Down with grog

[Dad2-4]

This may open a can of worms, but can't a grog bowl be considered hazing?
Reading from regulations:
"CAP REGULATION 52-10, 11 JANUARY 2006
1.c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator."

So what I see is a group of cadets dumping all sorts of ingredients into a bowl, sometimes approved for human comsumption, sometimes not, and using "military tradition" and peer pressure to get cadets to drink it for "infractions" against the mess. So even if the cadet drinks upon "implied consent", doesn't it still fit the definition of "humiliating" or "demeaning"?

[Hawk200]

I've never been to anyplace that had cadets going to a grog bowl. Considering some seniors, I wouldn't want them to.

[dwb]

Generally, no.

Obviously, I don't condone putting alcohol or thumb tacks or potential allergens (i.e., peanuts) in the grog.

However, I would be hard pressed to provide a compelling argument that a grog bowl is prima facie an act of hazing.  However, like any tradition, it needs to be done in a certain context and in a reasonable manner.

[ddelaney103]

Hazing?  Almost certainly, esp. with the tight rules we have.

When "corrective action =/= transgression" you have potential for hazing.  Add to it that drinking some vile concoction is at least flirting with:

Conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.

and you're there.

[jimmydeanno]

I actually took some of my cadets to a ROTC dining-in a few weeks ago - they were all nervous about the grog (jet fuel, sand, cat urine, etc ) But I wouldn't consider it hazing at all.  

The CAP activities that I've been to that have had a grog actually make some pretty tasty grog - ginger-ale, fruit punch, some other tasty things.  

Most of what I've seen from the cadets is that they look for ways to get called up.

[O-Rex]

Grog bowl is all in fun: we put in the final "special ingredient:" simple apple juice, which incidentally looks alot like, well. . . you know. . . . .

In the days of yore, grog was usually a heinous concoction, now it's usually all in good fun, with harmless ingredients, and a little bit of the power of suggestion.

[dwb]

When we're discussing hazing, it's important to remember a few things:

• Hazing, and allegations thereof, are serious business.  People get demoted for hazing.  They get kicked out of CAP.  In extreme cases, they could face criminal charges.  Not to mention what may happen to the victims of hazing.
  
  
• When discussing hazing scenarios, context is everything, and information is power.  What may look bad on the surface turns out not to be that much of a stretch when viewed in context, and vice versa.
  
  
• Bad leadership is not the same thing as hazing.  Someone can do something really stupid and use astonishingly bad judgement, but that doesn't mean hazing has occurred.

With those thoughts in mind, let's revisit the opening question: Is the grog bowl tradition hazing?

Does a grog bowl cause people to suffer?  Is it cruel, abusive, oppressive or harmful?

Think about those words.  Those are strong words.  Very serious acts are attached to those words.  Is drinking fruit punch with goldfish in it really harmful or abusive?

Now, keep in mind, context is everything.  There are grog mixtures that are less harmful than most energy drinks kids drink these days.  Then there are grog mixtures that make people vomit.  They're not the same thing.

If the grog mixture has paper clips, gin and Ex-Lax in it, and we're feeding it to 12-year-olds, is it cruel, abusive, or harmful?

Ah, now we may arrive at a different answer.

So it's not so clear.

Just read the handful of replies in this thread; reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes hazing, and that's an issue.  It's an issue with the definition, and an issue with the training CAP provides to its senior members.

Personally, if it's done in good fun and contains no harmful ingredients, I think calling it hazing is inappropriate.  But, like a lot of traditions, I think it's easy for otherwise well-meaning people to make it into something that can cause people to suffer.

Which is why I said in my first post that a grog bowl is not, on the surface, evidence of hazing.

[isuhawkeye]

As a person who was truly "Hazed" I find it interesting how many people perceive this issue.  Hazing became a problem in out culture not because someone felt uncomfortable, but because Young men and women were DYING.

Thank goodness organisations have done a lot to limit true hazing incidents.  Having said that.......

*****_Redacted for political correctness_******

[wuzafuzz]

We had a Dining-In last week and cadets were volunteering to visit the grog bowl.  Although people with no uniform were considered off limits, new cadets without uniforms insisted they be sent anyway.  They enjoyed the attention.  Senior members were also fair game; a few of them visited the bowl.  Everyone enjoyed it.  In the right context it's definitely not hazing.

My son was one of the cadets who visited the grog bowl.  He had a blast!

(Disclaimer: the grog didn't taste good, nor was it horrible.)

[Flying Pig]

I was sent to the grog many times at cadet activities....never embarassed, and noboby made it out without getting grog'd.  Enjoyed every second.  Well, didnt really enjoy the soggy Cheetos, but still fun.

[Eclipse]

OK, let me ask you this.

What happens to a member who simply wanted to attend the party without:

A: getting sick (gross grog).

B: getting overly intoxicated & sick (alcoholic grog).

He simply politely refuse to drink the muck?

[flyguy06]

This may open a can of worms, but can't a grog bowl be considered hazing?
Reading from regulations:
"CAP REGULATION 52-10, 11 JANUARY 2006
1.c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator."

So what I see is a group of cadets dumping all sorts of ingredients into a bowl, sometimes approved for human comsumption, sometimes not, and using "military tradition" and peer pressure to get cadets to drink it for "infractions" against the mess. So even if the cadet drinks upon "implied consent", doesn't it still fit the definition of "humiliating" or "demeaning"?

Your post brings up my whole issue about hazing in General. Its an undefinable term. Hazing means differant things to differant people.
Ihoe however that we dont get tho the point where we are so afraind to "haze" or offend someone that we just do nothing but come in and talk. I mean drill could be considered hazing to some folks

[Flying Pig]

OK, let me ask you this.

What happens to a member who simply wanted to attend the party without:

A: getting sick (gross grog).

B: getting overly intoxicated & sick (alcoholic grog).

He simply politely refuse to drink the muck?

Ive never seen anyone "forced" to go to the grog.  In CAP, Ive never seen ANY alcohol in a grog bowl.  As a CAP member, Ive seen members who just said "No Thank You" and people moved right along without missing a beat. 

[flyguy06]

Ok, some people have never seen a real grog.

Most grog's do not really have alcohol or al that other bad stuffin them. I do not drink period and I have been to a many dining ins/outs

[Gunner C]

I remember the days BEFORE the grog at Dining-Ins.  It seemed that the entertainment was provided by Mr Vice - the first one I went to was a scream!  I really have a problem with the Grog Bowl.  It's just in bad taste and doesn't add anything to the event.

I think it stems from people trying to "out military the military."  IMO, it's just stupid.  BTW, if there was alcohol in the grog, you'd have one heck of a law suit from me!  You have no right to expect anyone to drink that stuff.

Gunner

[Galahad]

When we're discussing hazing, it's important to remember a few things:

• Hazing, and allegations thereof, are serious business.  People get demoted for hazing.  They get kicked out of CAP.  In extreme cases, they could face criminal charges.  Not to mention what may happen to the victims of hazing.
  

Major, that's a great point.  The following is a little off track from the grog issue, but I think it's worth the detour. 

One of the things I see all too frequently now is the "specious" hazing or abuse complaint. The victim basically throws mud against the wall to see if it will stick.  They are completely insulated.  If they've lied or grossly exaggerated nothing will fall back on them. The complaint will be quietly dismissed, but only after the inevitable character assassination has been accomplished.

True example:  A senior officer taps a giggling cadet officer from another squadron on the shoulder to get them to pay attention to an important briefing prior to a CAP public performance. Cadet officer is embarrassed. After the briefing, senior officer senses cadet's distress and apologizes to cadet, explaining that tapping them on the shoulder was the only reasonable method to get their attention since they were unresponsive to verbal commands. After event is concluded, cadet officer files a cadet protection "physical abuse" complaint against the senior officer.   Senior officer is called before a tribunal headed by the wing commander at wing HQ. Officer has to burn vacation time to leave work early to attend meeting. Wing commander threatens officer with a CAPF-2B for "touching a cadet without permission", but then concedes that he can't proceed because the cadet has decided to drop the complaint. Wing commander orders the officer to participate in "remedial" CPPT training. Officer will be "watched" for any further CPPT violations.    Said officer will now not get anywhere near a CAP cadet...

I'm all for strict CPPT, but this hit-and-run nonsense should also have consequences. 

I've seen similar post-event "he-said/she-said" complaints about what was in the grog at encampment banquets, and whether cadets got sick or didn't after drinking the grog. Many accusations- few facts.

[flyerthom]

What is a grog bowl? I've never heard of one and have been to many squadron and wing banquets.

[Johnny Yuma]

In the 11 combined years I've been in CAP I've only been to one Dining in that had a grog bowl.

I prefer real Grog:

3 pints water
1 pint Pusser's British Navy Rum
1 Lime
Dark Brown sugar to taste

Mix all ingredients and pour over ice.

Don't forget the toast of the day:
Monday: Our ships at sea.
Tuesday: Our men.
Wednesday: Ourselves.
Thursday: A bloody war and quick promotion.
Friday: A willing soul and sea room.
Saturday: Sweethearts and wives, may they never meet.
Sunday: Absent friends and those at sea.

http://www.pussers.com

[Eclipse]

What is a grog bowl? I've never heard of one and have been to many squadron and wing banquets.

One of these days Wikipedia will be available for everyone, but until it is:

Honoring the 18th Century British Army regimental mess and grog's historical significance in the military, the United States Navy, United States Air Force, and United States Army carry on a tradition at its formal dining in ceremonies whereby those in attendance who are observed to violate formal etiquette are "punished" by being sent to "the grog" and publicly drink from it in front of the attendees. The grog usually consists of various alcoholic beverages mixed together, unappealing to the taste, and contained in a toilet bowl. A non-alcoholic variety of the grog is also typically available for those in attendance who do not consume alcohol and can contain anything from hot sauce to mayonnaise intended to make it unappealing to the taste as well. Attendees may also be singled out and sent to "the grog" for some good-natured ribbing and teasing.

[JohnKachenmeister]

First of all, anybody who puts harmful substances in a Grog Bowl should be shot.  Anybody who puts alcohol in a Grog Bowl at a function involving cadets should also be shot.  Their judgement is so demonstrably poor as to be beyond rehabilitation.

That being said, the good-natured fun of a Grog Bowl is a part of the formal dining experience, and should not be denied to cadets... or officers for that matter.

Good-natured teasing and ribbing is NOT hazing.   If you think so, I have to question your judgement.

And... you know what I think should be done to people with bad judgement!