Saw a bum wearing CAP Senior Pilot wings

[dogboy]

Today I was a bum (aka homeless individual) outside our local 99 Cent Store wearing a Marine short sleeve khaki shirt with very shiny CAP Senior Pilot wings pinned on.

No, I did not point out he was in violation of CAPR 39-1. Somehow I felt he would be unresponsive to my criticism.

[vento]

Today I was saw a bum (aka homeless individual) outside our local 99 Cent Store wearing a Marine short sleeve khaki shirt with very shiny CAP Senior Pilot wings pinned on.

No, I did not point out he was in violation of CAPR 39-1. Somehow I felt he would be unresponsive to my criticism.

Fixed

[DC]

I saw a guy sitting on a street corner once wearing an old OG107 field jacket with CAP tapes and Major rank insignia.

a bum

I believe the currently accepted term is 'Urban Outdoorsman'. 

[Eclipse]

No, I did not point out he was in violation of CAPR 39-1. Somehow I felt he would be unresponsive to my criticism.

Assuming he was not a member, our regulations do not apply, so therefore he would not be in violation.

He was probably, however, in violation of statutes regarding wearing military insignia and also probably Mopery.

[Woodsy]

I saw a guy sitting on a street corner once wearing an old OG107 field jacket with CAP tapes and Major rank insignia.

a bum

I believe the currently accepted term is 'Urban Outdoorsman'. 

I was doing some community service with an academic honors society I belong to at a goodwill donation center last week sorting through the donations and saw a field jacket with CAP tapes.

[JC004]

Great.  Constant uniform changes are costing so much that they're putting people out on the street...

[SARDOC]

He was probably, however, in violation of statutes regarding wearing military insignia and also probably Mopery.

Does Insignia from a private corporation count as "military Insignia"?  I know it gets approved by the Air Force, but does that really make it Military insignia especially when its designed specifically for civilian members?   Just Curious...not sure the enforcement of any applicable statute would hold up in court.

[SARDOC]

Great.  Constant uniform changes are costing so much that they're putting people out on the street...

Haha...too funny

[bosshawk]

It seems to me that all of us have seen CAP members who resembled homeless folks and didn't even know it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

How about the long-lost, lamented blue shoulder marks with "CAP" on a flight jacket (I'm going to guess L2-B since no other U.S. flight jacket to my knowledge has epaulettes, and UK/Canadian/Aussie ones' epaulettes are too wide to fit our shoulder marks)?

I've seen the occasional OD M65 with the odd CAP insignia (usually wings) but not much since there aren't too many of those in circulation anymore.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Does Insignia from a private corporation count as "military Insignia"?  I know it gets approved by the Air Force, but does that really make it Military insignia especially when its designed specifically for civilian members?   Just Curious...not sure the enforcement of any applicable statute would hold up in court.

I'm betting that a judge would rule it to be at least on the level of wearing a police badge when you're not a police officer.

That said, there was an old gent in the city where I grew up; kind of a local character.  He probably wasn't firing on all cylinders upstairs but he always wore a police badge of some kind...the cops knew him and let him be (he was harmless) and most of the locals (usually) affectionately called him "Sheriff Johnny" or "Two-Gun Johnny."

[SARDOC]

I'm betting that a judge would rule it to be at least on the level of wearing a police badge when you're not a police officer.

That would be inappropriate and the Judge would have his ruling overturned.  The Judge enforces and interprets law but can not just create a law because to suit his whims.  In my State there are a number of laws pertaining to impersonation when it comes to displaying badges of law enforcement officers or firefighters.   There are also laws that pertain to wearing of a military uniform while not in the military or actively taking part in some kind of theatrical event or reenactment event.  There are a few that protect the Display of a FEW but not anywhere near all Military awards when not specifically authorized to do so...these laws protect the medal of honor, silver Star, Bronze Star, Distinguished Flying Cross, Distinguished Service Cross, Navy Cross, Air Medal and a handful more that I can't remember off the top of my head.  In my state you can pin on the National Defense Service medal and walk around in public and the police can't do anything about it even if the person has never been in the military a day in their life.

Nothing about a Bum wearing Civil Air Patrol Senior Pilot Wings implies the kind of authority that a Law Enforcement officer badge would. That kind of accoutrement is not protected in my state.

[RADIOMAN015]

No, I did not point out he was in violation of CAPR 39-1. Somehow I felt he would be unresponsive to my criticism.

Assuming he was not a member, our regulations do not apply, so therefore he would not be in violation.

He was probably, however, in violation of statutes regarding wearing military insignia and also probably Mopery.

Last I looked we are CIVIL Air Patrol and that isn't the military.   All of are insignias are basically "wanna bee" military designed items meant to blend in with the military type uniform.    HOWEVER, you do bring up an important point IF a non member (never a member or a former member) was wearing a complete CAP uniform (as opposed to just an item), (bringing discredit to the organization or representing the organization/or for personal gain) who could legally stop this activity???   Would CAP Inc have to bring a cease & desist order against the individual    Since the Wing Commander is the only corporate official in the state would he/she actually have to file the complaint
RM

[ol'fido]

No, I did not point out he was in violation of CAPR 39-1. Somehow I felt he would be unresponsive to my criticism.

Assuming he was not a member, our regulations do not apply, so therefore he would not be in violation.

He was probably, however, in violation of statutes regarding wearing military insignia and also probably Mopery.

Bob, I believe that would be "Aggravated Mopery with Intent to Creep" .

[arBar]

 I occasionally see parts of scout uniforms worn by people as sort of a fashion statement.  not sure why its considered fashionable, but these girls like it: (http://www.scoutinsignia.com/celebs.htm)

If the BSA, after a hundred years is just now having this problem, I doubt we have much to worry about.

[NIN]

Last I looked we are CIVIL Air Patrol and that isn't the military.   All of are insignias are basically "wanna bee" military designed items meant to blend in with the military type uniform.    HOWEVER, you do bring up an important point IF a non member (never a member or a former member) was wearing a complete CAP uniform (as opposed to just an item), (bringing discredit to the organization or representing the organization/or for personal gain) who could legally stop this activity???   Would CAP Inc have to bring a cease & desist order against the individual    Since the Wing Commander is the only corporate official in the state would he/she actually have to file the complaint

"Attempted to serve cease-and-desist order on homeless individual wearing our uniform, however, could not locate the person identified as the 'third bum from the corner of State and Main'."

[davidsinn]

HOWEVER, you do bring up an important point IF a non member (never a member or a former member) was wearing a complete CAP uniform (as opposed to just an item), (bringing discredit to the organization or representing the organization/or for personal gain) who could legally stop this activity??? 

Any LEO can stop this because it is a violation of federal law. We fall under the same statute that controls illegal wear of military uniforms because we are a uniformed auxiliary.

[lordmonar]

I see bums wearing CAP pilot wings all the time.......they are called pilots! 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Last I looked we are CIVIL Air Patrol and that isn't the military.

Your favourite quote, as always.

WE KNOW.

All of are insignias are basically "wanna bee" military designed items meant to blend in with the military type uniform.

The "wanna bee" bit is insulting and I take exception to it.  Really only our grade insignia looks like the military...the AF, Army, Navy/CG/Marines aircrew badges look nothing like CAP wings.

If you're going to call us "wanna bee" then you might as well apply the same slur to the CGAUX, NOAA Commissioned Corps and U.S. Public Health Services.  None of those are military or subject to UCMJ, except when under assignment to one of the armed forces (not so frequent with NOAA, but frequently with USPHS medics assigned to the USCG).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That would be inappropriate and the Judge would have his ruling overturned.

Just a guess from a non-JD layperson...

[wuzafuzz]

So who's going to arrest all the cops wearing military style rank insignia?  Unless someone is wearing significant portions of current military uniforms or certain awards, I think that horse has fled the barn.

[RRLE]

Any LEO can stop this because it is a violation of federal law. We fall under the same statute that controls illegal wear of military uniforms because we are a uniformed auxiliary.

I think you will have to provide a cite to prove that and I don't think you will be able to.

The USCG Auxiliary, which (no insult intended) is the full-time Auxiliary of the USCG does not rely on 'the same statute' as the USCG. It has its own protection in 14 USC 892.

Whoever, without proper authority, flies from any building, aircraft, motorboat, yacht, or other vessel, any flag or pennant or displays any identifying insignia or wears any uniform or insignia of the Reserve or the Auxiliary shall be fined not more than $500.

CAP would probably have to resort to a civil suit and not the civil and/or military power since CAP's marks, insignia, etc are vested in the corporation not the Auxiliary side of the house by 36 USC 40306

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name "Civil Air Patrol" and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

[JC004]

...
I think you will have to provide a cite to prove that and I don't think you will be able to.
...

http://vlex.com/vid/uniform-armed-forces-health-service-19190978

CAP seems like an "any auxiliary"

[SARDOC]

That would be inappropriate and the Judge would have his ruling overturned.

Just a guess from a non-JD layperson...

Very True but as a retired Law enforcement Officer and having been involved in many cases, I can tell you that if the judge applied the law intended to stop people from displaying a badge implying they had law enforcement authority for someone who who was wearing a pair of aviator wings his ruling would get reviewed and overturned.  Not that it would ever really get that far because the even if the LEO made an arrest under that section of the code, the magistrate would probably never even certify the charge and/or the District Attorney wouldn't prosecute it under that charge.  They May Amend the charge to one that may be more applicable.

[wuzafuzz]

Maybe the laws have changed since I paid any attention to this issue, but the mere possession of a "badge" is probably insufficient to be charged.  It probably has to be coupled with some behavior that would lead a reasonable person to believe the bearer is a law enforcement officer.  Otherwise all the other folks with badges would be in trouble: LE civilian employees, guards, city council members, SAR team members, badge collectors, etc.

I suspect a similar test would be applied to military uniforms and insignia.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

This is really getting into the realms of splitting hairs, but...

What about wearing obsolete insignia?  I see it on Evilbay quite a bit, including but not limited to:

Old (droopy) aircrew wings
Not-so-old aircrew wings in pewter finish
Maroon shoulder marks (why anyone would want those is beyond me, but...)
Old cadet white-on-blue cloth chevrons
Blue CAP officer/warrant officer shoulder marks (very infrequent, but I do see them pop up from time to time)
Obsolete plastic "cartoon" ribbons

P.S. If you look on Evilbay right now you'll find some old silvertan and blue uniforms, one with CWO insignia...collectors note...

[Майор Хаткевич]

To those who make a living on eBay, we call it feeBay, and it will let anything on...except those of us who try to follow the rules.

[JC004]

This is really getting into the realms of splitting hairs, but...

What about wearing obsolete insignia?  I see it on Evilbay quite a bit, including but not limited to:

Old (droopy) aircrew wings
Not-so-old aircrew wings in pewter finish
Maroon shoulder marks (why anyone would want those is beyond me, but...)
Old cadet white-on-blue cloth chevrons
Blue CAP officer/warrant officer shoulder marks (very infrequent, but I do see them pop up from time to time)
Obsolete plastic "cartoon" ribbons

P.S. If you look on Evilbay right now you'll find some old silvertan and blue uniforms, one with CWO insignia...collectors note...

I would think not.  Would the CAP WWII reenactors be guilty of impersonation if they were not members at the time?  I think one is a CSM; they can't wear a uniform.  CRAP - if I wear the Continental Army musicians' uniform, am I impersonating?  That's a CURRENT Army uniform, even though only one unit wears it.   

We had a for-real impersonation thing happen at our meeting place WIWAC.  This guy started a thing that he called an "academy" and was more like a fake Young Marines.  It meet weekly at our sq meeting place.  From what I understand, some idiot parents sent their kid from Texas (to PA) to this academy after seeing their brochure.  They got caught.  The guy wore a full Marine officers' uniform (not a youth group version) and claimed to be a retired Marine.  He had never been any sort of Marine. 

[davidsinn]

...
I think you will have to provide a cite to prove that and I don't think you will be able to.
...

http://vlex.com/vid/uniform-armed-forces-health-service-19190978

CAP seems like an "any auxiliary"

That's the cite I had in mind.

[RRLE]

CAP seems like an "any auxiliary"

I know what you think you read but did you read the fine print, ie footnotes on your cite.

1948 ACT Based on section 1393 of title 10, U.S.C., 1940 ed., Army and Air Force, and section 228 of title 42, U.S.C., 1940 ed., The Public Health and Welfare (June 3, 1916, ch. 134, Sec. 125, 39 Stat. 216 (2d paragraph); July 1, 1944, ch. 373, Sec. 510, 58 Stat. 711). "Auxiliary of such" was inserted to extend protection to the uniforms of any auxiliary corps that may be established.

A court case would get into legislative intent and I think you will find that the 'auxiliary corps' refer to the now non-existent female corps (WACs, SPARS etc) not CAP. CAP is not an 'auxiliary corps' nor is it even a full-time auxiliary of the air force, as many on this board repeatedly point out. It is only an auxiliary when under certain orders. And as noted earlier, the US Code assigns the rights to the CAP insignia etc to the CAP corporate body not the auxiliary of the USAF role. That would make a very easy defense against a criminal charge.

If that clause means what you think it means then the USCG Auxie clause isn't necessary since they are a full-time auxiliary of the USCG.

[JC004]

On what do I have the basis to conclude that "auxiliary" is limited to auxiliaries that don't exist any longer?  "Corps" is not included in the law.  Courts do not decide legislative intent based on vlex.com notes.  Its uniform is worn all of the time, even when particular members are not acting in an auxiliary capacity.  Since when are laws made with regard to redundancy of their content?

[arBar]

This issue is pretty much similar to the US Flag Code issue where unauthorized citizens wear the flag as a fashion statement.  Does anybody ever enforce tht law?  Not that I ever hear about.  Same with military insignia.  I see people all the time who wear a piece of militaria on their jacket because its "cool". 

Unless someone is clearly impersonating a service member, I don't think its worth dragging people to jail. 

There's so much violent crime going on.  Most cops are going to let minor infractions slide. 

Plus, don't forget, the cop would have to know what CAP is to recognize its pins & badges!

[Capination]

I see bums wearing CAP pilot wings all the time.......they are called pilots! 

LOL...!!!!!!!!!!

[Capination]

Today I was a bum (aka homeless individual) outside our local 99 Cent Store wearing a Marine short sleeve khaki shirt with very shiny CAP Senior Pilot wings pinned on.

No, I did not point out he was in violation of CAPR 39-1. Somehow I felt he would be unresponsive to my criticism.

Citizens serving communities...!

Did you offer the bum any assistance, like referring him to a homeless service? Or did you limit your interaction to mind criticism? We have to look outside the box and live our leadership not limiting it to teaching a cadet, but also, causing a positive influence in out community.

Just thinking

[peter rabbit]

from the knowledgebase, quoting someone who should know, who agrees with the previous cite:

RAFAEL A. ROBLES,Lt Col,CAP
General Counsel, HQ.CAP

See below US Code Title 18 U.S.C. Section 702, which in its pertinent part reads as follows:

TITLE 18. CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I. CRIMES
CHAPTER 33. EMBLEMS, INSIGNIA, AND NAMES
Go to the United States Code Service Archive Directory
18 USCS § 702

§ 702.  Uniform of armed forces and Public Health Service
Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed forces of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

HISTORY:   (June 25, 1948, ch 645, § 1, 62 Stat. 732; May 24, 1949, ch 139, § 15, 63 Stat. 91; Sept. 13, 1994, P.L. 103-322, Title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(E), 108 Stat. 2146.)

[ol'fido]

Sorry, but we can debate legality or illegality of wearing CAP or other military insignia by unauthorized persons until we are blue in the face and it will accomplish bumpkis. 99.99999% of cops that even know what CAP is are not going to roll some bum because he's wearing a pair of wings. The only time the cop is going to care is if the guy is trying to beg or plead for money based on being a "Homeless CAP Vet" ( yeah, a lot of those out there.). Otherwise, the time that it takes to transport, process, write up the bum is time he could be out there looking for "real" criminals. And if the cop does take the time to run the guy in for "wearing CAP wings", the chances are that his supervisor will tell him to "Buy the guy a cup of coffee and take him back where you found him". Also, good luck finding a prosecutor that will even file charges unless there was some sort of major fraud going on with it.

[Hardshell Clam]

18 USC § 701. Official badges, identification cards, other insignia
Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

And for you "na-sayers" The CAP is a govt controled corp and this law would apply. But good luck trying to get the U.S. Attorney to file on it...

[Major Lord]

If you feel strongly enough about it, you can make a Citizen's Arrest, but I would strongly encourage you to engage your self-preservation mode before confronting a Street Person- They don't last long on the streets unless they have good skills at surviving confrontation, i.e. they might bite one of your body parts off......That guy wearing the Marine Corp shirt may have a few synapses left in his schizophrenic, drug addled body to summon some of the skills he may have actually acquired in a nasty swamp in North Carolina or the more pleasant, but no less rigorous areas of Southern California. There are few things worth dying for, and CAP wings sure as (heck) are not on that short list. I saw a 19 year old kid wearing an enlisted uniform with full colonel insignia, and pointed the guy out to the LAPD, who 5150'd ( Mental hold) him. Unless someone is using it to gain access to someplace they should not, I would avoid shooting them if you can find another way around it.

Major Lord

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If you feel strongly enough about it, you can make a Citizen's Arrest, but I would strongly encourage you to engage your self-preservation mode before confronting a Street Person- They don't last long on the streets unless they have good skills at surviving confrontation, i.e. they might bite one of your body parts off......
Major Lord

Sage, real-world advice.  I have known a number of street people in my lifetime and so much of their lives focuses on self-preservation that:

First, they are not going to give a tinker's cuss what someone tries to cite out of U.S. Code;

They are more than likely wearing the garment because it is WARM and could care less if it has CAP or Girl Scout insignia;

If you continue to press the issue, they'll most likely press it another way.

[NCRblues]

Thousands of high school age men and women wear old military cloths (or military style) every day. It seems to be a fashion at the moment. (One I do not understand but anyway....)

I honestly to not believe any court in the US is going to listen to this style of argument for very long. The first thing the defense would bring up is freedom of speech (and the Supreme Court has already said clothing is considered a form of speech).

[flyboy53]

If you feel strongly enough about it, you can make a Citizen's Arrest, but I would strongly encourage you to engage your self-preservation mode before confronting a Street Person- They don't last long on the streets unless they have good skills at surviving confrontation, i.e. they might bite one of your body parts off......
Major Lord

Sage, real-world advice.  I have known a number of street people in my lifetime and so much of their lives focuses on self-preservation that:

First, they are not going to give a tinker's cuss what someone tries to cite out of U.S. Code;

They are more than likely wearing the garment because it is WARM and could care less if it has CAP or Girl Scout insignia;

If you continue to press the issue, they'll most likely press it another way.

Thousands of high school age men and women wear old military cloths (or military style) every day. It seems to be a fashion at the moment. (One I do not understand but anyway....)

I honestly to not believe any court in the US is going to listen to this style of argument for very long. The first thing the defense would bring up is freedom of speech (and the Supreme Court has already said clothing is considered a form of speech).

Agree.

The sad thing about this string is that you lost the opportunity of striking up a conversation with the guy. Obviously, he holds some sort of distinction to the insignia and he may have given you a real line of B.S., but a little compassion goes a lot further than a challenge in these situations.

As a veteran, my heart breaks when I find a homeless person who is a fellow veteran. Sometimes they are in that situation because of hard luck. Sometimes, it's the result of their service and I would rather help him than critize him.

You never know.....

[DakRadz]

Okay, so what about those that DO wear full ribbons stacks as a fashion statement? I've seen the goofy "4 star general with CMSgt stripes" jackets, but usually the stripes are inaccurate or more like another country's. And those are pretty silly anyway, with little chance of being mistaken for military.

Last night I saw a guy wearing 12 military ribbons (Ultrathin-style, btw) on one of these jackets- and it looked like it came like that. Defense Superior Service, Bronze Star, MSM, DFC, NDSM, and more. Just caught a glimpse of it, and I was working- but there were obvious signs this guy wasn't wearing his own, personal ribbons, or had even been in the military.

Thoughts?

[Eclipse]

Thoughts?

Make mental note and move on.

[RADIOMAN015]

Okay, so what about those that DO wear full ribbons stacks as a fashion statement? I've seen the goofy "4 star general with CMSgt stripes" jackets, but usually the stripes are inaccurate or more like another country's. And those are pretty silly anyway, with little chance of being mistaken for military.

Last night I saw a guy wearing 12 military ribbons (Ultrathin-style, btw) on one of these jackets- and it looked like it came like that. Defense Superior Service, Bronze Star, MSM, DFC, NDSM, and more. Just caught a glimpse of it, and I was working- but there were obvious signs this guy wasn't wearing his own, personal ribbons, or had even been in the military.

Thoughts?

Well, that's pretty simple, just go up and ask him about why he is wearing what he is .  You might even want to pull out and flash your CAP ID card (hey here's an idea, maybe Vanguard could make up badges that say CAP member on it, like cops have :angel:), to let him know that CAP is watching for ANY uniform violations anywhere :angel:
RM 

[NCRblues]

Okay, so what about those that DO wear full ribbons stacks as a fashion statement? I've seen the goofy "4 star general with CMSgt stripes" jackets, but usually the stripes are inaccurate or more like another country's. And those are pretty silly anyway, with little chance of being mistaken for military.

Last night I saw a guy wearing 12 military ribbons (Ultrathin-style, btw) on one of these jackets- and it looked like it came like that. Defense Superior Service, Bronze Star, MSM, DFC, NDSM, and more. Just caught a glimpse of it, and I was working- but there were obvious signs this guy wasn't wearing his own, personal ribbons, or had even been in the military.

Thoughts?

Thoughts? Shame on him...but once again, freedom of speech and expression.

[sarmed1]

One of the ambulance companies I workrd for it was a common practice for departing members to "donate" their old uniform t-shirts and sweat shirts to the urban outdoorsmen of Tucson, Az....youl'd be driving down the road and see some dude in a paramedic shirt panhandling or selling pencils on the island in the intersection....perhaps some good natured former member has done the same thing here......
mk

[RRLE]

maybe Vanguard could make up badges that say CAP member on it, like cops have

And stand the chance of getting yourself arrested for impersonating a police officer. That is something the law takes a lot more seriously then uniform violations.

[SarDragon]

maybe Vanguard could make up badges that say CAP member on it, like cops have

And stand the chance of getting yourself arrested for impersonating a police officer. That is something the law takes a lot more seriously then uniform violations.

There was an incident in CAWG some years ago about that. Let's not go there. It's not something we need, and would likely make more trouble than it's worth.

[Hardshell Clam]

I carried a real federal badge and now a real state one and I will tell you this: You would never get a conviction for just wearing the wings/shirt. Then toss is some words like "grand jury" and "indictment".  it gets less provable.

FYI: You MIGHT if the guy was in full uniform and tried to act as a CAP member around kids or get on a base, etc. More likely, the guy would be sent off for a mental health exam unless you could show the attempt was for an "evil" purpose, then enters the locals and/or Homeland Security...

But just for wearing an old coat? More of a chance of a 747 landing on the moon.

Let it go, this is getting silly.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Most judges at all levels of the judiciary have overloaded dockets and I think their interest in a case like this is going to hover somewhere around zero, unless the "offender" is doing something really stupid like showing up at a base wearing general's stars.

[AngelWings]

^^Most judges at all levels of the judiciary have overloaded dockets and I think their interest in a case like this is going to hover somewhere around zero, unless the "offender" is doing something really stupid like showing up at a base wearing general's stars.

Or blues pants tucked into rought-out boots.