Enjoy Your Website

[Civilian_Pilot]

I was not implying that you want us to search faster. I was saying that we are doing what we are trained to do. If you do not like your tax money helping an organization that helps other, by all means leave the country, and your tax money won't fund the organization that you have no clue about.

And again--I read what you said and implied.

I will again state:  If all the CAP wants to do is Kingdom build and make "little princes" yes--I want my monies going to another place that will focus on the mission of SEARCH & RESCUE.

48 hours, and you think you have the right to complain about how the organization is run, while not being a dues paying member? I strongly encourage you sir to step back, and look at what you've started. If you wanted information about the Fossett search, read the news. Not what is posted by members of an organization that just happens to be involved in something that's peaked your interest.

Don't be so surprised.  If it were not for the Fossett search I would have never looked on this forum.  I would not have been interested in what the CAP was up to. 

48 hours and an interest in the Fossett search has turned into my total bafflement of what exactly the CAP has been up to.

We can take criticism. Criticism comes with dedication. Can't you see that? We are dedicated members, and you are criticizing it. If you don't think you could handle membership, express that. Don't express your misconceptions about CAP just because you jump on here, and read a few back threads.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do sir, but it is not the members of CAP who are ridiculous, it is you.

Brilliant.

[SDF_Specialist]

I was not implying that you want us to search faster. I was saying that we are doing what we are trained to do. If you do not like your tax money helping an organization that helps other, by all means leave the country, and your tax money won't fund the organization that you have no clue about.

And again--I read what you said and implied.

I will again state:  If all the CAP wants to do is Kingdom build and make "little princes" yes--I want my monies going to another place that will focus on the mission of SEARCH & RESCUE.

48 hours, and you think you have the right to complain about how the organization is run, while not being a dues paying member? I strongly encourage you sir to step back, and look at what you've started. If you wanted information about the Fossett search, read the news. Not what is posted by members of an organization that just happens to be involved in something that's peaked your interest.

Don't be so surprised.  If it were not for the Fossett search I would have never looked on this forum.  I would not have been interested in what the CAP was up to. 

48 hours and an interest in the Fossett search has turned into my total bafflement of what exactly the CAP has been up to.

We can take criticism. Criticism comes with dedication. Can't you see that? We are dedicated members, and you are criticizing it. If you don't think you could handle membership, express that. Don't express your misconceptions about CAP just because you jump on here, and read a few back threads.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do sir, but it is not the members of CAP who are ridiculous, it is you.

Brilliant.

Thank you for your compliment on my brilliance sir. It's always nice to be flattered once in a while. Our mission is search and rescue. It is ot to distribute information that we have been instructed by the AF to keep quiet for legal reasons. There are rules that have to be followed as I'm sure that you're aware of. If you want more information than what you have found here, then by all mean explore other sources. I'm sorry you haven't found our organization to be spewing personal information helpful.

[Civilian_Pilot]

If you want more information than what you have found here, then by all mean explore other sources. I'm sorry you haven't found our organization to be spewing personal information helpful.

I wasn't looking for personal information.

I don't want personnel information.

My questions were about a situation discussed on a public forum.

I raised a few issues and now you try to misconstrue what I have said OR you are making statements without reading what I have asked.

[Major Lord]

Civilian Pilot,

Your rebuttal to my post make it clear that you have no regard for CAP regulations. Thats fine, because you are not subject to them. There are many regulations CAP has that many of us us disagree with ( including the non-use of helicopters, prohibitions on providing medical aid, etc.) We however, are subject to the rules. Although inviting qualified pilots to throw in with us on searches may be a peachy idea, we don't have the authority to do it. We work for the USAF on assigned missions and don't break rules just because it seems like it might be a good idea.  This thread did not arise because you or others are unhappy with the limitations placed on CAP by law, regulation, MOU's, etc., but because someone tried to BS the group with a pack of lies about a non-incident.

You will notice in my posts, that I use my name. I assume that anyone that wishes to remain anonymous should expect that his observations will be taken with a grain of salt, and their motivations questioned.

Your published list of credentials is impressive. Why don't you join CAP and we can come to terms with you on what we do, and what we don't do?

Major Lord

[Civilian_Pilot]

Civilian Pilot,

Your rebuttal to my post make it clear that you have no regard for CAP regulations.

You don't know what my reguard for CAP regulations are.

Thats fine, because you are not subject to them. There are many regulations CAP has that many of us us disagree with ( including the non-use of helicopters, prohibitions on providing medical aid, etc.) We however, are subject to the rules. Although inviting qualified pilots to throw in with us on searches may be a peachy idea, we don't have the authority to do it.

Right.  OK .  The specific incident I am speaking of the pilot did introduce himself to the Ops instead of launching into the search area on his own.  You were the one lecturing me on "safety".  I know what "safety" is.  This guy did everything correctly in how he approached the search and CAP.

If you go read the locked thread about the incident your own CAP people who observed it were even shocked at how rudely this person was treated.

When he left he took an asset far superior to the Cessna 182 the CAP is conducting the search.

The most telling thing is now the search is asking for turbine helicopters to come in and conduct the search.

Even if you can't admit it to yourself CAP really dropped the ball.

We work for the USAF on assigned missions and don't break rules just because it seems like it might be a good idea.  This thread did not arise because you or others are unhappy with the limitations placed on CAP by law, regulation, MOU's, etc., but because someone tried to BS the group with a pack of lies about a non-incident.

Also--one of your own CAP personnel was with him the entire time and stated here on this forum that the individual never identified himself as law enforcement.

You will notice in my posts, that I use my name. I assume that anyone that wishes to remain anonymous should expect that his observations will be taken with a grain of salt, and their motivations questioned.

Your published list of credentials is impressive. Why don't you join CAP and we can come to terms with you on what we do, and what we don't do?

Major Lord

Frankly I don't need to join it so "we can come to terms with you on what we do, and what we don't do?"

In fact--this forum would be perfect for that endeavor except from what I experienced here most of the CAP membership is to immature to do so.

The shame is I am certain there are some very good people within CAP who get fed up an leave--only allowing the "glory hounds" to climb higher.

One simple statement by a CAP member in the Fossett search which was the reason I joined this forum:

According to what I see here, many non-posters agree with some of you that I was wrong in the way I handled this situation. Since none of you seem to have the courage to confront me directly, then I will say I really don't care how you feel about it. If you don't like me or my style, you are cordially invited to not participate in future events where I am involved.

The funny things is after interecting with you as a group, any of you could have made it.

[alamrcn]

"Deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that search... you NEED me on that search!"

If an entire thread was removed, it was because something was said by someone (member or non-member) that shouldn't have been... or at least not yet, till this thing has ended.

I respect the judgements of the moderators here, and don't feel that any of them would react in an irrational manor or act in personal malice toward an individual poster. They are actually pretty lenient and let a lot of threads work themselves out... such as this one.

I wish I had seen the original thread before it was removed. IF the subject matter was in good taste, and of a matter that is suitable for public discussion here.... POST IT AGAIN. I would ask ALL of the posters here to respond to the thread with the best of intensions and for the benefit of the topic at hand - not the destruction of it or to defame someone or something.

Let's get on with normal business already.

- Ace

[Eclipse]

"Deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that search... you NEED me on that search!"

...awesome

[Larry Mangum]

As an Incident Commander, I have been on many searches where private pilots have volunteered themselves and their aircraft to assist the search and they are always turned down.

Why? The majority of them are not trained for search nor or their aircraft equipped for communicating with the Highbird or mission base or they are not qualified to fly at the altitudes we search at in the mountains. Flying contour searches in the mountains is a heck of a lot more taxing then performing a grid search in the flatlands. Mountains have their own complex weather system they and the weather can change in a heartbeat.

Yes the Hilton ranch has put out a call for turbine helicopters and are in fact trying to hire QUALIFED Mountain pilots to do so.   I am more then willing to bet that the aircraft and planes the Hilton ranch is hiring are not being tasked or managed by CAP. 

The ICS system was also mentioned in a couple of the posts and I in Washington we particpate in joint command searches all the time with assets from multiple SAR groups being present and tasked. In a situation such as that CAP is just one of assest available to the State SAR coordinator and while I may be the CAP Agency Liaison I might also be the Operations Section Chief and task WASAR to fly a grid, but just like in CAP, they flight realease their own assets.  So it would not be unusual to turn away a pilot and send him to another group which might be able to use him.

[pixelwonk]

IF the subject matter was in good taste, and of a matter that is suitable for public discussion here.... POST IT AGAIN.

I wouldn't recommend reposting locked or removed threads.


To all,
this thread is going nowhere fast, and is just plain bitter.
Cool down. Take things to PM. Don't feed the trolls.
Or... we can just lock this one up too.

[SDF_Specialist]

IF the subject matter was in good taste, and of a matter that is suitable for public discussion here.... POST IT AGAIN.

I wouldn't recommend reposting locked or removed threads.


To all,
this thread is going nowhere fast, and is just plain bitter.
Cool down. Take things to PM. Don't feed the trolls.
Or... we can just lock this one up too.

Tedda, locking sounds good. This is honestly getting nowhere fast, or positive. Just a suggestion.

[Civilian_Pilot]

As an Incident Commander, I have been on many searches where private pilots have volunteered themselves and their aircraft to assist the search and they are always turned down.

Why? The majority of them are not trained for search nor or their aircraft equipped for communicating with the Highbird or mission base or they are not qualified to fly at the altitudes we search at in the mountains. Flying contour searches in the mountains is a heck of a lot more taxing then performing a grid search in the flatlands. Mountains have their own complex weather system they and the weather can change in a heartbeat.

Yes the Hilton ranch has put out a call for turbine helicopters and are in fact trying to hire QUALIFED Mountain pilots to do so.   I am more then willing to bet that the aircraft and planes the Hilton ranch is hiring are not being tasked or managed by CAP. 

The ICS system was also mentioned in a couple of the posts and I in Washington we particpate in joint command searches all the time with assets from multiple SAR groups being present and tasked. In a situation such as that CAP is just one of assest available to the State SAR coordinator and while I may be the CAP Agency Liaison I might also be the Operations Section Chief and task WASAR to fly a grid, but just like in CAP, they flight realease their own assets.  So it would not be unusual to turn away a pilot and send him to another group which might be able to use him.

Well I would hope that the Hilton Ranch would co-ordinate with the CAP.

I do think a disjointed search with people going any direction they want is almost as bad as no search.

[Civilian_Pilot]

Tedda, locking sounds good. This is honestly getting nowhere fast, or positive. Just a suggestion.

Really?  To me it appears this thread has taken a real positive note with the exception of a few people like yourself.

In my opinion locking it would only increase the interst and tone of how the CAP members are acting.

[JayT]

Look, if you get lossed, we'll come and find you.

Other then that, unless you join our organization, I have trouble listerning to your repeated attacks on us.

[Civilian_Pilot]

Look, if you get lossed, we'll come and find you.

Other then that, unless you join our organization, I have trouble listerning to your repeated attacks on us.

Repeated attacks??

I have not "attacked" the CAP. 

Can you not read how the CAP members have responded to me? 

What you have trouble listening to is rebuttal to the immature opinion from CAP members.

Think about it.

[A.Member]

Civilian_Pilot:

While some of your comments in reference to "personalities" certainly may have merit, other comments are equally misplaced.  You seem like an intelligent person.  This is why I find it all the more puzzling that you'd continue a display of broad generalizations and blind criticisms of this organization, SAR procedures, and even the particular incident you continue to bring up.

The liability issue was explained in another thread.  It probably doen't need to be reiterated here.  Nonetheless, as a pilot, you should understand that the most demanding flying takes place at the edge of any performance envelope.  Our flights occur in the most demanding conditions.  We are "low and slow" – average 1000' ft AGL, 90 KTS – and typically heavy with a crew of 3 or 4 plus equipment.   This must be done at precise altitudes with precise track spacing, despite winds and other factors (in this case, mountain flying may be an example of one such added component).  We do this because flying over a piece of real estate at 4000' ft and 200 KTS isn't going to find anything.  Given the critical nature of this flying, we must ensure our pilots are capable of consistently performing safely and effectively.  Thus, they all go through a checkride process.  We can't possibly do this with every person that shows up at mission base in a GA aircraft.  In addition, because safety is a primary concern, the pilot only flies the aircraft.  A trained aircrew performs the actual search/observation.  The call for additional pilots is coming from Flying M, not CAP, for this very logical reason.

But all that is kind of beside the point.  You really seem to be hung up on this one helicopter with FLIR.  Neither that helo nor it's FLIR system are the end all, beat all when it comes to SAR.  And here's where your ignorance of the situation gets the best of you.  You admittedly aren't familiar with SAR, you've never visited a mission base – in particular this one, and you apparently haven't taken the time to familiarize yourself with the assets that are being utilized in this search (or you're choosing to ignore them for some reason).  Thus, consider the following partial list of deployed SAR assets as it relates to this particular mission:

·   Numerous CAP Cessna 172 and 182's equipped with fully SAR qualified aircrews and equipment, including digital imaging.
·   CAP GA-8 equipped with ARCHER
·   OH-58 and HH-60 (NG) (helicopters!)
·   Two  C-130's (NG) – at least one of which is equiped with thermal imaging (ie. FLIR!)
·   RADAR technician support from the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES - USAF)
·   Numerous aircraft and watercraft from law enforcement agencies (including CHP and Sheriff's departments)
·   CAP SAR qualified ground crews

More info:
http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/media_center/press_releases/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6194&newsID=3474&year=2007&month=9
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123066968
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123067178
http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/national_media_coverage.cfm

Based on this, I suspect that you can look back objectively, see the ignorance in a number of your own statements, and realize that some of your criticism is certainly misplaced.  Obviously, plenty of mud has been slung here.  Given this, seems we'd all be well served to step away from the keyboard for a bit.

[JCJ]

IF the subject matter was in good taste, and of a matter that is suitable for public discussion here.... POST IT AGAIN.

I wouldn't recommend reposting locked or removed threads.


To all,
this thread is going nowhere fast, and is just plain bitter.
Cool down. Take things to PM. Don't feed the trolls.
Or... we can just lock this one up too.

Tedda, locking sounds good. This is honestly getting nowhere fast, or positive. Just a suggestion.

Agree.

[addo1]

People, we ALL need to look back on the CAP core values.  If anything we post violates these, then we should not post it.  That includes personal attacks.

[Civilian_Pilot]

This is a recent reply to another thread.  I have quoted it out of the other thread to insert it here:

I have faced this issue many times.  My initial response is to welcome the friends and family into the command post.  We explain what we are doing, and what resources are being deployed to find their loved one.  I then ask for their input.  i ask them to identify areas that they are concerned about searching.  I take that information, and I write assignments form it.  

If they continue to insist on searching I would explain our primary ops area, and ask that they keep a safe operating radius from our crews.  I take the the opportunity to show off our communications, our resource tracking, and our accountability systems.  

If after that I would identify areas that we are currently not searching and I would ask them to contain their activities to a designated region with specific ingress, and egress routes.  

If they persis I would only then impose the TFR,

If they still impose, I would finally get law enforcement involved, and Yes I have had a family member taken into custody.

It is by far the most intelligent response I have read.

I hope the person above who made it is in some sort of leadership position within the CAP because the CAP needs people like him who can manage a situation that creates positive results for every party involved instead of alienating them.

In doing so CAP won't have to grandstand for respect.  They will earn it.

The person who wrote the above through his actions as outlined would demonstrate real leadership qualities--and in high stress situations leadership has to start at the top and then filter down through the ranks.  It's called leadership through example.

[DrDave]

Again, Civilian_Pilot's posts just don't smell right. 

There's some sort of other agenda at work here -- i.e. comments about CAP leadership starting at the top, organizational morale, making assumptions about the entire organization based on an unofficial listserve that includes non-CAP members, very broad brush strokes indeed ...

Plus, as a private pilot, how come he has all this time to waste on CAPtalk over the last 48 hours plus?  Are the opinions from this listserve really that important to him versus everything he did prior to the last 48 hours?  You have to ask, for what purpose is he posting here, and continuing to post ad nauseum the same thing over and over and over again (nice use of BOLD however).  For what purpose?  Why is he trying to score points so heavily?  Score points for who?

I sent him the contact info for several squadrons around his zip code via PM.

Therefore, Civilian_Pilot, I respectfully request you put down your keyboard, step away from the computer, and go to one meeting each of the six or seven squadrons near to you.  Only then, will you begin to get any real idea of what CAP is and what we do for our communities.  You will NOT get an accurate picture of what CAP is from the limited number of posters on this listserve.  The old joke about the different blind men describing an elephant by their limited interaction, comes to mind ...

Moderators, I again ask that this thread be locked.  It serves no useful purpose.

Dr. Dave