Do seniors use grade when speaking to other seniors?

[SARDOC]

It's interesting how the grade is used as a recruiting tool, but no one seems to realize that goes both ways.

I've had more than a few situations where someone with advanced grade were found to be lacking in very basic CAP knowledge on a regular
basis, which isn't the greatest thing for the moral of either the member or those who need to deal with him.

We have so many retired officers in our area...most of them would be eligible for Lieutenant Colonel almost immediately so the group made a requirement that they at least get a specialty track technician rating before we would even submit the paperwork for the advanced grade so hopefully they will have demonstrated a little commitment and have a little understanding of what CAP is and does before they get the gold or silver oak leaf.

[lordmonar]

You know...that adding requirements to the promotion regulations is....against the promotion regulation.

[SARDOC]

As far as Mission Skills appointment promotions for PPL's they have to form 5 before submission, for CFI's they have to become a  CAP Check Pilot.  In other words the skill for which they are getting promoted they have to use it and demonstrate proficiency.  We were tired of getting retired commercial pilots coming in getting promoted to Capt with absolutely no intention to fly with us.

[SARDOC]

You know...that adding requirements to the promotion regulations is....against the promotion regulation.

Not the way I read it.  It says for all these promotions that you must have the recommendation by your unit commander.  If you don't use that skill...you don't get the recommendation.   


Added

CAPR 35-5   4.2 d. The member must also be certified by the unit commander as contributing his or her
special skills to the mission of CAP and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion
to the grade recommended.

[RiverAux]

Topic?

[Eclipse]

You know...that adding objective requirements to the promotion regulations is....against the promotion regulation.

i.e. "You must be on Group staff to be a Major", "...take the UCC for the commander appointment...", etc., but a higher echelon is
always free to use the subjective "you're not ready".

Also what SARDOC said. 

[lordmonar]

Wrong Para:

3-4. Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve, and National Guard Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, retired or resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Additionally, individuals who obtained the grade of warrant officer may be promoted to the CAP grade shown in figure 3 below. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

and

1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

Sorry....saying you must have a group job or complete your tech rateing for advanced promotion is a violation of para 1-1.

[lordmonar]

Topic?

Really? 

[SARDOC]

Wrong Para:

3-4. Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve, and National Guard Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, retired or resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Additionally, individuals who obtained the grade of warrant officer may be promoted to the CAP grade shown in figure 3 below. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

and

1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

Sorry....saying you must have a group job or complete your tech rateing for advanced promotion is a violation of para 1-1.

I didn't say they must have a group job.  Just that our group won't recommend advanced promotion until the member demonstrates some commitment and understanding of our organization by achieving a technician rating as noted in your first quote.  It is uniform throughout Civil Air Patrol that it's the discretion of the promoting authority.  If they want to transfer to another area that has a different promoting authority that's up to them.  I've never seen anyone do that and these people are professional enough that they understand the requirement and nobody has ever challenged it.

Sorry for going off thread...Bringing us back.  With as many Military and prior service military in my area our membership is approximately 80% prior service.   We all call each other by rank and last name where cadets are involved.  But refer to each other by first names to establish a better rapport with each other.  It works better for us instead of trying to exert ranks and titles by getting our membership to buy in to the program and feel like their commitment is personally recognized.  I know ranks and titles are important for some people but we in our area get better results by the first name because it's more welcoming (especially for our prior service folks)   I think it's important and may change based on your locale.  It's important to know your audience.   Thanks  -out-

[lordmonar]

On the topic of grade......we do the same here.

In front of cadets we follow strict military protocol....but everywhere else it is usualy just first names....there are a few exceptions (like visinting CAP dignitaries and military officers).

[Eclipse]

Sorry....saying you must have a group job or complete your tech rateing for advanced promotion is a violation of para 1-1.

That's exactly what I said.

[AC]

I use grade whenever there are other people around.  If I'm one on one with someone who is lower rank than myself then I might omit it for brevity's sake, it depends on what's appropriate.  However whenever in a group, I address everyone by grade.  I don't like being called by my first name in front of people junior to myself, and I don't presume to do it to anyone else.

+1  I feel the same way, Captain.

AC

[flyguy06]

Why do you base using a person's grade based on if a cadet is present or not? No where in "foundations" does it say that. You should do it even if there are no cadets around. You should especially do it if talking to or about a Squadron, Group or higher Commander. I here people call my Wing Commander byher first name all the time and I think its disrespectful. I call my Squadron Commander by his rank when addresssing him. and he is a friend of mine but when on the job (CAP) we play the game.

[SarDragon]

Different strokes for different folks.

[flyguy06]

Different strokes for different folks.

Different strokes for different folks? THIS is an "organization" that means we have rules to follow and cant choose the rules we want to follow and choose the ones we dont want to follow.

Thats why we dont get much respect. Because members just do what "they" feel" they want to do. And they do this because there is no fear of consequences.

[Spaceman3750]

Different strokes for different folks.

Different strokes for different folks? THIS is an "organization" that means we have rules to follow and cant choose the rules we want to follow and choose the ones we dont want to follow.

Thats why we dont get much respect. Because members just do what "they" feel" they want to do. And they do this because there is no fear of consequences.

There's a rule somewhere (as in an R-series publication, not a pamphlet of recommended practices) that says all members must address each other by grade?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I use grade whenever there are other people around.  If I'm one on one with someone who is lower rank than myself then I might omit it for brevity's sake, it depends on what's appropriate.  However whenever in a group, I address everyone by grade.  I don't like being called by my first name in front of people junior to myself, and I don't presume to do it to anyone else.

+1  I feel the same way, Captain.

AC

As do I.

However, it's almost endemic.  I am a Captain, soon (hopefully) to be a Major, and it's almost normative in my unit for second and first lieutenants to address me and other officers by first name.  The squadron CC, an LtCol, is the only one who consistently addresses us by rank, even in e-mails.

It's not correct protocol, of course, but what am I going to say?  I like these people, and I hope they like me.  I don't want to be seen as a Frank Burns type shoving my railway tracks down everyone's throat.

The only ones in my unit who consistently use rank, "sir" or "ma'am" outside of the CC are cadets.

It wasn't always that way.  My first unit, where I served from 1993-1999, always used rank - no exceptions.  It was the same way at Wing activities.  It only changed when I moved and joined a senior squadron where very few cared about advancing in rank; most were lifetime second lieutenants...it was a bit of a shock.

[johnnyb47]

Different strokes for different folks.

Different strokes for different folks? THIS is an "organization" that means we have rules to follow and cant choose the rules we want to follow and choose the ones we dont want to follow.

Thats why we dont get much respect. Because members just do what "they" feel" they want to do. And they do this because there is no fear of consequences.

There's a rule somewhere (as in an R-series publication, not a pamphlet of recommended practices) that says all members must address each other by grade?

From CAPP 151
d. Respect for Authority. As a general rule, highest ranking
personnel enter an aircraft or automobile last and leave
first. Junior ranking personnel will walk to the left of seniors.
Unless otherwise authorized, subordinates will stand in the
presence of senior officer personnel. When senior personnel
enter a room, subordinates will stand up unless a person of
higher rank is already in the room. In the military, a senior in
rank may address a subordinate by his or her first name;
however, it is inappropriate for a subordinate to communicate
in such an informal manner. Similar respect should be shown
for grades in Civil Air Patrol.

Precisely what I meant. this is all i could find and it is, IMHO wishy washy on the subject.

[lordmonar]

Different strokes for different folks.

Different strokes for different folks? THIS is an "organization" that means we have rules to follow and cant choose the rules we want to follow and choose the ones we dont want to follow.

Thats why we dont get much respect. Because members just do what "they" feel" they want to do. And they do this because there is no fear of consequences.

It is no different in the "real" USAF.

We have the printed letter of the law.....but we also have our everyday activities.  It is not the end of the world if we talk to each other like friends and coworkers......when appropriate.

[SarDragon]

Well said, Pat. Or was I supposed to say Major Harris? Should we take this all the way to date of rank?