Firearms Training Guidelines

[Captain St. Clair]

Good morning!

Our squadron has been cleared for firearms training and we are planning on doing so in the very near future.  While we have been cleared by Wing, NHQ, etc.  I am still looking for guidance on how to score and award shooting medals.  Additionally, where can I find the shooting medals?  I looked on Vanguard but cannot find them. 

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated!

[Eclipse]

You can't.

It has to be an NRA approved program and instructor, which is the only program that can award medals.

CAP members are not allowed to do this directly.

Search this site in regards to the medals, there is considerable disagreement as to whether the ones currently offered are approved for wear.  They come from the NRA, not CAP or Vanguard.

How did you get "approved" for firearms training without already knowing this, since the Wing CC has to approve it directly and it has to be an NRA or other outside program?

[Captain St. Clair]

It is easy to get "approved" for it is you do the paperwork for the HAA.  The HAA paperwork is submitted to wing for the wing commanders approval, then you must apply to NHQ for the insurance certificate.  You do not have to be an NRA instructor to do this HAA in CAP.  You can also be a military firearms instructor. 

Thanks for your "friendly" reply.  I appreciate the "help".

[Captain St. Clair]

Please consult the HAA guidelines found in CAPR 52-16.  I've done my homework correctly, just trying to solve the mystery of the badge.  If anyone else has information or has badges for sale, please let me know.  I would greatly appreciate it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Uh huh, and Eclipse is still correct.

[The Infamous Meerkat]

Heres the thing, You may be cleared to do firearms training and hold an event, but there are no awards for it. That little bit is left over from way back in the day when the NRA used to award medals for youth shooting, and it hasn't been adjusted out yet. You can conduct all the training you like, I would because shooting is great! Just know that there won't be any awards being issued no matter whether its NRA sanctioned or not, because the same programs that used to award the shooting medals no longer exist (at least to my understanding).

Consider this, I can't even wear my 3rd Award Expert badge from the Marine Corps... they've been moving away from firearms for a long time now.

[The Infamous Meerkat]

Well, I looked on the NRA page and they say they still do it, but I'm not sure what massive hoops you'd have to jump through to get it done...

[Captain St. Clair]

Thanks for the heads up and the information.  I have a good friend that is also an NRA instructor that has agreed to help us out.  We can sanction the match and award the appropriate badges.  Should be a good time.

[Eclipse]

Please consult the HAA guidelines found in CAPR 52-16.  I've done my homework correctly, just trying to solve the mystery of the badge.  If anyone else has information or has badges for sale, please let me know.  I would greatly appreciate it.

Please consult the section of 52-16 in regards to firearms training, specifically.  Firearms training is not an "HAA".

b. Firearm Training. Cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see August 2012 CAPR 900-3 Firearms - Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials 15 Aug 2012. Training must be sponsored and supervised by military personnel qualified as range officers or range safety officers; local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors; or National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association, or Amateur Trap Shooting Association firearms instructors.

CAP members are not allowed to provide the training.

It isn't done at CAP facilities and CAP does not award any badges.

"You" are not allowed to sanction the training or award anything.  This is the coordination of an activity provided
by some other organization, whether it's military, law enforcement, or NRA training.

[a2capt]

..and the current regulation on the badge wear is for a program that the NRA no longer offers, so those badges can be awarded, they are not currently authorized for use on the uniform, until the CAP regulation that covers it is updated to reflect it.

The NRA program changed several years back. There's a lot more details about it in other threads. But suffice to say, every cadet that would have been authorized to wear the award has now aged out of the cadet program. There should not be any of those things visible on uniforms except perhaps on a mannequin in a glass case.  :angel:

[Captain St. Clair]

Thanks for the info.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Please consult the section of 52-16 in regards to firearms training, specifically.  Firearms training is not an "HAA".

b. Firearm Training. Cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see August 2012 CAPR 900-3 Firearms - Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials 15 Aug 2012. Training must be sponsored and supervised by military personnel qualified as range officers or range safety officers; local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors; or National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association, or Amateur Trap Shooting Association firearms instructors.

CAP members are not allowed to provide the training.

It isn't done at CAP facilities and CAP does not award any badges.

"You" are not allowed to sanction the training or award anything.  This is the coordination of an activity provided
by some other organization, whether it's military, law enforcement, or NRA training.

Not sure how you read this to prohibit CAP members with the proper credentials from providing the training. Provided the member was authorized by the facility to provide the training.

[Eclipse]

Please consult the section of 52-16 in regards to firearms training, specifically.  Firearms training is not an "HAA".

b. Firearm Training. Cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see August 2012 CAPR 900-3 Firearms - Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials 15 Aug 2012. Training must be sponsored and supervised by military personnel qualified as range officers or range safety officers; local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors; or National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association, or Amateur Trap Shooting Association firearms instructors.

CAP members are not allowed to provide the training.

It isn't done at CAP facilities and CAP does not award any badges.

"You" are not allowed to sanction the training or award anything.  This is the coordination of an activity provided
by some other organization, whether it's military, law enforcement, or NRA training.

Not sure how you read this to prohibit CAP members with the proper credentials from providing the training. Provided the member was authorized by the facility to provide the training.

They would be providing training in their capacity from that other organization, not as a CAP member.  CAP members are not allowed to provide training
of their own accord or in their capacity as members.

In other words, if you're a dual-hatted member who is also in the military, an LEO, or an NRA instructor, you wear >their< uniform that day.

[bflynn]

Please consult the section of 52-16 in regards to firearms training, specifically.  Firearms training is not an "HAA".

b. Firearm Training. Cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see August 2012 CAPR 900-3 Firearms - Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials 15 Aug 2012. Training must be sponsored and supervised by military personnel qualified as range officers or range safety officers; local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors; or National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association, or Amateur Trap Shooting Association firearms instructors.

CAP members are not allowed to provide the training.

It isn't done at CAP facilities and CAP does not award any badges.

"You" are not allowed to sanction the training or award anything.  This is the coordination of an activity provided
by some other organization, whether it's military, law enforcement, or NRA training.

Not sure how you read this to prohibit CAP members with the proper credentials from providing the training. Provided the member was authorized by the facility to provide the training.

I'm sure it's a Venn issue.  Eclipse simply forgot to include the overlap group where someone is both a CAP member and Military range/range safety officer, LEO qualified firearms instructor or a NRA, NSSA or ATSA instructor.  A generic, run of the mill CAP member cannot otherwise provide the training.  Note that the regulation says the training must be sponsored by a person who is..., not that it must be sponsored by their parent organization.

[Eclipse]

The organization must officially sponsor the training, just as with First Aid.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse-

Are you saying that to offer a CPR class or First Aid I have to take off my CAP uniform and wear civies? When the AHA center I am affiliated with states I can instruct at my facility...

It did not bother about 6 squadrons I offered these classes to, from two different Groups when I gave those classes ten years ago.

Now I am AHA certified.

As an instructor, I have to follow AHA or ARC protocols, use their books, and give their cards to any that participate. But take off my uniform?

I took Radiological Emergency from a dual NY Office of Emergency Management - CAP instructor. He announced he was from NYOEM but wore his CAP uniform at a CAP Group office.

So are you saying the OP has to wear his military or LE uniform while conducting this class? It has been already established he has other qualifications that are relevant. I am sure that his Wing honcho read his proposal. Since we know that NHQ personnel read this board, and some post, that Wing CC will probably be reminded of appropriate regulations.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Yes, that's >exactly< what I am saying, since in all the cases cited, you are not acting as a member of CAP and
there should be no question as to who you are when you're acting for another agency.

CAP has made it very clear they do not provide first aid training and it must be provided by an outside agency.
Wearing your CAP uniform while providing the training muddies that perception for the membership, and may well
imply, and possibly incur, liability on CAP it has not accepted or authorized.

When you train for the AHA, you are "Mr. Flyer" not "Capt Flyer" (etc.)

[Luis R. Ramos]

It is not muddied if/when the member identifies himself clearly.

But can you tell me how it is muddied when I teach that class, and not muddied when I wear the CPR ARC Instructor patch on my BDU per CAP regulations? Or AHA when and/if it comes?

Flyer

[Eclipse]

I have no idea why NHQ authorizes the patches, but they have little to no meaning in a CAP context.
There's plenty of people wearing them who have never taught a class for CAP.

So, rather then be simply "clear", and wear civilian clothes that day, you have to remind people continuously.

Seriously, the mental hoops people go through just to do what they want.

If I arranged to teach a group of CAP members how to ride a motorcycle, I certainly wouldn't wear my CAP uniform while
acting as one of the instructors.

Bright lines make things nice and clear for everyone.  Dim ones serve unknown purposes.

When you're teaching for the AHA, you are conducting >their< business, and it is inappropriate to be in a CAP uniform.

[lordmonar]

Please consult the HAA guidelines found in CAPR 52-16.  I've done my homework correctly, just trying to solve the mystery of the badge.  If anyone else has information or has badges for sale, please let me know.  I would greatly appreciate it.

Please consult the section of 52-16 in regards to firearms training, specifically.  Firearms training is not an "HAA".

b. Firearm Training. Cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see August 2012 CAPR 900-3 Firearms - Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials 15 Aug 2012. Training must be sponsored and supervised by military personnel qualified as range officers or range safety officers; local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors; or National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association, or Amateur Trap Shooting Association firearms instructors.

CAP members are not allowed to provide the training.

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

It isn't done at CAP facilities and CAP does not award any badges.

"You" are not allowed to sanction the training or award anything.  This is the coordination of an activity provided
by some other organization, whether it's military, law enforcement, or NRA training.

A CAPF 2 awarding the NRA marksmanship medal is still required.

[Eclipse]

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

Not in their capacity as a CAP member.

Just as a member who is a First Aid instructor may provide that training, but not in their capacity as a member.

[Captain St. Clair]

Sounds like a bunch of O-7s hijacked this thread.

Good luck.  I do hope that some of you guys do fun things out there with your Cadets, otherwise the organization just turns into another inept outfit.  As for me, I called Nationals and took their guidance.

L8r.  I'm done with thread you all can have it.

Very sorry I ever posted on this forum.

[SarDragon]

Not a bunch of O-7s, but rather a group of members who have a LOT of experience in CAP. You asked for information and received it. Just because it doesn't match what you wanted to hear isn't our fault.

There is a set of rules, and we have to follow them. Just because they might be outdated, or just plain suck, doesn't give us any right to disregard them.

[Eclipse]

Good luck.  I do hope that some of you guys do fun things out there with your Cadets, otherwise the organization just turns into another inept outfit.

The typical response when someone realizes there is more to CAP then just "doing whatever you want".  There is no reason you can't have fun activities for
your members, just follow the rules and don't get defensive if you find you missed something.

As for me, I called Nationals and took their guidance.

If that is the case, then they would have told you exactly what you read here.

L8r.  I'm done with thread you all can have it.

Very sorry I ever posted on this forum.

Welcome to CAPTalk.

Why are you sorry?  Seriously.  I don't get this attitude when people disagree.

If you're correct, then whatever we say here isn't going to matter.  If you aren't, then we've provided important information
that you need to protect yourself and the organization.  The regs regarding firearms use are nothing to play games with.

This is a discussion forum.  Or did you simply want to "announce" what you are doing?  You asked questions and
we answered them directly and factually.  Taking your bytes and going home won't change that.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse-

Well said. While we sometimes disagree with interpretation and argue back and forth, yours - and SAR - is the attitude to take. You cannot go to a public forum that people use for advice, announce what you intend to do and expect people with a lot of experience to just shut up.



I guess that is how some people expect us to be.

Flyer

[lordmonar]

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

Not in their capacity as a CAP member.

Just as a member who is a First Aid instructor may provide that training, but not in their capacity as a member.

I wonder where you get that disctinction....and how you back that up with the regulations.

[Eclipse]

From the regs, it's very clear.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Sounds like a bunch of O-7s hijacked this thread.

Good luck.  I do hope that some of you guys do fun things out there with your Cadets, otherwise the organization just turns into another inept outfit.  As for me, I called Nationals and took their guidance.

L8r.  I'm done with thread you all can have it.

Very sorry I ever posted on this forum.

Great 'tude! I used to be like that, as a 15 year old C/CMSgt too.

That said, what did NHQ tell you?

[Ground Pounder]

Interesting post.  I can't imagine Capt. St. Clair will respond.  He took a pretty good beating just by asking a benign question.  Lets see what happens....

[lordmonar]

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

Not in their capacity as a CAP member.

Just as a member who is a First Aid instructor may provide that training, but not in their capacity as a member.

Cite please......I have read the regs.....and still don't see anything explicit that says it cannot be done in their capacity as a member.

[Eclipse]

Cite please......I have read the regs.....and still don't see anything explicit that says it cannot be done in their capacity as a member.

Cite where is says, anywhere, that CAP, as an organization is allowed to provide these types of training without the outside organization.

The regs in this regard are very clear as to who, and how these activities are authorized.  In all cases, it is made very clear that
CAP doesn't provide or sanction it, only facilitate the activity with some other organization.

The fact that a member happens to have two hats at home doesn't change that.  Further, I'd hazard that in most cases, the
sanctioning organization, be it military, law enforcement, or NRA, would have their own requirements in that regard as well.

The bottom line is that CAP has made it very clear they have no interest in the liability that these activities can bring on, and
only allow them when another organization assumes that mantle. 

And further to this, from a practical perspective, why would anyone bother when it obviously muddied the role.

"Capt Shooter, why aren't you wearing your uniform?"

"Because I am here today in my role as an NRA instructor, and it's important everyone understand that.  CAP
is not sanctioning or providing any of the instruction you will receive here today."

Also, while it might be expedient for a member to facilitate these activities, I'd be willing to bet if you asked them
that NHQ would prefer that member disengage from being the instructors altogether and connect the member with someone
else, thereby insuring they are left out of any liability issues that may ensue. 

[bflynn]

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

Not in their capacity as a CAP member.

Just as a member who is a First Aid instructor may provide that training, but not in their capacity as a member.

Cite please......I have read the regs.....and still don't see anything explicit that says it cannot be done in their capacity as a member.

It's a technical distinction.  CAP does not certify instructors for this, therefore there is no means for anyone to give instruction as a CAP member.  However, a member who has been certified by another authority to teach this can give instruction because their recognized authority to teach it comes from the other organization.

The whole thing about wearing a uniform is an opinion.  There is nothing in regs that states you must not wear a uniform when teaching in your capacity from another organization.  In fact, a counter opinion can be given that because CAP regulations specifically recognize other authorities, CAP is authorizing instruction from them.

In the end - go do fun things and enjoy it. 

I'm going flying...

[lordmonar]

Cite please......I have read the regs.....and still don't see anything explicit that says it cannot be done in their capacity as a member.

Cite where is says, anywhere, that CAP, as an organization is allowed to provide these types of training without the outside organization.

Flight training is a good example.   You have to be an FAA CFI......but CAP certainly does flight training as CAP members.

The regs in this regard are very clear as to who, and how these activities are authorized.  In all cases, it is made very clear that
CAP doesn't provide or sanction it, only facilitate the activity with some other organization.

"very clear"??   If it was very clear we would not be having this discussion.

The fact that a member happens to have two hats at home doesn't change that.  Further, I'd hazard that in most cases, the
sanctioning organization, be it military, law enforcement, or NRA, would have their own requirements in that regard as well.

Actually I would hazard not.  The ARC does not care what "uniform" their instructors are wearing.....the AHA the same.

The bottom line is that CAP has made it very clear they have no interest in the liability that these activities can bring on, and
only allow them when another organization assumes that mantle.

Again.....I need to see that in writing.......it is a CAP activity approved by the wing commander.....CAP does not just give up liability like that.  You take your cadets to a professional gun range and something happens......you bet CAP is liable! 

And further to this, from a practical perspective, why would anyone bother when it obviously muddied the role.

"Capt Shooter, why aren't you wearing your uniform?"

"Because I am here today in my role as an NRA instructor, and it's important everyone understand that.  CAP
is not sanctioning or providing any of the instruction you will receive here today."

Again.....I need to specfically see that in writing to beleive it.

Also, while it might be expedient for a member to facilitate these activities, I'd be willing to bet if you asked them
that NHQ would prefer that member disengage from being the instructors altogether and connect the member with someone
else, thereby insuring they are left out of any liability issues that may ensue.

Actually you don't have to ask NHQ.....just wing......and once again.....it is still a wing approved activity and therefore CAP has liability anyways.

[lordmonar]

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

Not in their capacity as a CAP member.

Just as a member who is a First Aid instructor may provide that training, but not in their capacity as a member.

Cite please......I have read the regs.....and still don't see anything explicit that says it cannot be done in their capacity as a member.

It's a technical distinction.  CAP does not certify instructors for this, therefore there is no means for anyone to give instruction as a CAP member.  However, a member who has been certified by another authority to teach this can give instruction because their recognized authority to teach it comes from the other organization.

The whole thing about wearing a uniform is an opinion.  There is nothing in regs that states you must not wear a uniform when teaching in your capacity from another organization.  In fact, a counter opinion can be given that because CAP regulations specifically recognize other authorities, CAP is authorizing instruction from them.

In the end - go do fun things and enjoy it. 

I'm going flying...

CAP does not certify CFIs but we do Flight Instruction all the time.   

If CAP personnel were FORBIDDEN to do this sort of instruction then that needs to be clearly spelled out in the regulation.  It would say something like "CAP personnel are forbidden to conduct fire arms training.  If a CAP member is also an authorised instructor discribed in para XXX.X he may conduct the training as a member of the instructing organisation and not a CAP member."

But since it does not say anything like that.....there is no restrictions as far as I know to a CAP member, in uniform, performing this sort of instruction or any other sort of approved HAA.

[jimmydeanno]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this argument.  It sounds like what we are talking about is a person acting as an expert in a field that holds a certain credential from an outside credentialing agency (AHA, ARC, NRA, etc) versus someone acting as an employee of that agency.

Example:  My wife is a "certified AHA CPR Instructor" and regularly teaches CPR classes in her military uniform.  The instruction begins with her telling everyone that the course is certified by the AHA and that is the method they will be using.  AHA has credentialed her to teach, but she isn't an employee, and doesn't wear AHA gear.  I liken this to someone who is a history expert not having to wear their "UMUC Alumni" polo because that is who certified that they know what they're talking about by issuing a degree.  CISSP instructors don't have to wear CISCO gear when teaching when they work for a university or other employer, etc.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Jimmy-

Eclipse says that "any person credentialed by AHA or ARC cannot teach while wearing the CAP uniform. This is needed so that there is clear separation between CAP, AHA, and ARC."

Therefore according to his entire postings and using the example you provided, your wife cannot teach AHA while wearing the military uniform.

Another example: many AHA instructors end up being nurses at hospitals and other health care facilities. According to Eclipse, these nurses cannot wear their health facility uniforms while teaching AHA or ARC.

Again, AHA and ARC only care their procedures are followed. Name the agency, AHA or ARC. Give a card. Every student get a book. Test with a minimum of 80%. Do compressions a certain way. A certain amount of material be covered. And they will send, every now and then, someone to make sure this is happening. Nothing about uniforms, only that if you do not wear a uniform, dress professionally.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Therefore according to his entire postings and using the example you provided, your wife cannot teach AHA while wearing the military uniform.

Not connected - what may or may not be done in a military or other uniform has nothing to do with CAP regs, nor what other agencies or orgs dictate isn't CAP's concern.

You're confusing what the AHA rules might be with what CAP's rules are.

Though with that said, I would hazard these other organizations would feel the same way.

Your assertions don't make logical sense.   If CAP was interested in the implied and actual liability of providing these types of classes,
they simply would provide them.  Instead we have a very clear, very bright, very specific requirement that first aid, firearms, and other instruction
be provided by anyone but CAP personnel.

[lordmonar]

I liken this to someone who is a history expert not having to wear their "UMUC Alumni" polo because that is who certified that they know what they're talking about by issuing a degree.

My BA is in history from UMUC.   

[lordmonar]

Therefore according to his entire postings and using the example you provided, your wife cannot teach AHA while wearing the military uniform.

Not connected - what may or may not be done in a military or other uniform has nothing to do with CAP regs, nor what other agencies or orgs dictate isn't CAP's concern.

You are right........but where is it written?

You're confusing what the AHA rules might be with what CAP's rules are.

Yes that is correct.....so what are CAP's rule?  Please cite Chapter and Verse.

Though with that said, I would hazard these other organizations would feel the same way.

Being a former ARC and AHA CPR instructor, a former ARC INSTRUCTOR TRAINER, well as a former ARC life guarding and swimming instructor trainer......I can tell you that the ARC does not care.  They care you have an instructor agreement on file with the local office, that you fill out your paperwork correctly, you follow the instructional guidelines and standards and each student gets (and pays for) their own book.

Your assertions don't make logical sense.   If CAP was interested in the implied and actual liability of providing these types of classes,
they simply would provide them.  Instead we have a very clear, very bright, very specific requirement that first aid, firearms, and other instruction
be provided by anyone but CAP personnel.

Or....they could be saying.....these are not our core competancies and why reinvent the wheel.
I notice you don't take up the flight training argument.  Why can we teach cadets to fly but not to shoot guns or do first aid?   If it is liablilty.....I would think that CAP would have similar regulations against that as well.   You have asserted that it is agains the regs......but I still see no regulations so stateing.

[Eclipse]

I notice you don't take up the flight training argument.  Why can we teach cadets to fly but not to shoot guns or do first aid?   If it is liablilty.....I would think that CAP would have similar regulations against that as well.   You have asserted that it is agains the regs......but I still see no regulations so stateing.

I didn't take up the flight training argument because it is also irrelevant to the discussion.

One is allowed, one isn't.  Why doesn't matter, and that's an attitude more members should adopt.

The rules for firearms & first aid training are specific, and any other interpretation smacks of "you can't make me". 

Can you name a single good reason to wear the CAP uniform when you are clearly acting as an agent of another organization?  Convenience is not an acceptable answer since
everyone has civvies.

[lordmonar]

I notice you don't take up the flight training argument.  Why can we teach cadets to fly but not to shoot guns or do first aid?   If it is liablilty.....I would think that CAP would have similar regulations against that as well.   You have asserted that it is agains the regs......but I still see no regulations so stateing.

I didn't take up the flight training argument because it is also irrelevant to the discussion.

One is allowed, one isn't.  Why doesn't matter, and that's an attitude more members should adopt.

The rules for firearms & first aid training are specific, and any other interpretation smacks of "you can't make me". 

Can you name a single good reason to wear the CAP uniform when you are clearly acting as an agent of another organization?  Convenience is not an acceptable answer since
everyone has civvies.

And there's the switch.

You have asserted again firearm and first aid training have "specfic" rules that forbid CAP member performing said training.......and I asked CITE PLEASE.

Then you switch the argument for me to show "a single good reason to wear......"  I don't have to.....as I am not asserting any rules one way or the other.....you are.

[Eclipse]

You have asserted again firearm and first aid training have "specfic" rules that forbid CAP member performing said training.......and I asked CITE PLEASE.

Cite what?  The rules that require that training be provided by outside parties?

See 52-16, 900-3, & 60-3. Nothing new there.

Are you asserting that this training can be provided by members with no coincidental outside affiliations?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse-

Wrong on

What AHA rules might be.

I posted on a previous memo I am a current AHA instructor. And I have taught under the ARC as well. I post as a dual-hat CAP and AHA volunteer!

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Eclipse-

Wrong on "what AHA rules might be.

I posted on a previous memo I am a current AHA instructor. And I have taught under the ARC as well. I post as a dual-hat CAP and AHA volunteer!

Flyer

Great.  Wear an AHA golf shirt and move on.

[Luis R. Ramos]

But... but... I am at a CAP activity!         

You mean bully, are making me cry... NOT!

I have read those regulations a thousand times. It does not say what you want them to say. They only say a certified instructor, and hands-on practice.

Flyer

[lordmonar]

You have asserted again firearm and first aid training have "specfic" rules that forbid CAP member performing said training.......and I asked CITE PLEASE.

Cite what?  The rules that require that training be provided by outside parties?

See 52-16, 900-3, & 60-3. Nothing new there.

Are you asserting that this training can be provided by members with no coincidental outside affiliations?

No....but neither can FAA training....but you are not saying that our flight academies are NOT CAP activities.  Or that CAP members providing flight training in CAP aircraft have to wear civilian clothes...........ergo....your assertion that Fire Arms Training approved by wing that must be provided by a LE/military/NRA RSO has to be done by someone who represents LE/Military/NRA ONLY does not carry through.

If CAP is okay with a CAP Member who is an FAA CFI giving instruction to cadets........why are they not okay with a CAP member who is also an ARC First Aid Instructor or A CAP member who is an NRA RSP giving instrution in their own dicsiplines?   YOU assert that it is "clearly" against the rules......Now I'm a college graduate with dyslexia and I don't see that "clear" rule anywhere in 52-16, 900-3 or 60-3.   And we recently just took a bunch of our cadets to a wing approved, NRA run shooting class.......and we are in the process of getting several of our members to get NRA instructor qualified so we don't have to charge our cadets an arm and a leg for range fees.   

So....unless you can cite chapter and verse......you are wrong!

[Eclipse]

I have to go shred ES history...

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse-

That I agree wholeheartedly. 

You are the best shredder these boards sport!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Flyer

[cap235629]

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

Not in their capacity as a CAP member.

Just as a member who is a First Aid instructor may provide that training, but not in their capacity as a member.

Bob,

I have the same approval from NHQ to provide Firearms Instruction as an HAA.  I am also dual hatted and the PRIMARY Instructor all with NHQ approval.  There is an old saying in the RM, "There is a waiver for EVERYTHING". I think your geographical bias is showing in your interpretation of the rules.

Love ya man, but NHQ outranks YOU..