ES mission expansion, could Big Blue back us up?

[Walkman]

Snip from another thread:

Only problem is that we have to deal with 52 States/Districts/Territories/Commonwealths, and they all seem to have their own rules that we have to play by.

We've seen & felt this reality in one way or another. Wing X is super active in ES within the state & has integrated well with the other players, while members in Wing Z have layers of dust on their 24 hr packs.

I was wondering if there was a way to leverage our Congressional charter & Auxiliary status some way on the national level to even this out? Obviously when FEMA rolls into town, they've got some clout to call shots. Likewise, the AFRCC is coordinating rescue assets for all states, whether the mission involves ANG, us or Coast Guard.

This could be a pipe-dream, but I just think there has to be a way to put us in a more central 'federal" (for lack of a better word) position. There's too many un-used assets within our ranks.

[JeffDG]

That could well backfire.

Local folks tend to guard their turf rather jealously, and a hint that we're trying to get the feds to throw weight around could well make it worse for us.

Generally speaking (of course there are exceptions), the feds have to be invited in by the state, and in many states, the state has to be invited in by the county.

[PHall]

Oh yeah, making us "Federal" guys would help out a lot . . . . NOT!

Forcing us down the local agencies throats because we're "Federal" would result in a lot more bruised egos and no work for us.

[lordmonar]

The fix is simple in concept.....but hard in execution.

We already have a frame work for "normal" ES operations.   

What has to happen is the wing ES director has to meet with his state and major county level ES managers and make changed to our way of doing business to meet their needs and requirements.

Like I said....that sounds simple....but it takes a lot of time and effort to make it happen.

Too often it is just "simpler" to do our own thing and then complain about not getting called.  Or having to deal with how some CAP guy 10 years ago poisoned the well.

And here we are.  Those wings that have made good connections and maintain those connections at the state and county level....get the call and have a lot of ES activity.   Those that don't......don't get called.

[Eclipse]

We're already "Federal", that's part of the problem, actually.

State and local agencies aren't even required to consider Federal assistance if they don't want it.

The answer is in the local squadrons and groups making ongoing persistent contacts, underselling and over delivering,
and as part of that, bringing our Federal resources and contacts with us.

[Eclipse]

The fix is essentially the same as the business plan for a new start up.

Who, What, Where, When, How.

Look around and ask...

"Who needs help?"

"What Do They Need?"  (And can we provided it?)

"Where are they and where are we?"

"When will they call us?"

"How will we provide the help, including paying for it?"

I agree that the wing needs to be involved at the state level, but the state EMAs are responding to the
same types of requests we should be - local ones.  When your state and federal agencies get involved it's because
of calls from small agencies or because the number of calls reaches critical mass.

Getting the call directly means you're there from the start.

Just getting from "here" to "steady state" is going to be a multi-year process, and should be coordinated within
the wing and between squadrons to avoid overlap and telling different stories (a big problem in CAP).  When
the scope of the contact exceed the AOR of the echelon involved, you make some calls and go together or
have the next echelon make the contacts until things can be handed off, but ultimately the responsibility is
squarely on the local units, if for no other reason that's where the manpower is.

One of the things we absolutely need to do as part of this assessment is decide who >isn't< our customer,
that's just as important, if not moreso, then who is.

[RiverAux]

I think that the only thing that might help us along those lines is if we were known only as the "Air Force Auxiliary".  I think that would give us a slight increase in credibility and understandability when dealing with locals.  The details of our relationship with the AF are so complicated that trying to explain who the CAP is and how we relate to the AF causes people just to not want to deal with us because they don't understand us. 

Now, that is only a relatively small part of the puzzle, but it is a factor.

[Walkman]

Good stuff, here everyone. I was taking a break at the end of the day while reading the other thread didn't really think long and hard about it before I posted my question.

It really is local, local local isn't it?

[JayT]

Good stuff, here everyone. I was taking a break at the end of the day while reading the other thread didn't really think long and hard about it before I posted my question.

It really is local, local local isn't it?

In the three natural disasters I've been involved with as a paramedic (Irene with a private EMS agency, Sandy with a large hospital based service, and a major blizzard with my full time job at a local Fire Department), I've never had guys with 'FEMA' raid jackets show up and start flashing badges and shouting orders. The emergency management system is, by design, meant to be handled at the lowest level possible. It's only days or longer into an incident, when the local and state systems are overwhelmed or exhausted, that FEMA starts to step in to deploy and/or organize resources on a larger scale.

During the blizzard for example (which I was on duty for something like five straight days for because I physically could not make it home), if you were to show up with a ground team/UDF team, I would be confused to what they were there for. Do they have equipment that can get through heavy snow? Do they have medical training that I recognize (IE, a state agency number and State EMT numbers/ badge numbers)? Or would they just be another resource stuck in the snow. What use are fixed wing aircraft to me when I'm walking to assignments with 70 pounds of equipment because my rig is struck?

[Walkman]

...Or having to deal with how some CAP guy 10 years ago poisoned the well.

I "heard tell" of that kind of thing when I was in another wing. Does anyone have real first hand knowledge of one of these incidents? It almost seems to be like the CAP officer demanding a salute from an AD airman. Lots of the stories in the ether, but no one has ever been there to witness it happening.

It really does boil down to working hard to develop the right relationships at all echelons. I'd bet that there have been some in our ranks that may have perpetuated the "poisoned the well" story as an excuse for not doing the work to build a local relationship.

I'm not denying that it hasn't happened here and there...

[Mitchell 1969]

...Or having to deal with how some CAP guy 10 years ago poisoned the well.

I "heard tell" of that kind of thing when I was in another wing. Does anyone have real first hand knowledge of one of these incidents? It almost seems to be like the CAP officer demanding a salute from an AD airman. Lots of the stories in the ether, but no one has ever been there to witness it happening.

It really does boil down to working hard to develop the right relationships at all echelons. I'd bet that there have been some in our ranks that may have perpetuated the "poisoned the well" story as an excuse for not doing the work to build a local relationship.

I'm not denying that it hasn't happened here and there...

Not first hand, but I have actual second hand from a captain who had to deal with the outfall from a survival class with a "field exercise."  Seems one of the students decided to "impress" everyone by starting a fire and cooking a bird.

Said bird was a pet goose that he strangled, with the girl who owned it discovering the smoke....

[Eclipse]

I do, sadly.

In the ES realm it isn't likely to be about a wives tale regarding saluting or other trivialities like that.

It is almost always either underperforming, and or in a >lot< of cases, the GOBN at it's "best".  One
of CAP's best friends and worst enemies can be someone in a high place.  Take a look at what happened
in IAWG for an example of the risks.

Tromping in the fields may well be a young man's game, but a lot of the 4-letter agencies and local EMAs,
etc., are run by "seasoned" individuals, and in a lot of cases they have a fiefdom to protect. GOB #1
decides he no longer likes GOB#2, and GOB#2 happens to be in CAP, and before you know it
the doors are closed and no one will take your calls.  The issue may have absolutely nothing to
do with CAP, but "I'm not dealing with Jenkins, any more..." (etc.).

Politics, power, and not to mention money.  The unionized members of a department's aviation
unit, for example, aren't necessarily going to be excited when CAP shows up and starts doing
their job for free, even if it's only a tiny piece.  Multiply that times every other local agency with
overtime hours to protect, etc.

Getting people to return your calls is hard enough, getting a meeting is even harder, then you
work for months and years to form a relationship, have some success along the way and then
out of nowhere some misinformed goober shows up in a Whacker Mobile and tries to take
over from the pros and the next thing you know they don't want you around any more.

Then there's the minefield of SAR Councils and non-profits.  Anyone who wants to can print
a business card and call themselves a first responder, but for every legitimate trained and
organized group, there's ten who are either cop groupies who just want to "run with lights"
or "moms who realized they can write off their dog if they take a SAR course and call themselves
a search team".  We get lumped in with both of the latter, and in too many cases they
are looking to attach themselves to our legitimacy as a national organization because they
aren't being taken seriously as individual groups.   There's a >lot< of conferences, breakfasts,
picnics, and other "training" events with a lot of smoke and not much fire.

All of the above, and plenty more, is usually standing between us and missions.

[Private Investigator]

...Or having to deal with how some CAP guy 10 years ago poisoned the well.

I "heard tell" of that kind of thing when I was in another wing. Does anyone have real first hand knowledge of one of these incidents? It almost seems to be like the CAP officer demanding a salute from an AD airman. Lots of the stories in the ether, but no one has ever been there to witness it happening.

I wish it was that light. Saluting whatever.

It is usually lingering and or loitering at a plane crash site. We find it, wait for the authorities to arrive, debrief and leave. But for some reason we have people who want to talk to every deputy that goes on scene, ask when the sheriff will get there and stick around for hours until NTSB gets there.

The other thing is bad judgement. One example is allegedly a GTL had to use a pistol to open a gate while tracking an ELT thru the countryside. That is wrong on how many levels? What do you think the Sheriff and the Highway Patrol thinks of that? 

[sardak]

..Or having to deal with how some CAP guy 10 years ago poisoned the well.

I "heard tell" of that kind of thing when I was in another wing. Does anyone have real first hand knowledge of one of these incidents?

I have had to personally deal with cleaning up these messes, a half dozen times I can immediately recall, in two different wings. Most of them were ground team related, but aircrews and ICs have been at the root of the problem, too.

On to your original question.

Only problem is that we have to deal with 52 States/Districts/Territories/Commonwealths, and they all seem to have their own rules that we have to play by.

There's a reason for this, the US Constitution, but we'll stay at a working level. NASAR, the National Association for Search and Rescue, started out as NASARC, the National Association of Search and Rescue Coordinators. NASARC still lives as the State Search and Rescue Coordinators Council (SSARCC).

SSARCC holds its annual meeting every year in conjunction with NASAR. Invitations are sent out by the AFRCC commander to every Governor and the state SAR coordinators of record for every state. One day of the meeting is presentations by our "federal SAR partners" the Coast Guard, AFRCC, FEMA, National Park Service, CAP (represented by John Desmarais), NOAA, NASA, and sometimes the Canadian National SAR Secretariat, FCC, NORTHCOM or 1st Air Force.

A number of years ago the AFRCC commander was on a push to get SAR done the same way in every state. That commander and his idea are history. The mantra now is "You've seen SAR in one state, you've seen in SAR in one state." There isn't a SAR coordinator or federal SAR partner that wants a one size fits all. Even within states SAR isn't consistent between jurisdictions, nor should it be.

As others have said, the local agencies (including states) ask for federal assistance when they need it. Even after major disasters FEMA doesn't show up uninvited.

I was wondering if there was a way to leverage our Congressional charter & Auxiliary status some way on the national level to even this out?

I'm certain this action would have an effect opposite of that desired.

Likewise, the AFRCC is coordinating rescue assets for all states, whether the mission involves ANG, us or Coast Guard.

Not quite true, but it really doesn't matter in this context. AFRCC only finds assets when asked, and has no operational command or control over the assets it provides. AFRCC's standard presentation includes the line "we ask, not task" resources, including CAP.

Mike

[NIN]

I read this on the way to work (hush!) and a couple things hit me.

1) While Big Momma Blue could certainly provide a little "high cover," as stated it might actually put people off.

2) Since this stuff always starts off as "local," I think the important thing for ANYBODY to do as a CAP ES person in charge (Sq/Group/Wing) is to have local contacts that you cultivate and they understand our capabilities and limitations.

3) I bet a lot of local SAR/government issue with using our services is the "how" for getting us called out.  You call the local SAR team, its a local phone number to the guy in the next town over and they mount up and head out like "Right now."  You call Civil Air Patrol, you need to hit the NOC or AFRCC, etc, and no idea whether you get a SAR team, airplane, aerial recon, etc, or not.  (Imagine if you dialed 911 and it went to Tyndall AFB FL and you got told "Well, we gotta check to see if we can respond to that fire or not.." LOL. You'd be like "What?")

4) We need to keep our knifehands strong on our own people (the aforementioned "whackerness") to keep from being our own worst enemy.  GTs need to be well equipped and professional with a maximum of delivery with a minimum of fuss** (more on that in a minute).  Aircrews need to be able to get eyes on target overhead and deliver their product / services in a timely fashion.  We need to get our product (SAR data, visual intel, etc) to the customer in a time/format that is usable and professional.  Some sloppy guy in a greasy flightsuit with massive BO standing there with an SD card he just ripped out of the camera in the back seat saying "We took these here pitchers,  but I don' know nuttin' 'bout computers, so yeah, I dunno what you can do with this thing..." is NOT helpful to CAP, the customer or the USAF.

If Big Mother Blue could help streamline the "employment process" for requesting, alerting, and deploying CAP resources, that would be great.  The SomeCounty, Kansas emergency manager knows that CAP can provide aerial images, but does he want to call Maxwell/Tyndall just to be told "Well, lets see what we can do?" or "Someone will call you back.." or does he get aerial intel in x hrs with a minimum of hassle?

Heck, I know Eclipse has had this conversation in the past regarding alerting & employment.  If you had a disaster tomorrow, and requested CAP in the first 12 hrs, what are the chances that "follow-on forces" (those not in the immediate vicinity of the affected areas) would be alerted, spooled up and enroute to relieve the forces in place in a reasonable timeframe?  Limited, right?  Use Hurricane Sandy as an example:  How long did it take to get non-NER aircrews ID'd, alerted, briefed, enroute and flying sorties that were producing actionable product for the customer?  Meanwhile, NER folks were flat out killing themselves trying to accomplish the mission while hoping that more bodies were going to arrive.

That shouldn't take a week to ten days to make happen. It should take 2-3 days. 


Regarding incidents that have caused us to "lose credibility" to the local SAR agencies:

I did not live here in the northeast when this happened, so I can only go by what others have told me.  But in my wing, the primary SAR agency is the Department of Fish & Game. They do the initial call out to their people and then to specialized SAR teams (including CAP, when it comes to aviation related stuff or clear places where CAP can contribute).  This is especially true up in the mountains, where Eastern Mountain Sports runs a mountain climbing school and they have a well-supported technical SAR team that can do things like rappelling, winter search, etc. 

CAP was, for a time (and I got this from non-CAP SAR people up here), on the "do not bother to call" list for ground-related searches. This was for a number of reasons: 

• CAP had a rep (rightly or wrongly) that they'd show up with a parallel ICS structure and act like they didn't need to "plug in" to the existing incident structure;
• They'd show up and act like "All the rest of you can go home now, we're on the case" (I've seen that attitude not just up here on SARs), etc;
• Ground teams were woefully underequipped and undertrained for the mountains (ie. they'd roll up in a 12 pax 2WD van with 8 "kids" and one "adult," everybody wearing camouflage cotton uniforms, no technical gear, just ALICE pattern web gear, etc.  An incident manager takes one look at SAR team A, the volunteers who have all their own brightly colored technical gear, clothing, ability to get into the search area, etc, and then SAR team B, the CAP folks who look like their own lost-hiker situation, who probably have to hike 3x as far as the other guys to get to a search area that is not located 200m from a paved road, and don't even have comm gear that allows them to talk to the SAR manager, and they go "Yeah, thanks, but we'll take Team A here...");
• An inability to inter-operate with existing resources (comms & ICS are two areas that come to mind). This is changing, but man, it left a bad taste in a lot of people's minds;

**True Story:  For years after I moved here to the Northeast, we trained and trained and trained during SAREXs and never, ever got a phone call for a "real mission."  Yeah, we'd get the usual ALNOT ramp check, or occasional ELT accidental activation, UDF-style, but no meat & potatoes SAR.  So eventually, people would get disillusioned with ES: "All I do is train, but we never get to use those skills."  I was a GTL and it was a constant battle to keep people motivated to do SAR/DR/ES work, get people to actually respond to alerts, because everybody pretty much knew we were never going to get a phone call for the "big game."

I was semi-active in late 2007 and a hunter went missing in a local state park. Less than six miles from where I lived.  He literally could have gotten lost and walked into the condo complex I lived in, as it backed up to the state park area.  (funny aside, he was related to my ex-wife's family).  I had let my GT quals lapse years before (because we never got called... So much for having 24- and 72-hour packs, right?), so even if CAP got called I wasn't going.

I turn on the TV one night and they're talking about the search and they even mention that CAP is involved.

And they show a shot of searchers standing around in the snow, being briefed by a Fish & Game guy. And there are cadet ground team members! I'm like "YES! FINALLY!" 

Then I notice: they're all wearing ascots, white pistol belts, whistles and I think they even had white laces in their boots.  Nary a field jacket to be found in DECEMBER.  I'm thinking "WHO THE HELL SHOWS UP TO A SAR WEARING AN ASCOT INSTEAD OF A WOOL SCARF?"

It was disheartening to see. Because this is the kind of thing that does not contribute to the team's ability to accomplish the mission, and rather makes us look like clowns to to the folks who do SAR for a living or all the time.

I said it before, but I'll add to it: before Big Mother Blue "backs us," we need to stop being our own worst enemy as far as image, ability, capability and execution goes.

[Jaison009]

All incidents begin and end locally.

Good stuff, here everyone. I was taking a break at the end of the day while reading the other thread didn't really think long and hard about it before I posted my question.

It really is local, local local isn't it?

[Eclipse]

Then I notice: they're all wearing ascots, white pistol belts, whistles and I think they even had white laces in their boots.  Nary a field jacket to be found in DECEMBER.  I'm thinking "WHO THE HELL SHOWS UP TO A SAR WEARING AN ASCOT INSTEAD OF A WOOL SCARF?"

It was disheartening to see. Because this is the kind of thing that does not contribute to the team's ability to accomplish the mission, and rather makes us look like clowns to to the folks who do SAR for a living or all the time.

I said it before, but I'll add to it: before Big Mother Blue "backs us," we need to stop being our own worst enemy as far as image, ability, capability and execution goes.

There it is folks, the above thread, especially the last part, in a handy package.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Then I notice: they're all wearing ascots, white pistol belts, whistles and I think they even had white laces in their boots.  Nary a field jacket to be found in DECEMBER.  I'm thinking "WHO THE HELL SHOWS UP TO A SAR WEARING AN ASCOT INSTEAD OF A WOOL SCARF?"

It was disheartening to see. Because this is the kind of thing that does not contribute to the team's ability to accomplish the mission, and rather makes us look like clowns to to the folks who do SAR for a living or all the time.

I said it before, but I'll add to it: before Big Mother Blue "backs us," we need to stop being our own worst enemy as far as image, ability, capability and execution goes.

There it is folks, the above thread, especially the last part, in a handy package.

But but...the whistle is on the GTM List! And the Belt can be used for gear!

[abdsp51]

But but...the whistle is on the GTM List! And the Belt can be used for gear!

Sarcasm much?  Honestly the way to resolve alot of this stuff is to:

1) Remove rescue from our ES philosophy as we do not rescue anyone.

2) Standardize training and equipment across the board period.

3) Highlight ALL requirements to participate in anything SAR this includes CAP, state, county and if need be city requirements.  (this is a big thing here for a person I know here in Az.)

4) Build, and maintain relationships with the applicable agencies and don't expect wing, region or ma blue to do it. 

5) Provide functional training that is easy to understand and easy to evaluate and streamline the approval process. 

These are not in any particular order justr thoughts and observations.  Having people that are properly trained and competent and looking the part will go along way. 

[JeffDG]

Out of curiosity, has anyone done any kind of "Typed Team" matching to the NIMS team types?

For example, is a GT3 equivalent to at Wilderness SAR IV?
https://www.rkb.us/nimsdetail.cfm?nims_id=183

That type of exercise might be very useful when describing to EMAs what our capabilities are..."Sir, we can deliver 2 Wilderness SAR III teams for you on xx hours notice..." and have that map back to a definition that the customer uses.