Enjoy Your Website

[Civilian_Pilot]

Enjoy your website because any serious discussion about the issues of SEARCH & RERSCUE is removed (Re:  Tom [last name redacted by admin --MK]).

Keep talking about your little badges and medals and how to wear a uniform.  It's a lot safer.

[SDF_Specialist]

Someone's not in a good mood

[Stonewall]

Hey dude, I don't know who you are or which side you're on, but if you have an issue with this site or with someone on this site, take it up with the folks in charge of the forum.

I read all the BS about the helo pilot getting the shaft, and I happen to agree that CAP's actions are embarrassing and lack professionalism any way you look at it.  In short, I agree with you.

I don't put you down for your hobbies and interests, don't put us down for ours.

[Civilian_Pilot]

Hey dude, I don't know who you are or which side you're on, but if you have an issue with this site or with someone on this site, take it up with the folks in charge of the forum.

I read all the BS about the helo pilot getting the shaft, and I happen to agree that CAP's actions are embarrassing and lack professionalism any way you look at it.  In short, I agree with you.

I don't put you down for your hobbies and interests, don't put us down for ours.

You are correct.  I was wrong.

I apologize for the above.  I will not edit it because I am accountable for what I said.  I really do not feel the way the above statement looks.  In fact I support the good people of CAP.

I said it in a moment of frustration over a ongoing professional discussion being removed because it was critical of CAP by the moderators.

It does appear to me that the CAP in general is so thin-skinned that it cannot take criticism or evaluation thus it is set to make the same mistakes over and over.

[SDF_Specialist]

Buddy, criticism comes with dedication. A momentary lapse of judgement can be forgiven. That seems to be the case here

[Eclipse]

It should also be noted that CAPTALK does not equal CAP.

There are many people here who are no longer / never were members, nor does anyone speak officially for the organization here.

[dwb]

*sigh*

Look, this forum is run by a couple of people who happen to be CAP members.  It's not CAP's forum.  Ergo, the owners of the site can pretty much do whatever they want.

Don't like it?

1. Make your own forum, and
2. Make it popular

I don't know what it is about Internet forums that causes them to constantly collapse into conversations about the forum itself, but it's sooo boring because it happens every week, and the initiator always thinks they're so clever and righteous.

"Oh, CAP is thin-skinned because the mean moderators won't let me waltz in uninvited and take a crap in their living room."

[Civilian_Pilot]

Thanks.

Although civilian I am highly involved in aviation and have been aware of the CAP for many years.  Overall I think it is a good organization although I am now coming to the conclusion that CAP has become so thin-skinned that it cannot take a critical discussion or criticism from an outside source.

It appears to me that when a high profile search happens and CAP gets a chance to practice what they have been trained to do, it has become a way to increase their place in the pecking order (and to be the hero).

Sometimes an organization becomes so ego-centric (and it's individuals) that it loses sight of the primary mission.  In this case SEARCH & RESCUE.  Remember:  somewhere beyond the Ops. desk is a person waiting to be rescued irregardless of the power games being played.

I came across this website while doing a search of the internet regarding the Fossett SAR.  In doing so I read the discussion of the helicopter pilot and how he was handled by a single person in CAP Ops.

As such this forum is my only window into that world and I am in utter shock at both how he was treated and the explanation given by the person responsable for what was done.

As a group you have to be aware that during a high profile search such as this that more people than myself will stumble onto this discussion forum.  The impression they leave with will probably be dictated by the individual instead of the group.  With opinions stated such as:  "Since none of you seem to have the courage to confront me directly, then I will say I really don't care how you feel about it. If you don't like me or my style, you are cordially invited to not participate in future events where I am involved"  I am certain many will turn their backs to the CAP.

In addition I also feel that the moderators of this forum by removing the discussion of the above have done a dis-service to the CAP community as a whole.  In training you look at actual situations, evaluate them, and then improve upon them.  Everything within the discussion was civil and constructive although critical of a CAP controlled event.

If the organization cannot allow such a discussion it will not be long before CAP becomes nothing but a hollow shell of what it set out to be.

[Eclipse]

Repeating now...

You are NOT talking to "CAP", you are on a public discussion forum about CAP.

There is a huge difference.

[Civilian_Pilot]

Repeating now...

You are NOT talking to "CAP", you are on a public discussion forum about CAP.

There is a huge difference.

Then why would a legitimate discussion (although critical of CAP) be deleted?

[Civilian_Pilot]

One thing I see as being a tenant of CAP is leadership.

Does effective leadership mean the only discussion are sunshine discussions?

[JC004]

MIKE, Pylon - please allow personal attacks so that the organization will not become a hallow shell of what it set out to be.  While we are at it, someone call Ray, so we can have personal attacks against TP, rather than discussions about the position of National Commander, etc.

[Civilian_Pilot]

MIKE, Pylon - please allow personal attacks so that the organization will not become a hallow shell of what it set out to be.  While we are at it, someone call Ray, so we can have personal attacks against TP, rather than discussions about the position of National Commander, etc.

There were no personal attacks.  Just an evaluation and opinion of the situation.

I am starting to see how immature personnel within CAP can really be.

[A.Member]

As was stated and you are obviously aware, this site is open to anyone willing to abide by the Code of Conduct (ie. you do not have to be a CAP member to participate in discussions here - you are evidence to that).  As such, do not take any comments here to be reflective of the official positions of CAP or it's membership as a whole.  That would be a mistake.

That said, you raise some valid points.  You will also see that others here shared your same concern, especially in the incident you referred to.  Spend some time with us and you will find that we are our own worst critics.  Part of this is a result of the significant number of caring people with exacting standards within the organization.  CAP strives to conduct itself with the utmost level of professionalism and integrity.  To a great extent, we do a very good job at this.  However, as with any organization, especially one of this size, issues and incidents arise.  In most cases, those incidents and issues are the exceptions and are not reflective of the broader organization.  I believe that to be the case here.

One last thought to leave you with...   We are an organization of volunteers - dedicated individuals with a common desire to serve our country and community.  In doing so we've made the conscious decision to take time away from our family and friends to serve others.  With that said, despite some of the peripheral discussions here, we never lose site of the mission and are very much aware of the person(s) in need.  This is not a game for us.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and hope that take the time to view the organization in a much broader sense than a few posts that you may read here.

(NOTE:  The information and opinions expressed by me on this site are mine alone. They do not constitute endorsement by the Civil Air Patrol or the United States Air Force.    )

[Civilian_Pilot]

One last thought to leave you with...   We are an organization of volunteers - dedicated individuals with a common desire to serve our country and community.  In doing so we've made the conscious decision to take time away from our family and friends to serve others.  With that said, despite some of the peripheral discussions here, we never lose site of the mission and are very much aware of the person(s) in need.  This is not a game for us.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and hope that you view the organization in a much broader sense than a few posts that you may read here.

(NOTE:  My post reflects my views only and not that of the Civil Air Patrol or the United States Air Force.    )

Thanks.  You are the most professional person in this thread.

I'll leave you with a thought also.

I have always known the CAP is made of volunteers.  The helicopter pilot cam in and volunteered.  By taking the time to register, comment, try to discuss this incident I took time out of my life also.

Why do I say this?  Because in our own way we all care enough to get involved.  I only took the time to start the deleted discussion because I cared enough to get involved and attempt to change the course of a destructive situation.  

I get the impression that by being critical of the CAP and a situation is forbidden as evidenced by the many immature attitudes/responses displayed here.  It is hard for me to believe individuals who cannot take criticism (even when not aimed at them or a situation they are involved in) can be a part of an organization important enough to be tasked with SEARCH & RESCUE.

Anyway-I'll check back in tonight.

[pixelwonk]

Look folks,  whether one is new here or not, the CoC will always apply.

Personal issues should be ideally left off the forum, or be taken to PM. 
Man up people.

[NIN]

<snip>
I get the impression that by being critical of the CAP and a situation is forbidden as evidenced by the many immature attitudes/responses displayed here.  It is hard for me to believe individuals who cannot take criticism (even when not aimed at them or a situation they are involved in) can be a part of an organization important enough to be tasked with SEARCH & RESCUE.

Anyway-I'll check back in tonight.

Just an FYI, since I run a fairly popular Internet forum for cadets: sometimes you move or mod certain topics not because they're critical of the  organization but more so to keep certain kinds of "online behavior" in check.    For example, we move topics into our "moderators" area, discuss them and then mod the topics in a way which keeps the gist of the topic, the important meat of the subject, and takes away the chaff.  Then we move the topic back into public view with guidance.

Some would say this is "prejudicial to free speech," but again, we're dealing with an online forum that is owned by private individuals other than the government.  We can run it any way we like, and we're not here to have a free-for-all of poor online behavior. We try to preserve the beneficial items (even if they are critical) and eliminate the bad behavior.

[Pylon]

Just an FYI, since I run a fairly popular Internet forum for cadets: sometimes you move or mod certain topics not because they're critical of the  organization but more so to keep certain kinds of "online behavior" in check.    For example, we move topics into our "moderators" area, discuss them and then mod the topics in a way which keeps the gist of the topic, the important meat of the subject, and takes away the chaff.  Then we move the topic back into public view with guidance.

Some would say this is "prejudicial to free speech," but again, we're dealing with an online forum that is owned by private individuals other than the government.  We can run it any way we like, and we're not here to have a free-for-all of poor online behavior. We try to preserve the beneficial items (even if they are critical) and eliminate the bad behavior.

The ever-so-eloquent NIN just described exactly what we have been doing with these topics.  People forget sometimes the site staff has day jobs on top of the hundreds of posts per day we get to read, review, and moderate.

We work as quickly as we can.  See also my response here.

[mikeylikey]

MIKE, Pylon - please allow personal attacks so that the organization will not become a hallow shell of what it set out to be.  While we are at it, someone call Ray, so we can have personal attacks against TP, rather than discussions about the position of National Commander, etc.

Oh don't worry.....Ray Hayden is floating around on here somewhere.  I have a few leads.....just baiting him very slowly!

[flyguy06]

So, I have been at National Guar dtraining last week. Somebody feel me in on what you guys are talking abaout. What's this about a helicopter pilot? And have they found Steve Fossett yet?

[MIKE]

Read the threads... They aren't hard to find.

[Civilian_Pilot]

The crux of it all is contained here in Response #46:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2967.0

And the attitude associated with it.

To recap a few of the main points:

--An individual showed up and volunteered with a helicopter equipped with spotlight, FLIR, appropriate radios

--In doing so he did not just freelance into the search area.  Instead he went into operations to integrate properly with the Ops. Center as evidenced here by a wittiness: 

Feel free to stand by your inaccurate information.  I was one of the few people that was actually part of the conversation, not a third party hearing it from my buddies after the fact.  I am a CAP officer and a law enforcement officer involved in aviation.  I happen to live in both worlds.  So if you want to talk about having no axe to grind I'd say I qualify.  Nobody heard him identify himself as a Deputy because he never did.  I was with him from the moment he landed until the time he took off.  I apparently dont qualify as one of the parties present who witnessed any statements. 

--And for all his effort he was met with Response #46 http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2967.40

--In doing so a piece of equipment far superior to the Cessna 182 left the search area that is now into its second week.

[Skyray]

In another thread I commented that I was a Mission Coordinator.  You have no idea how many nuts come out of the woodwork on a search mission.  The higher the mission profile, the more and wilder the nuts.  The fact that you had a valuable asset to offer, and you got caught in the Nut Net is regrettable.  The Ops officer of the mission base posted, and if you haven't read it, you should go back and do so.  If you have read it and are still incensed, I would suggest you join CAP and get some credentials that the ops officer will credit.

[Major Carrales]

In another thread I commented that I was a Mission Coordinator.  You have no idea how many nuts come out of the woodwork on a search mission.  The higher the mission profile, the more and wilder the nuts.  The fact that you had a valuable asset to offer, and you got caught in the Nut Net is regrettable.  The Ops officer of the mission base posted, and if you haven't read it, you should go back and do so.  If you have read it and are still incensed, I would suggest you join CAP and get some credentials that the ops officer will credit.

There are some insurance and liability issues that come into play when on CAP missions...especially USAF assigned ones.

However, ICS is a fluid chain of command.  In the various span of control, it is not out of the ordinary for a multi-agency ICS mission to take place.  The result would be that the "Air Branch" could contain non-CAP assets under the the Control on a CAP Air Branch Director.

This is something that the planning section must deal with early on.  If we are on a CAP Mission being run in the ICS format exclusively.  In this case, a non-CAP asset would not and should not fall under the veil of CAP.

What is the ICS structure like in this search?   Is it multi-agency or is it all CAP? That makes a bit of difference.

I am prepared to clarify my points if need be...

[Civilian_Pilot]

In another thread I commented that I was a Mission Coordinator.  You have no idea how many nuts come out of the woodwork on a search mission.  The higher the mission profile, the more and wilder the nuts.  The fact that you had a valuable asset to offer, and you got caught in the Nut Net is regrettable.  The Ops officer of the mission base posted, and if you haven't read it, you should go back and do so.  If you have read it and are still incensed, I would suggest you join CAP and get some credentials that the ops officer will credit.

How many nuts show up in Hughes 500 Helicopters equipped with FLIR?

[Major Carrales]

In another thread I commented that I was a Mission Coordinator.  You have no idea how many nuts come out of the woodwork on a search mission.  The higher the mission profile, the more and wilder the nuts.  The fact that you had a valuable asset to offer, and you got caught in the Nut Net is regrettable.  The Ops officer of the mission base posted, and if you haven't read it, you should go back and do so.  If you have read it and are still incensed, I would suggest you join CAP and get some credentials that the ops officer will credit.

How many nuts show up in Hughes 500 Helicopters equipped with FLIR?

True, but  established precedures must be followed.  It is when these procedures break down that everything from safety to mission planning is threatened.

[Skyray]

The answer to your question is that you would be amazed.  I am not saying that you didn't offer a valuable asset, and had I been Ops, I would have likely accepted it.  But CAP is a bureaucracy, and it is not so simple; there are T's to be crossed, and I's to be dotted.  Perhaps Ops was overstressed at that point and didn't feel that utilizing the asset was worth the problems associated with it.  As Major Carrales pointed out, insurance and reimbursement are only part of it.

[Civilian_Pilot]

True, but  established procedures must be followed.  It is when these procedures break down that everything from safety to mission planning is threatened.

OK fair enough.  I guess my real question is why a single individual from CAP was allowed to procedure to breakdown in such an offensive manner that even CAP members who were wittiness were taken aback by the callousness of it?

And I ask this for only one reason.  This event was not training.  It was/is an actual search and rescue.  It all looks very counter-productive to the recovery of the lost party.

[Skyray]

Truth be known, that individual may have done you a favor.  I presume that you wanted to get reimbursed for your gas and oil.  Let me tell you a funny story about how CAP works. I am treading close to the line here, so bear with me.  In 1996 I was in a group that was out of favor with the wing commander and he had taken away our airplane.  The Mission Coordinator called me up with an emergency search and wanted to use mine.  I explained to him the status of my aircraft as not being a CAP aircraft, and he said he was using his authority as a Mission Coordinator to requisition the aircraft.  I assembled a crew, and flew several hours of search over the everglades.  Fuel came to something over six hundred dollars, and I submitted receipts and a claim.  The claim was denied because there was a CAP asset available.  I never did get paid.  So did you want to finance your sortie out of Minden?

[Major Carrales]

True, but  established procedures must be followed.  It is when these procedures break down that everything from safety to mission planning is threatened.

OK fair enough.  I guess my real question is why a single individual from CAP was allowed to procedure to breakdown in such an offensive manner that even CAP members who were wittiness were taken aback by the callousness of it?

And I ask this for only one reason.  This event was not training.  It was/is an actual search and rescue.  It all looks very counter-productive to the recovery of the lost party.

My primary duty in CAP at this point is Command of my local unit, however, I am a Public Affaris Officer and, ultmately later on, a Mission Information Officer.  I understand the need to improve all contact with the general public and individuals.

Some of our number demonstrate certain character flaws that are...disheartening at best and problematic at worse.  I have been at the meetings where grandiose displays of THREATRICS have resulted from personality conflits.  It is distasteful and counter productive.

[Civilian_Pilot]

True, but  established procedures must be followed.  It is when these procedures break down that everything from safety to mission planning is threatened.

OK fair enough.  I guess my real question is why a single individual from CAP was allowed to procedure to breakdown in such an offensive manner that even CAP members who were wittiness were taken aback by the callousness of it?

And I ask this for only one reason.  This event was not training.  It was/is an actual search and rescue.  It all looks very counter-productive to the recovery of the lost party.

My primary duty in CAP at this point is Command of my local unit, however, I am a Public Affaris Officer and, ultmately later on, a Mission Information Officer.  I understand the need to improve all contact with the general public and individuals.

Some of our number demonstrate certain character flaws that are...disheartening and best and problematic at worse.  I have been at the meetings where grandiose displays of THREATRICS have resulted from personality conflits.  It is distasteful and counter productive.

Thank you for your honest response.

I think all organization have "hot shots".  I suppose what upset me so much was the SEARCH & RESCUE aspect as opposed to a more benign endeavor like flipping burgers.

I don't think individuals on power trips realize how much they hurt an organization both on the inside and outside.

[JayT]

What did I miss?

[Pylon]

OK fair enough.  I guess my real question is why a single individual from CAP was allowed to procedure to breakdown in such an offensive manner that even CAP members who were wittiness were taken aback by the callousness of it?

And I ask this for only one reason.  This event was not training.  It was/is an actual search and rescue.  It all looks very counter-productive to the recovery of the lost party.

FYI -- this is the best way I've seen the question asked.  Kudos for sticking around with the intent to constructivly approach the problem.  I hope maybe we can develop some better answers.

Personally, I think we need to develop official guidance on employing volunteer air, ground, and mission base assets from outside of CAP -- that means procedures for assets we request, assets from other local organizations, and assets from volunteers and community members who offer assistance.

It probably would take some time, and require assistance of CAP Legal to pound out things like liability issues, but it's well worth it to have such guidance established for mission coordinators and ICs going forward.

[Civilian_Pilot]

OK fair enough.  I guess my real question is why a single individual from CAP was allowed to procedure to breakdown in such an offensive manner that even CAP members who were wittiness were taken aback by the callousness of it?

And I ask this for only one reason.  This event was not training.  It was/is an actual search and rescue.  It all looks very counter-productive to the recovery of the lost party.

FYI -- this is the best way I've seen the question asked.  Kudos for sticking around with the intent to constructively approach the problem.  I hope maybe we can develop some better answers.

Personally, I think we need to develop official guidance on employing volunteer air, ground, and mission base assets from outside of CAP -- that means procedures for assets we request, assets from other local organizations, and assets from volunteers and community members who offer assistance.

It probably would take some time, and require assistance of CAP Legal to pound out things like liability issues, but it's well worth it to have such guidance established for mission coordinators and ICs going forward.

I suppose this morning I am even more amazed and sad considering this:

http://www.stevefossett.com/

There is now an open call for turbine powered helicopters to come in and handle the search.

Before I make the next statement I want everyone to again know I only found/joined this website to discuss one particular incident that I read occurred on this website during the search.

Given that the search has gone on now nearly two weeks, the above mentioned incident, and now the general call for turbine helicopters to augment the search, I think the CAP really needs to have a hard look, dissect what was available and how it was used early on,  do a top to bottom evaluation, and make some serious changes.

In addition there needs to be a review/action taken upon the "glory hound" and immature attitudes of some of the membership to either remove them or bring them up to a professional standard.  It seems to me that there are for more of these within the CAP than need be as evidenced during the Fossett search (and even displayed on this website during ongoing discussion).  To be fair, even at my company we have a program to handle these type people.

Lastly, and evaluation of what has gone on is an important part of the actual event.  This search has been for one man in a small airplane.  In the big scheme of things a small event.  If there were a big event, one that truly pulled the CAP to the maximum of its ability, there wouldn't be time to baby-sit the "rouge member" within.  After this search concludes is a perfect time to make some positive corrective actions.

[alamrcn]

Funny how half a dozen individuals' commentary can give you an impression of a 70,000 member organization.

Civilian Pilot:
   If you don't mind, tell us something you DEAPLY care about in your non-professional (job/career) life, other than your family, etc. We know that you are a pilot or at least involved in recreational aviation, so maybe you are a member of EAA or APA?
   I ask this, because I'm sure we can direct you to a website and/or public forum which has disgruntled and possibly negative people with commentaries and editorials of their own on that particular subject.

This forum is like the breakroom at work. If you eavesdrop in on a couple conversations, you are likely to hear a couple people gripping about their boss, their job, or their company. The internet just puts that somewhat personal discussion out on a bullhorn. In most cases, it's not meant to be destructive to anyone or anything - it's just human to blow off some steam.

Plus, humans love Drama and that's what brought you to our forum in the first place. I blame GOOGLE!

-Ace

[Civilian_Pilot]

Funny how half a dozen individuals' commentary can give you an impression of a 70,000 member organization.

Civilian Pilot:
   If you don't mind, tell us something you DEAPLY care about in your non-professional (job/career) life, other than your family, etc. We know that you are a pilot or at least involved in recreational aviation, so maybe you are a member of EAA or APA?
   I ask this, because I'm sure we can direct you to a website and/or public forum which has disgruntled and possibly negative people with commentaries and editorials of their own on that particular subject.

This forum is like the breakroom at work. If you eavesdrop in on a couple conversations, you are likely to hear a couple people gripping about their boss, their job, or their company. The internet just puts that somewhat personal discussion out on a bullhorn. In most cases, it's not meant to be destructive to anyone or anything - it's just human to blow off some steam.

Plus, humans love Drama and that's what brought you to our forum in the first place. I blame GOOGLE!

-Ace

I suppose what we don't agree on is that CAP shouldn't be viewed as a recreational vehicle when they are tasked with saving a human life.

So show me a website disgruntled with something I am involved in and I'll tell you they are opinions.

Here I am talking about decisions.

[Lancer]

I suppose what we don't agree on is that CAP shouldn't be viewed as a recreational vehicle when they are tasked with saving a human life.

So show me a website disgruntled with something I am involved in and I'll tell you they are opinions.

Here I am talking about decisions.

Ok Miss Othmar, are you done yet?

If you're going to continue on this diatribe, tirade, harangue, you should go here, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/capinsights/ and join with the rest of the Namby Pamby's who like to go on and on <insert broken record sound here>  about all the faults in the CAP.

I'm sure Ray Hayden will gladly receive you.

[Civilian_Pilot]

I suppose what we don't agree on is that CAP shouldn't be viewed as a recreational vehicle when they are tasked with saving a human life.

So show me a website disgruntled with something I am involved in and I'll tell you they are opinions.

Here I am talking about decisions.

Ok Miss Othmar, are you done yet?

If you're going to continue on this diatribe, tirade, harangue, you should go here, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/capinsights/ and join with the rest of the Namby Pamby's who like to go on and on <insert broken record sound here>  about all the faults in the CAP.

I'm sure Ray Hayden will gladly receive you.

I don't think there has been any of the above.  I've just tried to have a discussion.

You know, in case you are unaware the CAP is funded by me a taxpayer.  As such I help to foot the bill for all the expensive hardware it's your privilege to operate.

As a working pilot and potential search objective I have a stake in how CAP performs.

It is becoming clear to me that in general CAP members have the idea planted in their head somehow they are above everyone.

I am starting to think that the role/monies CAP receives would be better spent going to the military to fill the role CAP was created for.

I really wonder how the Founders of CAP would view the current attitudes.

[Lancer]

You know, in case you are unaware the CAP is funded by me a taxpayer.  As such I help to foot the bill for all the expensive hardware it's your privilege to operate.

And this makes you different from us how exactly?

As a working pilot and potential search objective I have a stake in how CAP performs.

I've only got one answer for that statement, JOIN and work towards improving what you see as a fault. Armchair Quarterbacking via an internet forum does nothing to improve the situation.

It is becoming clear to me that in general CAP members have the idea planted in their head somehow they are above everyone.

I won't disagree with you there. There are some folks within our organization that believe they are 'the poo', but I can almost guarantee your going to find that just about ANYWHERE!

I am starting to think that the role/monies CAP receives would be better spent going to the military to fill the role for CAP.

Right, after the countless lifesaving missions CAP has performed over the past 65 years, all the youth who have benefited from being a cadet and have moved on to become a Senior Member in our organization to be model citizens, lets just pull the plug now, end it all. That's logic for you.

If you did any research, CAP's budget for one year is a drop in the bucket compared with what the total budget the USAF spends, and the returns they receive on their investment in us is a deal no matter what you or anyone else says about us.

[SDF_Specialist]

It is becoming clear to me that in general CAP members have the idea planted in their head somehow they are above everyone.


I won't disagree with you there. There are some folks within our organization that believe they are 'the poo', but I can almost guarantee your going to find that just about ANYWHERE!

It seems that that is the case in that statement about being a taxpayer. All taxpayers pay a lot of salaries. Does this mean that the firefighters should put the fire out faster? Does this mean that since you pay the salaries of the police, you should not be reprimanded for breaking the law when a police officer pulls you over for speeding? I think not. Civilian_Pilot, why don't you take Lancer's advice? Join, and work in the efforts of correcting the faults of CAP? You seem to be concerned with how the organization is run, and that is the way some actual members feel. But if you don't like an organization, why get on a website that is crawling with its members, and bash it? I don't see the point. Nothing against you, but I'm just tired of everyone bashing CAP, but no one wants to help make it better. They just want to complain about the problems within the organization.

[Civilian_Pilot]

And this makes you different from us how exactly?

I am on the outside looking in.  You're not.  I see a bunch of immature attitudes (including you), grandstanding, power plays.  I also see unwillingness to accept any criticism.  This manifest itself in the rescue of a pilot with the dismissal of assets.  I also see your attitudes destroying public perception of what the CAP is.

Take my word on the last statement.  My view of the CAP has totally soured in the last 48 hours.

I've only got one answer for that statement, JOIN and work towards improving what you see as a fault. Armchair Quarterbacking via an internet forum does nothing to improve the situation.

I see.  Meanwhile here is the solution you suggested to me earlier:

Ok Miss Othmar, are you done yet?

If you're going to continue on this diatribe, tirade, harangue, you should go here, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/capinsights/ and join with the rest of the Namby Pamby's who like to go on and on <insert broken record sound here>  about all the faults in the CAP.

I'm sure Ray Hayden will gladly receive you.

Pretty professional.  I hope you are really proud of that statement when you wear your uniform next time.

I won't disagree with you there. There are some folks within our organization that believe they are 'the poo', but I can almost guarantee your going to find that just about ANYWHERE!

Yes but I have never seen this attitude so top to bottom in any other organization.

Right, after the countless lifesaving missions CAP has performed over the past 65 years, all the youth who have benefited from being a cadet and have moved on to become a Senior Member in our organization to be model citizens, lets just pull the plug now, end it all. That's logic for you.

If you did any research, CAP's budget for one year is a drop in the bucket compared with what the total budget the USAF spends, and the returns they receive on their investment in us is a deal no matter what you or anyone else says about us.

No logic for me is to look at the current situation which is a rotten apple.

You want to rest on the prior 65 years.  Like I said:  The original founders of CAP are rolling in their graves.

[A.Member]

Civilian_Pilot, as was mentioned we too are all taxpayers.  More importantly we are volunteers that put our lives on hold to provide a service to our country so that others may live.  On an average, we save 100 lives per year.  We are not some fly by night organization.  This is not a game to us.  It is extremely serious.  

You can read last year's report to Congress here:
http://www.cap.gov/documents/2006_CAP_Annual_Report_To_Congress_lorespdf.pdf

In another thread, you mentioned that you make your living flying.  So do many of us.  Our members are made up of current and former military, ATP, and GA pilots - many with logbooks that would make your head spin.   We are professionals.  

We understand that you're not happy with the results of the search so far.   However, at the same time you must also acknowledge that you've no real knowledge of what's involved in a SAR mission,  including the other agencies we've partnered with.  You do yourself a real disservice when you continue to criticize on issues to which you are uninformed. 

I'd encourage you to contact your local CAP squadron and get involved with the organization - we're always looking for skilled pilots.  Once you're gained a better understanding of the issues, then we'd love to hear more of your feedback.

[Civilian_Pilot]

It is becoming clear to me that in general CAP members have the idea planted in their head somehow they are above everyone.


I won't disagree with you there. There are some folks within our organization that believe they are 'the poo', but I can almost guarantee your going to find that just about ANYWHERE!

It seems that that is the case in that statement about being a taxpayer. All taxpayers pay a lot of salaries. Does this mean that the firefighters should put the fire out faster? Does this mean that since you pay the salaries of the police, you should not be reprimanded for breaking the law when a police officer pulls you over for speeding? I think not.

This is the most ridiculous statement I have read.

I haven't seen anyone (including myself) claim that by being a taxpayer that CAP should conduct faster, quicker, or make "certain people" special cases as you state above.

What I did state is that given the immature attitudes, fiefdoms, power grabs, poor leadership that the tax monies might be better spent by giving them to the military to perform the CAP role.

YOUR ORGANIZATION IS BROKE.  FIX IT.

Civilian_Pilot, why don't you take Lancer's advice? Join, and work in the efforts of correcting the faults of CAP? You seem to be concerned with how the organization is run, and that is the way some actual members feel. But if you don't like an organization, why get on a website that is crawling with its members, and bash it? I don't see the point.

OK I'll give you the point.  Read my prior statements.  I only arrived on this website 48 hours ago simply because I had an interest in how the Fossett search was going.

48 HOURS AGO.  It's ridiculous for you to be calling for me to jump in and fix things for you.  I find it odd that you are asking someone 48 hours into the situation to fix things for you.

It again emphasises how devoid of leadership this organization really is.

Nothing against you, but I'm just tired of everyone bashing CAP, but no one wants to help make it better. They just want to complain about the problems within the organization.

Sure, well until the membership can take criticism constructively you're doomed.

I didn't take the time to join to pummel CAP.  I came to have a discussion.  It's not me who can't handle it.  It's you.

[DrDave]

Something doesn't smell right here.

This person obviously has some sort of axe to grind with CAP.  Is this a former disgruntled member? 

This person obviously has way too much time on their hands, and you've got to ask "for what purpose"?

Moderators, can we lock this thread?  It's just not going anywhere and devolving into a personal tirade.

Dr. Dave

[Civilian_Pilot]

Something doesn't smell right here.

This person obviously has some sort of axe to grind with CAP.  Is this a former disgruntled member? 

This person obviously has way too much time on their hands, and you've got to ask "for what purpose"?

Moderators, can we lock this thread?  It's just not going anywhere and devolving into a personal tirade.

Dr. Dave

Tell you what Dr. Dave

I have no axe to grind.  I have only engaged in discussion with matters brought up by the membership.

I only wanted to discuss the helicopter incident and it has spriraled into this.

If you want me to fix the organization PM me and get me in contact with the local chapter and give me some introduction and credibility.

I'll do it.

If you lock the thread you once again bury your head into the sand.

[DrDave]

I am very happy to PM you to help you find a local chapter so you can see, perhaps, how much more CAP has to offer.

Dr. Dave

[Chaplaindon]

Fellow RV-er's ...

As a chaplain, and therein an officially designated "non-combattant" I beg you all for a truce ...

Let's admit it now, we've been bested by the best. German U-Boats couldn't get to CAP, but CivilianPilot has scored a direct "hit" on us all. It's bail-out time.

A collective cry of "uncle" (or, I suppose in our inclusive 21st Century culture, "aunt" as well). He's won.

His rhetoric and logic is unsurpassed and we're wholly unprepared to debate the natter further.

Let's simply return to our RV's and let Mr. Pilot go do what he's obviously qualified to do (unlike anyone Else, e.g. CAP and/or the Nevada ANG) ... let him go and FIND/SAVE Steve Fossett.

Further debate is both Quixotic (we'll never win, admit it, he's simply too smart for us)  and dangerous. It keeps the best of the best professional aviator from flying out to where Civilian Pilot KNOWS where Fossett is and saving him.

CAP, law enforcement, and the Air National Guard have nothing to bring to the table --obviously-- we/they should stand-down at once and yield the search area to CP. We're wasting time.

Besides, as soon as CP finds/saves Fossett he'll single-handedly fly to Waziristan and capture bin Laden, effect real campaign finance reform, then dive the ocean to point-out Atlantis all the while composing his dissertation on the exact type and location of extraterrestrial intelligence.

He's just to good; too smart; too prepared; and too rhetorically gifted for any of us amateurs to tangle with. Our Nation and our world is blessed to have him. Let us give thanks even as we yield the field.

Amen and amen.

[Skyray]

If you lock the thread you once again bury your head into the sand.

Either that, or remove it completely.  Suppressing criticism is not productive.  Responding to, and correcting the discrepancies addressed in criticism is productive.

[Pylon]

Gentlemen, just one note.  The attitudes back and forth here are certainly not enhancing the professional image of Civil Air Patrol members, and doesn't demonstrate much more courtesy than the CAP member in the original situation that generated this inquiry.  Some food for thought.

Since we already have several ongoing threads with productive, and constructive thoughts and ideas being shared on these types of issues, I would suggest participating in those if your true interest is in fixing perceived problems.   No productive and professional criticism is being suppressed.

Attempting to correct somebody's perception of CAP is great, but not if you do it through sarcastic comments or brow beating. 

[Civilian_Pilot]

Fellow RV-er's ...

As a chaplain, and therein an officially designated "non-combattant" I beg you all for a truce ...

Let's admit it now, we've been bested by the best. German U-Boats couldn't get to CAP, but CivilianPilot has scored a direct "hit" on us all. It's bail-out time.

A collective cry of "uncle" (or, I suppose in our inclusive 21st Century culture, "aunt" as well). He's won.

His rhetoric and logic is unsurpassed and we're wholly unprepared to debate the natter further.

Let's simply return to our RV's and let Mr. Pilot go do what he's obviously qualified to do (unlike anyone Else, e.g. CAP and/or the Nevada ANG) ... let him go and FIND/SAVE Steve Fossett.

Further debate is both Quixotic (we'll never win, admit it, he's simply too smart for us)  and dangerous. It keeps the best of the best professional aviator from flying out to where Civilian Pilot KNOWS where Fossett is and saving him.

CAP, law enforcement, and the Air National Guard have nothing to bring to the table --obviously-- we/they should stand-down at once and yield the search area to CP. We're wasting time.

Besides, as soon as CP finds/saves Fossett he'll single-handedly fly to Waziristan and capture bin Laden, effect real campaign finance reform, then dive the ocean to point-out Atlantis all the while composing his dissertation on the exact type and location of extraterrestrial intelligence.

He's just to good; too smart; too prepared; and too rhetorically gifted for any of us amateurs to tangle with. Our Nation and our world is blessed to have him. Let us give thanks even as we yield the field.

Amen and amen.

Got news for you Chaplain

I am not engaged in the search and rescue of Fossett.

Nor have I ever been engaged in the search and rescue of Fossett.

And I will not be engaged in the search and rescue of Fossett.

I do not have better ideas for the rescue of Fossett and I don't have any constructive idea how to enhance the search from Fossett.  (I am smart enough to know that by not using assetes such as Hughs 500 helicopters equipped with FLIR you really have no place being an Ops. Officer.)

In fact I am half the country away from the search and was in Europe for the first week of the search.

However--in the last 48 hours I have peeked through this website at the CAP organization and even you, going by the name "Chaplain", have showcased an arrogant attitude.

[Major Carrales]

However--in the last 48 hours I have peeked through this website at the CAP organization and even you, going by the name "Chaplain", have showcased an arrogant attitude.

If I may be so bold, if you are looking to this forum as a cross-section of the Civil Air Patrol, you have made an error. 

It has been pointed out before that a great many persons on this forum are likely not members, represent different...vastly different...positions about things from uniform issues to emergency services and/or may not represent CAP to the best of their ability.  This forum, and those like it, often times air the "dirty laundry" and "sinister sides of even the most insignificant detail of CAP life as if they are NATIONAL NEWS.

Civilian_Pilot, the following "I told you so" is not for you and I respectfully will address some of your issues below it.  Your comments and preceptions of the last 48 hours, however, are evidence to the reasoning for the scolding below. 

I have often warned against the so called "discussions" where "wild speculation" and "rumor" are vitriolically taken as "facts."  Also against, the meaningless discussions and even open fights that occur.  They are unbecoming.  The usual response to these warnings is normally the chant of "if you don't like it you don't have to read it."  That, however, is not the point at hand, the point is that this forum (although not an OFFICIAL CAP sanctioned forum) is looked at by people seeking info about CAP.

The nature of "INSTANT COURAGE" brought about by anonymous postings of blatantly vitriolic, agendistic and negative comments exasperates the situation. 

In short, there exists a PUBLIC AFFAIRS NIGHTMARE here.

Civilian_Pilot, I should now like to share with you the reason CAP is important...to me.  Maybe you can find a bit more solace here than the bitter dregs of vitriolic attack.  

There is no force more powerfully important, motivated and passionate than the heart of a volunteer...except maybe for a group fo volunteers united in some common goal.  A person that giveth their time for the benefit of their community, state and nation, in many ways, surpasses those that get paid.  How so?  Well, the motivation to serve the community is of a noble chord, more noble than profit. 

We of CAP take time from our families when we serve (albeit family and work must take precedent), not because we want to swagger and command, but because we want to have worth.  CAP is a unique form of service, and the fact that it is service to the community must never be forgotten or replaced with vainglorious theatrics.

No doubt some here today lashed out against you out of passion for CAP, taking you to be some sort of "trouble maker," questioning your motives and, this I believe most, because the nature of this forum is one of attack/defend.  I can tell you that even I am guilty of this.  I admit my faults.

There are times when I feel like I am under a salvo of attacks here...my ideas, my ideals and thing I highly value about.  These things, mocked and made sport of, that (more than once) have been trampled upon merely because some have seen me as "one of us" or "one of them."  These attitude I use to test my resolve and temper my policies for my unit. 

If a person was wrongfully treated at a SARex, a person who could have helped...then that is [darn]able, indeed.   I would likely have tried to explain that the procedure in place would not allow it and that some arrangement would have to be made.  I would also have have been genial, I might even "kill 'em with kindness" as St Anthony Zaccaria (Feast Day July 5...my birthday).  If his resource could not be used by CAP that day in that case, I would refer them to where they might be used.

I should point out that I cannot subscribe to your contention that being a TAX PAYER would give a person free range.  My unit get no direct funding from any other agency, including the USAF, for anything but O-Flights for Cadets, small fuel reimbursements (which most of our unit never take) and the occasional SARex of which we have to drive 200 miles to get to.  Thus, all we have accomplished since 2005, at least, has been with member funds.  Aside from that, my friend, I should think my status as a Tax payer would not get me into "Area 51" nor "a casual walk of the flightline at Lackland."

CAP Officers serve...those that get "power trips" need to remember what their status is.  They should Live to serve...get the privilege of wearing their nation's uniforms and are trusted with the world's largest civilian fleet of aircraft.  

Please, don't grow to hate CAP or become one of its "enemies" because you entertained unfortunate words here.  We don't want you to fix CAP...but we are stronger with you than without.

[Civilian_Pilot]

I should point out that I cannot subscribe to your contention that being a TAX PAYER would give a person free range.

This was not my contention so allow me to clarify.

Taxes are used for many things and we all pay them.  I want the monies to be spent wisely.  If they are going to be used to fund CAP, and CAP decides to use them to create a playground for arrogant attitudes I'd rather the money go to an organization that will utilize them for what they are appropriated for:  SEARCH AND RESCUE.

After you read the above please understand I am not trying to fuel the firestorm going on in the discussion--I am only trying to clarify that by my being a taxpayer does not imply giving me "free range" as you have stated above.

[Major Carrales]

Taxes are used for many things and we all pay them.  I want the monies to be spent wisely.  If they are going to be used to fund CAP, and CAP decides to use them to create a playground for arrogant attitudes I'd rather the money go to an organization that will utilize them for what they are appropriated for:  SEARCH AND RESCUE.

Sir, I am all for a good debate.

I will be the first to say that I detest the "FLIGHT CLUB" units that have existed in CAP.  I believe in the "Whole CAP approach," a movement where all persons join CAP to be of service to the advancement of its three missions.

Emergency Services, Areospace Education and Cadet Programs.  Our funding is minimal for an organization that extends Nation Wide and, frankly, it is seemlingly impossible for an organization like CAP to do what it does with volunteers and its level of funding.   But, the difference is made up in the passion to serve.

I think you have been done a great disservice in how CAP was presented to you.  I apologize on behalf of my Brother and Sister CAP Officers who have done that.

Those that abuse CAP, by treating it as their own personal "playground," "flight club," "dating service" or "fiefdom" have my disrespect and should be driven from the organization.  There is only room here for those wanting to serve the missions of CAP...all else (the rank, the command and so called power) in ancillary.

I would like to invite you to join CAP...a person of your beliefs would grealty serve as an internal watchdog...of the type that has a balancing effect on the organization as a whole.  Plus, I think you will have a lot of fun. 

[Lancer]

Attempting to correct somebody's perception of CAP is great, but not if you do it through sarcastic comments or brow beating. 

Mike, your right, I should have not lashed out at this person in the manner of which I did.

It's simply that, a lot of us, become incensed when a person, uninformed as they might be begins to attack and tear down something we all hold so dear and are passionate about.

Even your keen and insightful replies to this person fell on deaf ears for the most part. I guess even when you try to present things in a common sense and well thought out manner, critics will do nothing but to continue their 'fingers in the ears', belligerent rantings. It's obvious that there is no changing the perception of someone like this, so I'm moving on to green threads as you suggested.

Anyone who continues to try and dissuade this person after this is just blowing a lot of useless 'hot air'.

[Major Lord]

As it seems this dead-horse won't actually die, let me recapitulate my understanding of the events in question.

1) A brand-new anonymous poster presents a story which he apparently has no first hand knowledge of. We are told that a sheriff's department helicopter pilot is treated rudely. As there is only one actual complainant, as discovered in subsequent posts, we may either surmise that the story was related third hand by the complainant, or that the complainant created a new user-ID in order to be able to present unverifiable facts. Many members accept the post at face value, and knowing that CAP people are often rude, it has the ring of truth.

2) The key assertions of the facts brought forth by the primary complainant were as follows: Base personnel were rude to an officially requested asset to the search, that specific frequencies were not provided at his request, and that he was deterred from participating in the search by CAP personnel.

3) Subsequent information presented shows that the helicopter pilot in question flew a marked police helicopter, and identified himself as a police officer, officially requested by Nevada OES, in an unsuccessful attempt to obtain confidential information.

4) CAP does not accept volunteer pilots and assets from its own members, let alone civilian walk-ins, ( or fly-ins) however wonderful their apparent resources. ( and who would not want a well-equipped helicopter?)

5) Other parties with direct knowledge have refuted the initial posting, and its subsequent defense, and it now appears that the pilot in question was a private helicopter, unassigned or subject to the IC system, paid by the Hilton family to conduct independent air ops. Great! I hope if I am ever lost, my family and friends have the resources to pay umpteen million dollars for private pilots, especially those with actual LE and SAR experience. As far as I know there is no legal or ethical reason to deny volunteers or mercenaries the right to conduct their own search, as long as they don't endanger us. CAP does not have a charter to coordinate private aircraft in SAR OPs.

6) Suddenly, ANOTHER new anonymous user pops up in support of the "CAP is just so rude" school of thought. He allegedly represents the very parties the original poster thought might be offended: Members of the public, other aviators, etc. What a remarkable cooincidence!

7) This anonymous user seems to have the ability to look at the membership info, and in some vague way seems to threaten Chaplaindon, leading me to believe that he is a CAP member, perhaps even one in the same with the original poster.

8) Conclusions are premature, but it might be wise to consider that we are dealing with ONE disgruntled CAP member who blew smoke up our skirts about this whole alleged incident. It was easy to assume that one of our own my be guilty of some transgression (although bringing it up during actual Op's to undermine him was a major piece of chicken excrement) Would you give the same consideration to our people in the field that you would give to some anonymous E-Mail provocateurs?

Major Lord

Disabled smileys - MIKE

[Civilian_Pilot]

Attempting to correct somebody's perception of CAP is great, but not if you do it through sarcastic comments or brow beating. 

Mike, your right, I should have not lashed out at this person in the manner of which I did.

It's simply that, a lot of us, become incensed when a person, uninformed as they might be begins to attack and tear down something we all hold so dear and are passionate about.

Even your keen and insightful replies to this person fell on deaf ears for the most part. I guess even when you try to present things in a common sense and well thought out manner, critics will do nothing but to continue their 'fingers in the ears', belligerent rantings. It's obvious that there is no changing the perception of someone like this, so I'm moving on to green threads as you suggested.

Anyone who continues to try and dissuade this person after this is just blowing a lot of useless 'hot air'.

Yet again though you try backhanded browbeating because I called you out.

You have no idea what I think of the CAP members who actually respect the organization and represent it in a positive manner.

Even in this, you "last thought" on the subject is telling on your persona.

[SDF_Specialist]

It is becoming clear to me that in general CAP members have the idea planted in their head somehow they are above everyone.


I won't disagree with you there. There are some folks within our organization that believe they are 'the poo', but I can almost guarantee your going to find that just about ANYWHERE!

It seems that that is the case in that statement about being a taxpayer. All taxpayers pay a lot of salaries. Does this mean that the firefighters should put the fire out faster? Does this mean that since you pay the salaries of the police, you should not be reprimanded for breaking the law when a police officer pulls you over for speeding? I think not.

This is the most ridiculous statement I have read.

I haven't seen anyone (including myself) claim that by being a taxpayer that CAP should conduct faster, quicker, or make "certain people" special cases as you state above.

What I did state is that given the immature attitudes, fiefdoms, power grabs, poor leadership that the tax monies might be better spent by giving them to the military to perform the CAP role.

YOUR ORGANIZATION IS BROKE.  FIX IT.

Civilian_Pilot, why don't you take Lancer's advice? Join, and work in the efforts of correcting the faults of CAP? You seem to be concerned with how the organization is run, and that is the way some actual members feel. But if you don't like an organization, why get on a website that is crawling with its members, and bash it? I don't see the point.

OK I'll give you the point.  Read my prior statements.  I only arrived on this website 48 hours ago simply because I had an interest in how the Fossett search was going.

48 HOURS AGO.  It's ridiculous for you to be calling for me to jump in and fix things for you.  I find it odd that you are asking someone 48 hours into the situation to fix things for you.

It again emphasises how devoid of leadership this organization really is.

Nothing against you, but I'm just tired of everyone bashing CAP, but no one wants to help make it better. They just want to complain about the problems within the organization.

Sure, well until the membership can take criticism constructively you're doomed.

I didn't take the time to join to pummel CAP.  I came to have a discussion.  It's not me who can't handle it.  It's you.

I was not implying that you want us to search faster. I was saying that we are doing what we are trained to do. If you do not like your tax money helping an organization that helps other, by all means leave the country, and your tax money won't fund the organization that you have no clue about.

48 hours, and you think you have the right to complain about how the organization is run, while not being a dues paying member? I strongly encourage you sir to step back, and look at what you've started. If you wanted information about the Fossett search, read the news. Not what is posted by members of an organization that just happens to be involved in something that's peaked your interest.

We can take criticism. Criticism comes with dedication. Can't you see that? We are dedicated members, and you are criticizing it. If you don't think you could handle membership, express that. Don't express your misconceptions about CAP just because you jump on here, and read a few back threads.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do sir, but it is not the members of CAP who are ridiculous, it is you.

[alamrcn]

You were in Europe when this all started? And now your here? Maybe you are a spy, or even a terrorist who is trying to break the resolve of Civil Air Patrol members!!

Of course I am not actually serious.

But then again, I'm just an outsider looking in here. Don't really know you. But I guess I should be able to make an accurate assessment within the last 48 hours of not only yourself, but your friends and family too. Or maybe it is too easy for ALL of us to jump to conclusions here.

I'll bet it was the Helo pilot that was being a jerk, because we in CAP are ALL perfect. But that's just MY opinion on a stupid internet forum, not the actual official opinion of all 70,000 Civil Air Patrol members... or is it.

-Ace

BTW, what takes longer... composing the rebuttals or deciding what text to make bold? I know, unprofessional - dock my pay.

[Civilian_Pilot]

Well Major Lord I can clear up a lot of this for you.  A lot of the confusion is because the original post and questions over what happened were removed by the moderators.

As it seems this dead-horse won't actually die, let me recapitulate my understanding of the events in question.

1) A brand-new anonymous poster presents a story which he apparently has no first hand knowledge of. We are told that a sheriff's department helicopter pilot is treated rudely. As there is only one actual complainant, as discovered in subsequent posts, we may either surmise that the story was related third hand by the complainant, or that the complainant created a new user-ID in order to be able to present unverifiable facts. Many members accept the post at face value, and knowing that CAP people are often rude, it has the ring of truth.

I will state again:  I was in Europe doing my job and when I got home I did an internet search on Fossett ending up on this website.  In doing so I read this thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2967.0

This is the total sum information I have on the incident.

2) The key assertions of the facts brought forth by the primary complainant were as follows: Base personnel were rude to an officially requested asset to the search, that specific frequencies were not provided at his request, and that he was deterred from participating in the search by CAP personnel.

See above

3) Subsequent information presented shows that the helicopter pilot in question flew a marked police helicopter, and identified himself as a police officer, officially requested by Nevada OES, in an unsuccessful attempt to obtain confidential information.

Confidential Information?  Confidential to who?  The general public?  This man was asking to join the search; not freelance into it.

4) CAP does not accept volunteer pilots and assets from its own members, let alone civilian walk-ins, ( or fly-ins) however wonderful their apparent resources. ( and who would not want a well-equipped helicopter?)

Well this is a mistake in this search and rescue and every search and rescue.  Understand:  I am not talking about having to use every walk-in but when they can operate and offer superior equipment than the CAP has running them off is a real mistake.

5) Other parties with direct knowledge have refuted the initial posting, and its subsequent defense, and it now appears that the pilot in question was a private helicopter, unassigned or subject to the IC system, paid by the Hilton family to conduct independent air ops. Great! I hope if I am ever lost, my family and friends have the resources to pay umpteen million dollars for private pilots, especially those with actual LE and SAR experience. As far as I know there is no legal or ethical reason to deny volunteers or mercenaries the right to conduct their own search, as long as they don't endanger us. CAP does not have a charter to coordinate private aircraft in SAR Ops.

I'll tell you what, if you're that worried and have such an "endangering us" attitude maybe CAP isn't for you.  If I were lost I would have absolutely no problem with a private helicopter equipped with FLIR being brought into a search.

I also want to remind you that in a search time is critical.  This search is now two weeks old.

6) Suddenly, ANOTHER new anonymous user pops up in support of the "CAP is just so rude" school of thought. He allegedly represents the very parties the original poster thought might be offended: Members of the public, other aviators, etc. What a remarkable cooincidence!

No idea what you are talking about but I do want to point out that the CAP is in a highly public search.  It's on CNN.  As such you would think that ALL CAP members would recognize that people like myself, people who never really knew of the CAP will be visiting the organization through the papers, internet, television.  And they will walk away with a perception of the organization.

Some will find this website like myself and from an opinion.

7) This anonymous user seems to have the ability to look at the membership info, and in some vague way seems to threaten Chaplaindon, leading me to believe that he is a CAP member, perhaps even one in the same with the original poster.

I have never been a member of CAP or participated in any CAP activity although I have seen them around airshows etc...

8 ) Conclusions are premature, but it might be wise to consider that we are dealing with ONE disgruntled CAP member who blew smoke up our skirts about this whole alleged incident. It was easy to assume that one of our own my be guilty of some transgression (although bringing it up during actual Op's to undermine him was a major piece of chicken excrement) Would you give the same consideration to our people in the field that you would give to some anonymous E-Mail provocateurs?

Major Lord

Nope Major, I'll tell you who you are dealing with:

Nothing but a Civilian Pilot with the following.

--B.S. Aerospace Engineering

--MEL Airline Transport Pilot

--SEL Commercial/Instrument

--F/E Turbojet

--Type Ratings:  SA-227 B-737 B-727 MD-11

--CFI CFII MEI

I have operated in most countries of the world so I know a little more about emergency , intercept, international operations than the average person or even pilot.

Again my only interest was seeing the latest information on Fossett.

I hope this clears it up for you.

[Civilian_Pilot]

You were in Europe when this all started? And now your here? Maybe you are a spy, or even a terrorist who is trying to break the resolve of Civil Air Patrol members!!

Of course I am not actually serious.

But then again, I'm just an outsider looking in here. Don't really know you. But I guess I should be able to make an accurate assessment within the last 48 hours of not only yourself, but your friends and family too. Or maybe it is too easy for ALL of us to jump to conclusions here.

I'll bet it was the Helo pilot that was being a jerk, because we in CAP are ALL perfect. But that's just MY opinion on a stupid internet forum, not the actual official opinion of all 70,000 Civil Air Patrol members... or is it.

-Ace

BTW, what takes longer... composing the rebuttals or deciding what text to make bold? I know, unprofessional - dock my pay.

Please see above^^^

[Civilian_Pilot]

I was not implying that you want us to search faster. I was saying that we are doing what we are trained to do. If you do not like your tax money helping an organization that helps other, by all means leave the country, and your tax money won't fund the organization that you have no clue about.

And again--I read what you said and implied.

I will again state:  If all the CAP wants to do is Kingdom build and make "little princes" yes--I want my monies going to another place that will focus on the mission of SEARCH & RESCUE.

48 hours, and you think you have the right to complain about how the organization is run, while not being a dues paying member? I strongly encourage you sir to step back, and look at what you've started. If you wanted information about the Fossett search, read the news. Not what is posted by members of an organization that just happens to be involved in something that's peaked your interest.

Don't be so surprised.  If it were not for the Fossett search I would have never looked on this forum.  I would not have been interested in what the CAP was up to. 

48 hours and an interest in the Fossett search has turned into my total bafflement of what exactly the CAP has been up to.

We can take criticism. Criticism comes with dedication. Can't you see that? We are dedicated members, and you are criticizing it. If you don't think you could handle membership, express that. Don't express your misconceptions about CAP just because you jump on here, and read a few back threads.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do sir, but it is not the members of CAP who are ridiculous, it is you.

Brilliant.

[SDF_Specialist]

I was not implying that you want us to search faster. I was saying that we are doing what we are trained to do. If you do not like your tax money helping an organization that helps other, by all means leave the country, and your tax money won't fund the organization that you have no clue about.

And again--I read what you said and implied.

I will again state:  If all the CAP wants to do is Kingdom build and make "little princes" yes--I want my monies going to another place that will focus on the mission of SEARCH & RESCUE.

48 hours, and you think you have the right to complain about how the organization is run, while not being a dues paying member? I strongly encourage you sir to step back, and look at what you've started. If you wanted information about the Fossett search, read the news. Not what is posted by members of an organization that just happens to be involved in something that's peaked your interest.

Don't be so surprised.  If it were not for the Fossett search I would have never looked on this forum.  I would not have been interested in what the CAP was up to. 

48 hours and an interest in the Fossett search has turned into my total bafflement of what exactly the CAP has been up to.

We can take criticism. Criticism comes with dedication. Can't you see that? We are dedicated members, and you are criticizing it. If you don't think you could handle membership, express that. Don't express your misconceptions about CAP just because you jump on here, and read a few back threads.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do sir, but it is not the members of CAP who are ridiculous, it is you.

Brilliant.

Thank you for your compliment on my brilliance sir. It's always nice to be flattered once in a while. Our mission is search and rescue. It is ot to distribute information that we have been instructed by the AF to keep quiet for legal reasons. There are rules that have to be followed as I'm sure that you're aware of. If you want more information than what you have found here, then by all mean explore other sources. I'm sorry you haven't found our organization to be spewing personal information helpful.

[Civilian_Pilot]

If you want more information than what you have found here, then by all mean explore other sources. I'm sorry you haven't found our organization to be spewing personal information helpful.

I wasn't looking for personal information.

I don't want personnel information.

My questions were about a situation discussed on a public forum.

I raised a few issues and now you try to misconstrue what I have said OR you are making statements without reading what I have asked.

[Major Lord]

Civilian Pilot,

Your rebuttal to my post make it clear that you have no regard for CAP regulations. Thats fine, because you are not subject to them. There are many regulations CAP has that many of us us disagree with ( including the non-use of helicopters, prohibitions on providing medical aid, etc.) We however, are subject to the rules. Although inviting qualified pilots to throw in with us on searches may be a peachy idea, we don't have the authority to do it. We work for the USAF on assigned missions and don't break rules just because it seems like it might be a good idea.  This thread did not arise because you or others are unhappy with the limitations placed on CAP by law, regulation, MOU's, etc., but because someone tried to BS the group with a pack of lies about a non-incident.

You will notice in my posts, that I use my name. I assume that anyone that wishes to remain anonymous should expect that his observations will be taken with a grain of salt, and their motivations questioned.

Your published list of credentials is impressive. Why don't you join CAP and we can come to terms with you on what we do, and what we don't do?

Major Lord

[Civilian_Pilot]

Civilian Pilot,

Your rebuttal to my post make it clear that you have no regard for CAP regulations.

You don't know what my reguard for CAP regulations are.

Thats fine, because you are not subject to them. There are many regulations CAP has that many of us us disagree with ( including the non-use of helicopters, prohibitions on providing medical aid, etc.) We however, are subject to the rules. Although inviting qualified pilots to throw in with us on searches may be a peachy idea, we don't have the authority to do it.

Right.  OK .  The specific incident I am speaking of the pilot did introduce himself to the Ops instead of launching into the search area on his own.  You were the one lecturing me on "safety".  I know what "safety" is.  This guy did everything correctly in how he approached the search and CAP.

If you go read the locked thread about the incident your own CAP people who observed it were even shocked at how rudely this person was treated.

When he left he took an asset far superior to the Cessna 182 the CAP is conducting the search.

The most telling thing is now the search is asking for turbine helicopters to come in and conduct the search.

Even if you can't admit it to yourself CAP really dropped the ball.

We work for the USAF on assigned missions and don't break rules just because it seems like it might be a good idea.  This thread did not arise because you or others are unhappy with the limitations placed on CAP by law, regulation, MOU's, etc., but because someone tried to BS the group with a pack of lies about a non-incident.

Also--one of your own CAP personnel was with him the entire time and stated here on this forum that the individual never identified himself as law enforcement.

You will notice in my posts, that I use my name. I assume that anyone that wishes to remain anonymous should expect that his observations will be taken with a grain of salt, and their motivations questioned.

Your published list of credentials is impressive. Why don't you join CAP and we can come to terms with you on what we do, and what we don't do?

Major Lord

Frankly I don't need to join it so "we can come to terms with you on what we do, and what we don't do?"

In fact--this forum would be perfect for that endeavor except from what I experienced here most of the CAP membership is to immature to do so.

The shame is I am certain there are some very good people within CAP who get fed up an leave--only allowing the "glory hounds" to climb higher.

One simple statement by a CAP member in the Fossett search which was the reason I joined this forum:

According to what I see here, many non-posters agree with some of you that I was wrong in the way I handled this situation. Since none of you seem to have the courage to confront me directly, then I will say I really don't care how you feel about it. If you don't like me or my style, you are cordially invited to not participate in future events where I am involved.

The funny things is after interecting with you as a group, any of you could have made it.

[alamrcn]

"Deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that search... you NEED me on that search!"

If an entire thread was removed, it was because something was said by someone (member or non-member) that shouldn't have been... or at least not yet, till this thing has ended.

I respect the judgements of the moderators here, and don't feel that any of them would react in an irrational manor or act in personal malice toward an individual poster. They are actually pretty lenient and let a lot of threads work themselves out... such as this one.

I wish I had seen the original thread before it was removed. IF the subject matter was in good taste, and of a matter that is suitable for public discussion here.... POST IT AGAIN. I would ask ALL of the posters here to respond to the thread with the best of intensions and for the benefit of the topic at hand - not the destruction of it or to defame someone or something.

Let's get on with normal business already.

- Ace

[Eclipse]

"Deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that search... you NEED me on that search!"

...awesome

[Larry Mangum]

As an Incident Commander, I have been on many searches where private pilots have volunteered themselves and their aircraft to assist the search and they are always turned down.

Why? The majority of them are not trained for search nor or their aircraft equipped for communicating with the Highbird or mission base or they are not qualified to fly at the altitudes we search at in the mountains. Flying contour searches in the mountains is a heck of a lot more taxing then performing a grid search in the flatlands. Mountains have their own complex weather system they and the weather can change in a heartbeat.

Yes the Hilton ranch has put out a call for turbine helicopters and are in fact trying to hire QUALIFED Mountain pilots to do so.   I am more then willing to bet that the aircraft and planes the Hilton ranch is hiring are not being tasked or managed by CAP. 

The ICS system was also mentioned in a couple of the posts and I in Washington we particpate in joint command searches all the time with assets from multiple SAR groups being present and tasked. In a situation such as that CAP is just one of assest available to the State SAR coordinator and while I may be the CAP Agency Liaison I might also be the Operations Section Chief and task WASAR to fly a grid, but just like in CAP, they flight realease their own assets.  So it would not be unusual to turn away a pilot and send him to another group which might be able to use him.

[pixelwonk]

IF the subject matter was in good taste, and of a matter that is suitable for public discussion here.... POST IT AGAIN.

I wouldn't recommend reposting locked or removed threads.


To all,
this thread is going nowhere fast, and is just plain bitter.
Cool down. Take things to PM. Don't feed the trolls.
Or... we can just lock this one up too.

[SDF_Specialist]

IF the subject matter was in good taste, and of a matter that is suitable for public discussion here.... POST IT AGAIN.

I wouldn't recommend reposting locked or removed threads.


To all,
this thread is going nowhere fast, and is just plain bitter.
Cool down. Take things to PM. Don't feed the trolls.
Or... we can just lock this one up too.

Tedda, locking sounds good. This is honestly getting nowhere fast, or positive. Just a suggestion.

[Civilian_Pilot]

As an Incident Commander, I have been on many searches where private pilots have volunteered themselves and their aircraft to assist the search and they are always turned down.

Why? The majority of them are not trained for search nor or their aircraft equipped for communicating with the Highbird or mission base or they are not qualified to fly at the altitudes we search at in the mountains. Flying contour searches in the mountains is a heck of a lot more taxing then performing a grid search in the flatlands. Mountains have their own complex weather system they and the weather can change in a heartbeat.

Yes the Hilton ranch has put out a call for turbine helicopters and are in fact trying to hire QUALIFED Mountain pilots to do so.   I am more then willing to bet that the aircraft and planes the Hilton ranch is hiring are not being tasked or managed by CAP. 

The ICS system was also mentioned in a couple of the posts and I in Washington we particpate in joint command searches all the time with assets from multiple SAR groups being present and tasked. In a situation such as that CAP is just one of assest available to the State SAR coordinator and while I may be the CAP Agency Liaison I might also be the Operations Section Chief and task WASAR to fly a grid, but just like in CAP, they flight realease their own assets.  So it would not be unusual to turn away a pilot and send him to another group which might be able to use him.

Well I would hope that the Hilton Ranch would co-ordinate with the CAP.

I do think a disjointed search with people going any direction they want is almost as bad as no search.

[Civilian_Pilot]

Tedda, locking sounds good. This is honestly getting nowhere fast, or positive. Just a suggestion.

Really?  To me it appears this thread has taken a real positive note with the exception of a few people like yourself.

In my opinion locking it would only increase the interst and tone of how the CAP members are acting.

[JayT]

Look, if you get lossed, we'll come and find you.

Other then that, unless you join our organization, I have trouble listerning to your repeated attacks on us.

[Civilian_Pilot]

Look, if you get lossed, we'll come and find you.

Other then that, unless you join our organization, I have trouble listerning to your repeated attacks on us.

Repeated attacks??

I have not "attacked" the CAP. 

Can you not read how the CAP members have responded to me? 

What you have trouble listening to is rebuttal to the immature opinion from CAP members.

Think about it.

[A.Member]

Civilian_Pilot:

While some of your comments in reference to "personalities" certainly may have merit, other comments are equally misplaced.  You seem like an intelligent person.  This is why I find it all the more puzzling that you'd continue a display of broad generalizations and blind criticisms of this organization, SAR procedures, and even the particular incident you continue to bring up.

The liability issue was explained in another thread.  It probably doen't need to be reiterated here.  Nonetheless, as a pilot, you should understand that the most demanding flying takes place at the edge of any performance envelope.  Our flights occur in the most demanding conditions.  We are "low and slow" – average 1000' ft AGL, 90 KTS – and typically heavy with a crew of 3 or 4 plus equipment.   This must be done at precise altitudes with precise track spacing, despite winds and other factors (in this case, mountain flying may be an example of one such added component).  We do this because flying over a piece of real estate at 4000' ft and 200 KTS isn't going to find anything.  Given the critical nature of this flying, we must ensure our pilots are capable of consistently performing safely and effectively.  Thus, they all go through a checkride process.  We can't possibly do this with every person that shows up at mission base in a GA aircraft.  In addition, because safety is a primary concern, the pilot only flies the aircraft.  A trained aircrew performs the actual search/observation.  The call for additional pilots is coming from Flying M, not CAP, for this very logical reason.

But all that is kind of beside the point.  You really seem to be hung up on this one helicopter with FLIR.  Neither that helo nor it's FLIR system are the end all, beat all when it comes to SAR.  And here's where your ignorance of the situation gets the best of you.  You admittedly aren't familiar with SAR, you've never visited a mission base – in particular this one, and you apparently haven't taken the time to familiarize yourself with the assets that are being utilized in this search (or you're choosing to ignore them for some reason).  Thus, consider the following partial list of deployed SAR assets as it relates to this particular mission:

·   Numerous CAP Cessna 172 and 182's equipped with fully SAR qualified aircrews and equipment, including digital imaging.
·   CAP GA-8 equipped with ARCHER
·   OH-58 and HH-60 (NG) (helicopters!)
·   Two  C-130's (NG) – at least one of which is equiped with thermal imaging (ie. FLIR!)
·   RADAR technician support from the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES - USAF)
·   Numerous aircraft and watercraft from law enforcement agencies (including CHP and Sheriff's departments)
·   CAP SAR qualified ground crews

More info:
http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/media_center/press_releases/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6194&newsID=3474&year=2007&month=9
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123066968
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123067178
http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/national_media_coverage.cfm

Based on this, I suspect that you can look back objectively, see the ignorance in a number of your own statements, and realize that some of your criticism is certainly misplaced.  Obviously, plenty of mud has been slung here.  Given this, seems we'd all be well served to step away from the keyboard for a bit.

[JCJ]

IF the subject matter was in good taste, and of a matter that is suitable for public discussion here.... POST IT AGAIN.

I wouldn't recommend reposting locked or removed threads.


To all,
this thread is going nowhere fast, and is just plain bitter.
Cool down. Take things to PM. Don't feed the trolls.
Or... we can just lock this one up too.

Tedda, locking sounds good. This is honestly getting nowhere fast, or positive. Just a suggestion.

Agree.

[addo1]

People, we ALL need to look back on the CAP core values.  If anything we post violates these, then we should not post it.  That includes personal attacks.

[Civilian_Pilot]

This is a recent reply to another thread.  I have quoted it out of the other thread to insert it here:

I have faced this issue many times.  My initial response is to welcome the friends and family into the command post.  We explain what we are doing, and what resources are being deployed to find their loved one.  I then ask for their input.  i ask them to identify areas that they are concerned about searching.  I take that information, and I write assignments form it.  

If they continue to insist on searching I would explain our primary ops area, and ask that they keep a safe operating radius from our crews.  I take the the opportunity to show off our communications, our resource tracking, and our accountability systems.  

If after that I would identify areas that we are currently not searching and I would ask them to contain their activities to a designated region with specific ingress, and egress routes.  

If they persis I would only then impose the TFR,

If they still impose, I would finally get law enforcement involved, and Yes I have had a family member taken into custody.

It is by far the most intelligent response I have read.

I hope the person above who made it is in some sort of leadership position within the CAP because the CAP needs people like him who can manage a situation that creates positive results for every party involved instead of alienating them.

In doing so CAP won't have to grandstand for respect.  They will earn it.

The person who wrote the above through his actions as outlined would demonstrate real leadership qualities--and in high stress situations leadership has to start at the top and then filter down through the ranks.  It's called leadership through example.

[DrDave]

Again, Civilian_Pilot's posts just don't smell right. 

There's some sort of other agenda at work here -- i.e. comments about CAP leadership starting at the top, organizational morale, making assumptions about the entire organization based on an unofficial listserve that includes non-CAP members, very broad brush strokes indeed ...

Plus, as a private pilot, how come he has all this time to waste on CAPtalk over the last 48 hours plus?  Are the opinions from this listserve really that important to him versus everything he did prior to the last 48 hours?  You have to ask, for what purpose is he posting here, and continuing to post ad nauseum the same thing over and over and over again (nice use of BOLD however).  For what purpose?  Why is he trying to score points so heavily?  Score points for who?

I sent him the contact info for several squadrons around his zip code via PM.

Therefore, Civilian_Pilot, I respectfully request you put down your keyboard, step away from the computer, and go to one meeting each of the six or seven squadrons near to you.  Only then, will you begin to get any real idea of what CAP is and what we do for our communities.  You will NOT get an accurate picture of what CAP is from the limited number of posters on this listserve.  The old joke about the different blind men describing an elephant by their limited interaction, comes to mind ...

Moderators, I again ask that this thread be locked.  It serves no useful purpose.

Dr. Dave