 12 year old who has the same mentality as 14-17 year old is NOT a child, they are another young adult.

An example of what I'm saying is that my squadron did a class on Character Development/Moral Leadership. We were using the example about a squadron that wants to get a building, and how the funds would be appropriated. The example said that the current building is functioning and that the funds would be taken from many programs, including the cadets. When asked about what entails getting a new building, most people's answers were along the lines of "if the current one is falling apart, we'll get one that isn't." Their answers were along the lines of "because it's better!".

Mind you, this isn't an insult to the particular cadets, 12-14 year old's, or anyone else, but it is an example of how our minimum age limit is already barely sufficient to understand what we're teaching.

[NC Hokie]

My suggest that we lower our recruitment age to match that of the BSA is so that we can better compete with them.

You've said this a couple of times, so I'm interested in your answers to a few questions:

1) Why should we want to compete with the BSA?  What would we win?  You're pushing for a pretty radical change to our program, but I really haven't seen any rationale other than, "More cadets!"  More is not always better, especially when you consider the fact that we lose cadets almost as fast as we bring them in.

2) Have you considered the fact than many (most?) of the boys that join BSA have already spent years in the feeder organization known as the Cub Scouts?  How would we compete with that?

3) The whole concept of, "Do X so that we can beat Y," is inherently reactionary.  Wouldn't our time be better spent looking for areas to improve our own program instead of cherry-picking attractive concepts from everyone else?

I'm not dismissing your idea outright, but I'm afraid that it fails to address the REAL issue we face in CAP, which is the revolving door of membership.

I did a simple analysis based on CAP IDs a while back and still cannot believe what I found.  If the current CAP IDs are sequential, then there were 100,000 new members added in the 6 years between the time I joined CAP and the time our squadron's newest member joined (428nnn vs. 528nnn).  In that same time period, CAP has has grown from 56,464 members (2007 Annual Report to Congress) to 60,686 members (current eServices cadet and senior member counts).  That's an increase of little more than 4,000 members, so...where did the rest of those people go?

Recruiting isn't the issue, retention is, and lowering our minimum membership age won't do anything to fix that.

[lordmonar]

Okay.....neither does raising it.

[AngelWings]

Okay.....neither does raising it.

Lower it, make a new program to deal with the younger cadets, and profit.

Keep it the same, no changes, eventually we'll find the problem.

Raise it, lose cadets, do not collect $200.

[Eclipse]

I don't agree that we compete with the BSA - we are a unique organization and have a different demo then the BSA
which has a much more casual and social membership expectation.  At least by design, CAP is much more structured and
career-focused.

Children much younger then 12 are not self-initiating or self-sustaining enough for a program like CAP.  Their attention span
is nearly zero, and even then it is only for loud/shiny things.   They require direct supervision at all times, and are not apt to lead
each other anywhere but the ice cream truck.

That requires an entirely different program and curriculum, not to mention a significantly higher number of adult leaders and
herders.  This is why Cub Scouts have Den Mothers.  They would not be capable of participating in ES, about 1/2 would be
potential liabilities in an aircraft, and you can only make so many paper airplanes before you lose them, as the fundamental forces
of flight in that age range are magic and superpowers.

It's not a space CAP needs to be in.

The argument about 12 or 6th works in a public school paradigm, but breaks down because of homeschoolers, which is why they went back
to a hard 12.  I agree it opens a wider recruiting demo, but not all that wide, especially when you consider how most units and even wings
grind to a halt over summer breaks. 

It would have more merit if we could show that we had mined the hard-12 demo to it's fullest, but we all know that isn't even true a little
bit.  What we need to do it actually start recruiting on a national scale, and making CAP into an organization that has its own inherent gravity and
doesn't have to beg for members or look to demos outside it's core.

[Eclipse]

Okay.....neither does raising it.

Lower it, make a new program to deal with the younger cadets, and profit.

Keep it the same, no changes, eventually we'll find the problem.

Raise it, lose cadets, do not collect $200.

The current paradigm allows for the leadership to be shared between the cadets and the seniors because of the
expectation of the age of cadets.  Unless you have a way to recruit leaders for an entire new program from the ground
up, this will never get out of it's own way, and could have serious negative membership and mission consequences.

[Майор Хаткевич]

NC, I joined May 2003, 359XXX

[Archer]

Our panel has made some great points today(I'm still Mr. Cronkite apparently) and it seems the main issue is the varying maturity of prospective cadets. It seems as though the real solution would be to find a way to measure a prospective cadet's maturity level more accurately than using the expected levels of all "young adults" that have been alive for a similar amount of time or have completed the same level of elementary school.

[NIN]

Our panel has made some great points today(I'm still Mr. Cronkite apparently) and it seems the main issue is the varying maturity of prospective cadets. It seems as though the real solution would be to find a way to measure a prospective cadet's maturity level more accurately than using the expected levels of all "young adults" that have been alive for a similar amount of time or have completed the same level of elementary school.

Yeah, you find the solution to "measuring maturity" and the world will beat a path to your door.