Hello All,
I am very bored at work. Looking for the best of the best CAP Tirades. Points to be given on form, content, and multiple conflicting and contradictory regulations.
The gauntlet has been CAST
CAP Recruiting: You don't need to wear a uniform.
CAP Regulations: You must own a uniform.
CAP MOU with ARRL: Promote HAM radio
CAP regs: NO HAM RADIO!
FEMA MOU with CAP: CAP provides radiological monitoring support.
CAP has discontinued radiological monitoring support at a point in time when it has never been cheaper or easier to get us involved in RM!
CAP Mission Statement:
"Supporting America's communities with emergency response, diverse aviation and ground services, youth development, and promotion of air, space and cyber power."
Number of senior member level activities supporting cyber power: 0
Number of satellites operated by CAP in history: 0
Uniform non Uniformity - How many different uniforms and uniform interpretations did you see at the last SAREX...
Quote from: Thonawit on April 07, 2016, 06:34:50 PM
Uniform non Uniformity - How many different uniforms and uniform interpretations did you see at the last SAREX...
And my personal favorite on that note: What color of grey pants do we standardize on?
:clap: Very good Warm Up Gentlemen!! But I know that we can do better!!! Excellence in everything we Do! (Including tirades, rants, and general griping)
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on April 07, 2016, 06:39:37 PM
Quote from: Thonawit on April 07, 2016, 06:34:50 PM
Uniform non Uniformity - How many different uniforms and uniform interpretations did you see at the last SAREX...
And my personal favorite on that note: What color of grey pants do we standardize on?
It's in the all telling book - The 50 shades of CAP Gray
Cadet Programs:
Motivate our future Leaders to Promote and be Challenged...
Reality: Look at Cadet sideways or offer encouragement or counseling, get accused of Hazing Cadet Precious Snowflake
Three missions....ha! More like "Jack of all trades...."
Quote from: THRAWN on April 07, 2016, 07:12:59 PM
Three missions....ha! More like "Jack of all trades...."
Master of none.
Quote from: stillamarine on April 07, 2016, 07:35:32 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on April 07, 2016, 07:12:59 PM
Three missions....ha! More like "Jack of all trades...."
Master of none.
Exacta-mundo. When you factor in all of the PD, communications, IT, etc, what it really boils down to is that CAP really has TWO missions: education and service. You can paint a lot of fence with that broad brush. Or we could just pretend that we actually have and execute 3 missions.
Quote from: THRAWN on April 07, 2016, 08:23:25 PM
Quote from: stillamarine on April 07, 2016, 07:35:32 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on April 07, 2016, 07:12:59 PM
Three missions....ha! More like "Jack of all trades...."
Master of none.
Exacta-mundo. When you factor in all of the PD, communications, IT, etc, what it really boils down to is that CAP really has TWO missions: education and service. You can paint a lot of fence with that broad brush. Or we could just pretend that we actually have and execute 3 missions.
PD, communications, and IT are not our missions (with some narrow exceptions in the comm space related to conducting radio relay/nets for outside agencies). They are the support framework to help us accomplish our three missions.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 07, 2016, 08:35:35 PM
PD, communications, and IT are not our missions (with some narrow exceptions in the comm space related to conducting radio relay/nets for outside agencies). They are the support framework to help us accomplish our three missions.
+1 People seem to forget that. That also goes for Legal, Safety, Health Services, Chaplains, Logistics, Admin, Personnel, Finance, Public Affairs, IG, Historian, RRO, DDRx (partially), Stan Eval, and anything else, including Higher HQ above the unit, that isn't ES, AE, or CP
operations.
That's why it's incumbent on those directorates to be as streamlined, informed, and mission / member focused as possible.
The missions
can't be accomplished
without them, but they aren't the mission.
My all time favorite...
The GOB networks!
If your not in, your out, or maybe in at a later date but out now until someone new takes over and then maybe I'm out and your in... In any case your in...or was that out?
Cadet cannot promote without possessing a CAP uniform and wearing it properly.
CAP will not provide a uniform (voucher) until after cadet promotes.
If unit doesn't have BDU to issue, cadet/parents must purchase BDU.
CAP proclaims that ABUs are pending final approval, but forces cadets/parents to purchase BDU instead.
And this is different, how?
I can tell you from direct experience that the new program is putting uniforms in the hands of cadets
who have shown an actual investment in CAP much quicker then before, and CEAP provides even more
support for encampment uniforms. The rate at which these things are flowing is quite impressive, actually.
Cadets >always< had to buy the BDU, this has not changed at all. The random chance of some units having
them doesn't change that. I didn't care for the verbiage about units supplying them either, but that sentence isn't a
requirement by any means, just a suggestion.
How does the possibility of a new uniform down the road affect this? There will be a sundown by which time
the cadet would have more then grown out of the BDU anyway. Assuming it's ever actually implemented, no one has
to buy them day 1, cadet or senior, unless being the "cool kid" is somehow important.
Quote from: NCRblues on April 07, 2016, 09:24:06 PM
My all time favorite...
The GOB networks!
If your you're not in, your you're out, or maybe in at a later date but out now until someone new takes over and then maybe I'm out and your you're in... In any case your you're in...or was that out?
FTFY.
Quote from: SarDragon on April 08, 2016, 04:39:22 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on April 07, 2016, 09:24:06 PM
My all time favorite...
The GOB networks!
If your you're not in, your you're out, or maybe in at a later date but out now until someone new takes over and then maybe I'm out and your you're in... In any case your you're in...or was that out?
FTFY.
It was meant to be a satire of those people who (rightly or not) believe everything done in CAP is conducted by a super secret "club" that they are not in.
Are you viewing this on a phone, text only? I was correcting your repeated misuse of the word "your".
Quote from: SarDragon on April 08, 2016, 04:47:39 AM
Are you viewing this on a phone, text only? I was correcting your repeated misuse of the word "your".
No no, we are both missing this train.
I get what you did, you do not get what I was trying to convey over the interwebs.
It was supposed to be a sarcastic use of that whole sentence including the structure and "use of your" in an incorrect form.
Does not translate well, 10-4
Quote from: avguy on April 07, 2016, 09:51:06 PM
CAP proclaims that ABUs are pending final approval, but forces cadets/parents to purchase BDU instead.
Target date is January 1, 2018. There will probably be a transition period of 6-12 months where both uniforms will be authorized.
I'll see your 6 to 12 months, and raise - more like 3 years... >:D
Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on April 08, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
I'll see your 6 to 12 months, and raise - more like 3 years... >:D
Just like every other major uniform change we've had over the years .
Heck, cadets are still transitioning from the old Service Dress to the new Service Dress.
And have been for over 10 years now!
Simply removing an item takes years.
How long does it take to pull a flag?
Quote from: PHall on April 08, 2016, 03:15:25 PM
Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on April 08, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
I'll see your 6 to 12 months, and raise - more like 3 years... >:D
Just like every other major uniform change we've had over the years .
Heck, cadets are still transitioning from the old Service Dress to the new Service Dress.
And have been for over 10 years now!
10 years? It was the "new style" when I joined in 2003, and the AF went to it in what, 94-95? Why do we still allow the "old" style? Plenty of current style out there, and they don't look grey/faded either. My unit forced all cadets to the current style in 2006.
Quote from: avguy on April 07, 2016, 09:51:06 PM
Cadet cannot promote without possessing a CAP uniform and wearing it properly.
CAP will not provide a uniform (voucher) until after cadet promotes.
Are you implying your unit doesn't approve Curry unless the cadet has a dress blues uniform? Cuz that ain't right.
Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on April 08, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
I'll see your 6 to 12 months, and raise - more like 3 years... >:D
It was suggested at my wing conference, where it was first announced, that it was likely that there would be a supply pipeline direct to squadrons. This would explain the ambitious timetable.
Quote from: varitec on April 08, 2016, 03:48:38 PM
Quote from: avguy on April 07, 2016, 09:51:06 PM
Cadet cannot promote without possessing a CAP uniform and wearing it properly.
CAP will not provide a uniform (voucher) until after cadet promotes.
Are you implying your unit doesn't approve Curry unless the cadet has a dress blues uniform? Cuz that ain't right.
No I am not implying that. One astute reader accuses me of proclaiming that units instead of members are required to purchase uniforms (BDUs, in that instance) and another infers that I only promote cadets in blues.
If this thread had been titled "Reasonable and thoughtful discussion of CAP's odd gray areas", I would have honored the spirit of the thread with more a detailed and thoughtful explanation, pointing to the new member perspective. My "tirade" pointed to frustration with what is, in the minds of new members and parents-who-pay-the-bills who I work with every week, a gray area of uncertainty (where do I buy this stuff? How come some people get things issued from the squadron and my kid doesn't [
lack of available sizes]? Why is everybody talking about ABUs but I'm told to buy BDUs (whatever those two things are...)?. Those who have the 20-year perspective on CAP will not see it as rating a tirade or even rating a mention - just business as usual. And that disconnect between the way old-timers perceive CAP's policies and procedures, and the way newcomers perceive them is part of why so many units struggle with recruiting and retention.
^ Simple questions, simple answers. No issues unless ignored that's where the problem is, not in the answers themselves.
Quote from: avguy on April 08, 2016, 04:28:18 PM(Bunch of redacted stuff...) Why is everybody talking about ABUs but I'm told to buy BDUs (whatever those two things are...)?
The ABU talk is just that - talk. Until USAF pulls the trigger on a transition, however long it takes, we wear BDUs. Given the usually generous transition period, three or more years, it's entirely possible that you could buy a set of BDUs on the day before ABUs are authorized, and get your money's worth during the transition period. This is especially true for growing cadets, who frequently outgrow uniforms before wearing them out.
Boy People....even a Tirade competition becomes a uniform rant ::)
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 08, 2016, 10:05:34 PM
Boy People....even a Tirade competition becomes a uniform rant ::)
Amen, Sistah!
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 08, 2016, 10:05:34 PM
Boy People....even a Tirade competition becomes a uniform rant ::)
You wanted a tirade, you got a tirade! >:D
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 07, 2016, 06:03:46 PM
Hello All,
I am very bored at work. Looking for the best of the best CAP Tirades. Points to be given on form, content, and multiple conflicting and contradictory regulations.
The gauntlet has been CAST
CAPR 35-5: Members who meet the eligibility requirement (grade equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard, completion of Level I, serve six months in CAP) may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander, who forwards the CAPF 2 to NHQ for processing.
Reality: NHQ makes you route it through the entire food chain for the grade sought despite their own publication. They can follow new rules, you see, but they can't publish them because reasons.
Quote from: DoubleSecret on May 10, 2016, 03:10:12 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 07, 2016, 06:03:46 PM
Hello All,
I am very bored at work. Looking for the best of the best CAP Tirades. Points to be given on form, content, and multiple conflicting and contradictory regulations.
The gauntlet has been CAST
CAPR 35-5: Members who meet the eligibility requirement (grade equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard, completion of Level I, serve six months in CAP) may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander, who forwards the CAPF 2 to NHQ for processing.
Reality: NHQ makes you route it through the entire food chain for the grade sought despite their own publication. They can follow new rules, you see, but they can't publish them because reasons.
Beyond reality! It took over a month for a retired SNCO to get approval to hold a CAP NCO grade. It had to be reviewed by the Region Command Chief and the National Command Chief. It was in addition to the regular process of promotion boards at the Wing and Region level. It is actually MUCH easier for a former military officer to get the equivalent CAP grade by FAR. Don't know what that is but it sure made for a very frustrating ordeal and the member actually almost left CAP over it.
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 10, 2016, 11:07:53 PM
Beyond reality! It took over a month for a retired SNCO to get approval to hold a CAP NCO grade. It had to be reviewed by the Region Command Chief and the National Command Chief. It was in addition to the regular process of promotion boards at the Wing and Region level. It is actually MUCH easier for a former military officer to get the equivalent CAP grade by FAR. Don't know what that is but it sure made for a very frustrating ordeal and the member actually almost left CAP over it.
Big Blue manages to get along without CMSAF or even MAJCOM command chiefs "reviewing" NCO promotions, even to CMSgt. Why is CAP different?
Quote from: DoubleSecret on May 11, 2016, 01:45:07 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 10, 2016, 11:07:53 PM
Beyond reality! It took over a month for a retired SNCO to get approval to hold a CAP NCO grade. It had to be reviewed by the Region Command Chief and the National Command Chief. It was in addition to the regular process of promotion boards at the Wing and Region level. It is actually MUCH easier for a former military officer to get the equivalent CAP grade by FAR. Don't know what that is but it sure made for a very frustrating ordeal and the member actually almost left CAP over it.
Big Blue manages to get along without CMSAF or even MAJCOM command chiefs "reviewing" NCO promotions, even to CMSgt. Why is CAP different?
The only reason Chief Eldridge is review all of them....is because the NCO promotion system is so new, the rules are not all published and we (CAP and NCO committee) are still working out the bugs in the system.
We are actively working on all the obvious problems...have identified several other problems with they system and are trying to get it right.
Thanks for your concern.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 11, 2016, 02:38:07 AM
Quote from: DoubleSecret on May 11, 2016, 01:45:07 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 10, 2016, 11:07:53 PM
Beyond reality! It took over a month for a retired SNCO to get approval to hold a CAP NCO grade. It had to be reviewed by the Region Command Chief and the National Command Chief. It was in addition to the regular process of promotion boards at the Wing and Region level. It is actually MUCH easier for a former military officer to get the equivalent CAP grade by FAR. Don't know what that is but it sure made for a very frustrating ordeal and the member actually almost left CAP over it.
Big Blue manages to get along without CMSAF or even MAJCOM command chiefs "reviewing" NCO promotions, even to CMSgt. Why is CAP different?
The only reason Chief Eldridge is review all of them....is because the NCO promotion system is so new, the rules are not all published and we (CAP and NCO committee) are still working out the bugs in the system.
We are actively working on all the obvious problems...have identified several other problems with they system and are trying to get it right.
Thanks for your concern.
Looking forward to seeing more.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 11, 2016, 02:38:07 AMThe only reason Chief Eldridge is review all of them....is because the NCO promotion system is so new, the rules are not all published and we (CAP and NCO committee) are still working out the bugs in the system.
Wow, think we identified one of the bugs. I apologize for the sarcasm, of course you're aware of such an enormous issue. Wouldn't it be better to work off the existing rules before holding people accountable to unpublished regulations?
No one is being " held accountable" It may be slow and klanky. But everyone is getting what they deserve. I mean it took only a month to get a SNCO his stripes. That sounds like light speed compared to some "normal" promotions.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: lordmonar on May 11, 2016, 02:38:07 AMThe only reason Chief Eldridge is review all of them....is because the NCO promotion system is so new, the rules are not all published and we (CAP and NCO committee) are still working out the bugs in the system.
Why would this involve anything "unpublished"? This is talking about a military equivalence promotion.
This should be treated no differently then an officer-level military equivalence.
Which is different (as published) for NCOs. One of those changes we made that we can't get published.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: lordmonar on May 11, 2016, 04:44:42 AM
Which is different (as published) for NCOs. One of those changes we made that we can't get published.
Even if you can't get it incorporated into the regs, it should be pushed out via the RSS or a direct email to the CCs.
If things have really changed and the NCOs are operating under (effectively) double-secret rules, then
the angst is appropriate and it should be turned up.
The regs are the regs, anything else is just making it up on the fly, and should be a sustainable complaint.
Military promotions are nothing new. NCO appointments and promotions should not be complicated at all. Just follow the same process we do for military officers. Problem solved.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 11, 2016, 12:40:20 PM
Military promotions are nothing new. NCO appointments and promotions should not be complicated at all. Just follow the same process we do for military officers. Problem solved.
But there are new rules. But they are unpublished.
Quote from: DoubleSecret on May 10, 2016, 03:10:12 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 07, 2016, 06:03:46 PM
Hello All,
I am very bored at work. Looking for the best of the best CAP Tirades. Points to be given on form, content, and multiple conflicting and contradictory regulations.
The gauntlet has been CAST
CAPR 35-5: Members who meet the eligibility requirement (grade equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard, completion of Level I, serve six months in CAP) may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander, who forwards the CAPF 2 to NHQ for processing.
Reality: NHQ makes you route it through the entire food chain for the grade sought despite their own publication. They can follow new rules, you see, but they can't publish them because reasons.
NHQ's role on these promotions should be administrative/ministerial. The regulations do not vest discretionary authority to NHQ on these things. They should simply input the CAPF 2 into the system, not send it to other people for review.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 11, 2016, 02:26:45 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 11, 2016, 12:40:20 PM
Military promotions are nothing new. NCO appointments and promotions should not be complicated at all. Just follow the same process we do for military officers. Problem solved.
But there are new rules. But they are unpublished.
If it's not written down (published), they don't exist.
Quote from: JeffDG on May 11, 2016, 03:06:53 PM
Quote from: DoubleSecret on May 10, 2016, 03:10:12 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 07, 2016, 06:03:46 PM
Hello All,
I am very bored at work. Looking for the best of the best CAP Tirades. Points to be given on form, content, and multiple conflicting and contradictory regulations.
The gauntlet has been CAST
CAPR 35-5: Members who meet the eligibility requirement (grade equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard, completion of Level I, serve six months in CAP) may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander, who forwards the CAPF 2 to NHQ for processing.
Reality: NHQ makes you route it through the entire food chain for the grade sought despite their own publication. They can follow new rules, you see, but they can't publish them because reasons.
NHQ's role on these promotions should be administrative/ministerial. The regulations do not vest discretionary authority to NHQ on these things. They should simply input the CAPF 2 into the system, not send it to other people for review.
Somehow wings have been able to get in the middle of this and mess things up too.
Quote from: JeffDG on May 11, 2016, 03:07:22 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 11, 2016, 02:26:45 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 11, 2016, 12:40:20 PM
Military promotions are nothing new. NCO appointments and promotions should not be complicated at all. Just follow the same process we do for military officers. Problem solved.
But there are new rules. But they are unpublished.
If it's not written down (published), they don't exist.
Unpublished G-14 classified rules aren't going to win the hearts and minds of the membership. I realize that the program is new and new procedures are being developed and fielded, but they should not be fielded before they're in writing. That just smacks of all of the ills that CAP has ever been accused of.
Quote from: Thonawit on April 07, 2016, 06:34:50 PM
Uniform non Uniformity - How many different uniforms and uniform interpretations did you see at the last SAREX...
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1jqhhof3G1qf4vdro1_500.png)
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 11, 2016, 02:26:45 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 11, 2016, 12:40:20 PM
Military promotions are nothing new. NCO appointments and promotions should not be complicated at all. Just follow the same process we do for military officers. Problem solved.
But there are new rules. But they are unpublished.
There are definitely some "bugs" in the system. I submitted the paperwork for a current Active Duty senior members who wants stripes on a form to NHQ. Have heard nothing for over two months. Called and found out that they 'lost' the paperwork and asked why I mailed it in? Suggestion was to email it to LMMForms. That is now done. Waiting a few weeks to follow up on that one...
Maybe it's not that the form was 'lost'. Maybe the new and unpublished meetings of the secret cabal to determine how many stripes to offer the new SM is what is holding things up??? >:D >:D >:D
My Wing put out a request for applications for Wing Command Chief with a deadline of 31 Oct 15. Still haven't selected the CCMSGT despite there being only 1 application, a retired Army MSgt (E-8). With service in Vietnam, Iraq, and HQ CENTCOM. His CAP service includes Wing DP for 10 years, Group Commander, and Squadron Commander in two wings. MG Vasquez, Chief Eldridge, Region and Wing Commanders, not to mention NHQ staff, the NCO program is going to die on the vine from apathy on the behalf of the Chain of Command.
Quote from: MSG Mac on May 12, 2016, 09:55:59 PM
My Wing put out a request for applications for Wing Command Chief with a deadline of 31 Oct 15. Still haven't selected the CCMSGT despite there being only 1 application, a retired Army MSgt (E-8). With service in Vietnam, Iraq, and HQ CENTCOM. His CAP service includes Wing DP for 10 years, Group Commander, and Squadron Commander in two wings. MG Vasquez, Chief Eldridge, Region and Wing Commanders, not to mention NHQ staff, the NCO program is going to die on the vine from apathy on the behalf of the Chain of Command.
It's not apathy. We're still trying to figure out what these NCOs are supposed to do. I drank the cool aid and appointed one, but have yet to figure out what to task him with. There's been practically zero guidance from above.
Quote from: Thonawit on April 07, 2016, 06:34:50 PM
Uniform non Uniformity - How many different uniforms and uniform interpretations did you see at the last SAREX...
I saw quite a few variations at my first SAREX a couple weeks ago.
But the funny thing is ... proper uniforms or not ... the missions were all accomplished and successful.
Wow, I am surprised!
With the importance that some people here give to the uniform, you would believe that having all participants in the same uniform, at least to the tune of 99.999999999, is key to being successful on missions!
:o
Not!
>:D
Quote from: etodd on May 12, 2016, 10:39:09 PM
Quote from: Thonawit on April 07, 2016, 06:34:50 PM
Uniform non Uniformity - How many different uniforms and uniform interpretations did you see at the last SAREX...
I saw quite a few variations at my first SAREX a couple weeks ago.
But the funny thing is ... proper uniforms or not ... the missions were all accomplished and successful.
[/quote
If someone can't figure out how to properly wear a uniform, how can I be sure they don't slack on their skills too?
Quote from: MSG Mac on May 12, 2016, 09:55:59 PM
My Wing put out a request for applications for Wing Command Chief with a deadline of 31 Oct 15. Still haven't selected the CCMSGT despite there being only 1 application, a retired Army MSgt (E-8). With service in Vietnam, Iraq, and HQ CENTCOM. His CAP service includes Wing DP for 10 years, Group Commander, and Squadron Commander in two wings. MG Vasquez, Chief Eldridge, Region and Wing Commanders, not to mention NHQ staff, the NCO program is going to die on the vine from apathy on the behalf of the Chain of Command.
I thought the command chief position wasn't one you could promote a SMSgt to fill, you had to have someone already holding CMSgt. Of course, the secret rules might vary.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 12, 2016, 11:38:12 PM
Quote from: etodd on May 12, 2016, 10:39:09 PM
Quote from: Thonawit on April 07, 2016, 06:34:50 PM
Uniform non Uniformity - How many different uniforms and uniform interpretations did you see at the last SAREX...
I saw quite a few variations at my first SAREX a couple weeks ago.
But the funny thing is ... proper uniforms or not ... the missions were all accomplished and successful.
If someone can't figure out how to properly wear a uniform, how can I be sure they don't slack on their skills too?
I agree 100% for Cadets. For them its teaching them attention to detail. Decades older you can prioritize. LOL
How many SAR Missions are delayed an hour or maybe even more because folks had to drive 30 minutes home to change clothes and then 30 minutes or more to the airport? Or maybe most folks keep uniforms in each car they drive? Maybe some Squadrons have lockers for uniforms near the planes?
Quote from: etodd on May 13, 2016, 02:19:36 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 12, 2016, 11:38:12 PM
Quote from: etodd on May 12, 2016, 10:39:09 PM
Quote from: Thonawit on April 07, 2016, 06:34:50 PM
Uniform non Uniformity - How many different uniforms and uniform interpretations did you see at the last SAREX...
I saw quite a few variations at my first SAREX a couple weeks ago.
But the funny thing is ... proper uniforms or not ... the missions were all accomplished and successful.
If someone can't figure out how to properly wear a uniform, how can I be sure they don't slack on their skills too?
I agree 100% for Cadets. For them its teaching them attention to detail. Decades older you can prioritize. LOL
How many SAR Missions are delayed an hour or maybe even more because folks had to drive 30 minutes home to change clothes and then 30 minutes or more to the airport? Or maybe most folks keep uniforms in each car they drive? Maybe some Squadrons have lockers for uniforms near the planes?
We need to be in uniforms on a mission. No reason for the uniform to be wrong.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 03:12:19 AM
We need to be in uniforms on a mission. No reason for the uniform to be wrong.
No problem. I just was wondering if anyone had ever done a study on our response time for SAR. If I was near the airport and got called for a search and then had to spend an hour or more getting back home for my uniform ... I would sure feel guilty if the search was successful, but the 'rescue' was too late. I don't guess thats ever happened ... or was documented at any rate. Fortunately in my area, the police and sheriff's helicopters would be first responders. They can get airborne in mere minutes. We come along after.
We keep detailed records on 'wheels up' and 'starting search' times. Surely Hdqs has done a study at some point on our response time. But it may not be public info, but would be interesting to see and analyze.
Quote from: etodd on May 13, 2016, 03:49:44 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 03:12:19 AM
We need to be in uniforms on a mission. No reason for the uniform to be wrong.
No problem. I just was wondering if anyone had ever done a study on our response time for SAR. If I was near the airport and got called for a search and then had to spend an hour or more getting back home for my uniform ... I would sure feel guilty if the search was successful, but the 'rescue' was too late. I don't guess thats ever happened ... or was documented at any rate. Fortunately in my area, the police and sheriff's helicopters would be first responders. They can get airborne in mere minutes. We come along after.
We keep detailed records on 'wheels up' and 'starting search' times. Surely Hdqs has done a study at some point on our response time. But it may not be public info, but would be interesting to see and analyze.
YOU may be near your field. The rest of the crew?
We wear uniforms on missions. We don't fly in shorts and tshirts. And yes, a lot of people DO have a uniform in their car, even if it's just a polo/grey slacks.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 02:57:17 PM
We wear uniforms on missions. We don't fly in shorts and tshirts.
I'm sure the folks bleeding out in the crash feel all warm and fuzzy knowing their rescuer's boots are all spit polished. ;D
QuoteAnd yes, a lot of people DO have a uniform in their car, even if it's just a polo/grey slacks.
Good idea and should be common sense, but I've never seen it mentioned in any of the official CAP materials. Needs to be mentioned more, as well as keeping flight bags, headsets, etc. within reach. I see people talking here about having to go back home first. No one saying "Yes, I'll go" when being called for a mission should ever have to say, "Give me a couple hours to drive home, get dressed, grab my gear and head out to the airport."
What happens when things go wrong, and the plane you are in crashes- and you aren't in uniform. There goes your insurance and all the nice benefits of the AFAM go away, just because you couldn't be bothered to follow the regulations that you swore (or affirmed) to uphold.
The first thing that the insurance is going to do is to try to find a way and not pay.
Quote from: etodd on May 13, 2016, 03:49:44 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 03:12:19 AM
We need to be in uniforms on a mission. No reason for the uniform to be wrong.
No problem. I just was wondering if anyone had ever done a study on our response time for SAR. If I was near the airport and got called for a search and then had to spend an hour or more getting back home for my uniform ... I would sure feel guilty if the search was successful, but the 'rescue' was too late. I don't guess thats ever happened ... or was documented at any rate. Fortunately in my area, the police and sheriff's helicopters would be first responders. They can get airborne in mere minutes. We come along after.
We keep detailed records on 'wheels up' and 'starting search' times. Surely Hdqs has done a study at some point on our response time. But it may not be public info, but would be interesting to see and analyze.
That's why it's a good idea to keep a uniform and gear readily available, so that you can quickly respond to a mission.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 13, 2016, 03:43:19 PM
Quote from: etodd on May 13, 2016, 03:49:44 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 03:12:19 AM
We need to be in uniforms on a mission. No reason for the uniform to be wrong.
No problem. I just was wondering if anyone had ever done a study on our response time for SAR. If I was near the airport and got called for a search and then had to spend an hour or more getting back home for my uniform ... I would sure feel guilty if the search was successful, but the 'rescue' was too late. I don't guess thats ever happened ... or was documented at any rate. Fortunately in my area, the police and sheriff's helicopters would be first responders. They can get airborne in mere minutes. We come along after.
We keep detailed records on 'wheels up' and 'starting search' times. Surely Hdqs has done a study at some point on our response time. But it may not be public info, but would be interesting to see and analyze.
That's why it's a good idea to keep a uniform and gear readily available, so that you can quickly respond to a mission.
But you don't understand! Uniforms are pointless! And we need to go NOW! ORM? Who needs that!? There's a 121.5 going off, and someone needs my rescue services NOW!
If someone is going to bleed out, they probably did so before CAP even got the phone call.
I'm not saying don't act with a sense of urgency, but I am saying that we don't throw the rule book out the window because "someone needs our help". Every emergency response organization has a rule book.
Quote from: DoubleSecret on May 13, 2016, 01:28:07 AM
I thought the command chief position wasn't one you could promote a SMSgt to fill, you had to have someone already holding CMSgt. Of course, the secret rules might vary.
Read CAPR 35-5, page 19. Command chief is the national level CMSgt position. At wing, it is the Senior NCO advisor, at which the temp promote to CMSgt if they meeting the TIG.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 13, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
If someone is going to bleed out, they probably did so before CAP even got the phone call.
I'm not saying don't act with a sense of urgency, but I am saying that we don't throw the rule book out the window because "someone needs our help". Every emergency response organization has a rule book.
Nice point!!! As a firefighter we always preach scene safety and ORM along with the adage "Risk small to save small, risk big to save big". Not saying that CAP follows this as a responding agency, but SOP's, Policy, and Procedures are in place for a reason, to keep people from getting hurt or killed.
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:43:08 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 13, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
If someone is going to bleed out, they probably did so before CAP even got the phone call.
I'm not saying don't act with a sense of urgency, but I am saying that we don't throw the rule book out the window because "someone needs our help". Every emergency response organization has a rule book.
Nice point!!! As a firefighter we always preach scene safety and ORM along with the adage "Risk small to save small, risk big to save big". Not saying that CAP follows this as a responding agency, but SOP's, Policy, and Procedures are in place for a reason, to keep people from getting hurt or killed.
Yea, I wasn't going to make that point,but what's our typical "call" time? 2-4 hours?
Quote from: Ozzy on May 13, 2016, 04:36:08 PM
Quote from: DoubleSecret on May 13, 2016, 01:28:07 AM
I thought the command chief position wasn't one you could promote a SMSgt to fill, you had to have someone already holding CMSgt. Of course, the secret rules might vary.
Read CAPR 35-5, page 19. Command chief is the national level CMSgt position. At wing, it is the Senior NCO advisor, at which the temp promote to CMSgt if they meeting the TIG.
This whole NCO thing still has me confused even after reading the 35-5. I was going to put on NCO stripes, but without any knowledge on the system, I have decided to go the officer route. If the new policy comes out before I hit my 6 month mark, and before I throw on any rank, if I can figure it out, I might go the NCO route and throw Tech Sergeant on. Only time will tell i guess
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:43:08 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 13, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
If someone is going to bleed out, they probably did so before CAP even got the phone call.
I'm not saying don't act with a sense of urgency, but I am saying that we don't throw the rule book out the window because "someone needs our help". Every emergency response organization has a rule book.
Nice point!!! As a firefighter we always preach scene safety and ORM along with the adage "Risk small to save small, risk big to save big". Not saying that CAP follows this as a responding agency, but SOP's, Policy, and Procedures are in place for a reason, to keep people from getting hurt or killed.
Yea, I wasn't going to make that point,but what's our typical "call" time? 2-4 hours?
Maybe even longer!!! it's not like we have to follow DoD ART times and be out the door in less than 2 minutes from callout
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:47:07 PM
Quote from: Ozzy on May 13, 2016, 04:36:08 PM
Read CAPR 35-5, page 19. Command chief is the national level CMSgt position. At wing, it is the Senior NCO advisor, at which the temp promote to CMSgt if they meeting the TIG.
This whole NCO thing still has me confused even after reading the 35-5. I was going to put on NCO stripes, but without any knowledge on the system, I have decided to go the officer route. If the new policy comes out before I hit my 6 month mark, and before I throw on any rank, if I can figure it out, I might go the NCO route and throw Tech Sergeant on. Only time will tell i guess
I'll let you know how it goes. I'm in the process of rejoining after leaving for a few years and I'm planning on going the NCO route. I'm not sure how the dates work for rejoining... perhaps someone can let me know?
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:48:47 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:43:08 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 13, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
If someone is going to bleed out, they probably did so before CAP even got the phone call.
I'm not saying don't act with a sense of urgency, but I am saying that we don't throw the rule book out the window because "someone needs our help". Every emergency response organization has a rule book.
Nice point!!! As a firefighter we always preach scene safety and ORM along with the adage "Risk small to save small, risk big to save big". Not saying that CAP follows this as a responding agency, but SOP's, Policy, and Procedures are in place for a reason, to keep people from getting hurt or killed.
Yea, I wasn't going to make that point,but what's our typical "call" time? 2-4 hours?
Maybe even longer!!! it's not like we have to follow DoD ART times and be out the door in less than 2 minutes from callout
I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:19:28 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:48:47 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:43:08 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 13, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
If someone is going to bleed out, they probably did so before CAP even got the phone call.
I'm not saying don't act with a sense of urgency, but I am saying that we don't throw the rule book out the window because "someone needs our help". Every emergency response organization has a rule book.
Nice point!!! As a firefighter we always preach scene safety and ORM along with the adage "Risk small to save small, risk big to save big". Not saying that CAP follows this as a responding agency, but SOP's, Policy, and Procedures are in place for a reason, to keep people from getting hurt or killed.
Yea, I wasn't going to make that point,but what's our typical "call" time? 2-4 hours?
Maybe even longer!!! it's not like we have to follow DoD ART times and be out the door in less than 2 minutes from callout
I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?
A wing/unit activation policy helps send out warnings to members of a possible activation. These days it is easier than ever to set up a distribution list that will fire off a short message via SMS, IM and email at the same time with the pertinent data to get a person moving.
Quote from: Ozzy on May 13, 2016, 05:54:55 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:47:07 PM
Quote from: Ozzy on May 13, 2016, 04:36:08 PM
Read CAPR 35-5, page 19. Command chief is the national level CMSgt position. At wing, it is the Senior NCO advisor, at which the temp promote to CMSgt if they meeting the TIG.
This whole NCO thing still has me confused even after reading the 35-5. I was going to put on NCO stripes, but without any knowledge on the system, I have decided to go the officer route. If the new policy comes out before I hit my 6 month mark, and before I throw on any rank, if I can figure it out, I might go the NCO route and throw Tech Sergeant on. Only time will tell i guess
I'll let you know how it goes. I'm in the process of rejoining after leaving for a few years and I'm planning on going the NCO route. I'm not sure how the dates work for rejoining... perhaps someone can let me know?
I know it is splitting hairs, but I have a hard time convincing myself to put on officer rank after being a NCO for so long. I know it's all in my head, and it shouldn't be a big deal to me because this is CAP, but it just doesn't feel right having people salute me and call me sir all the time. Every time a cadet calls me Sir, I turn around and look for an officer behind me. Thank you US Army for totally brain washing me!!!
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 13, 2016, 06:23:39 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:19:28 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:48:47 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:43:08 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 13, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
If someone is going to bleed out, they probably did so before CAP even got the phone call.
I'm not saying don't act with a sense of urgency, but I am saying that we don't throw the rule book out the window because "someone needs our help". Every emergency response organization has a rule book.
Nice point!!! As a firefighter we always preach scene safety and ORM along with the adage "Risk small to save small, risk big to save big". Not saying that CAP follows this as a responding agency, but SOP's, Policy, and Procedures are in place for a reason, to keep people from getting hurt or killed.
Yea, I wasn't going to make that point,but what's our typical "call" time? 2-4 hours?
Maybe even longer!!! it's not like we have to follow DoD ART times and be out the door in less than 2 minutes from callout
I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?
A wing/unit activation policy helps send out warnings to members of a possible activation. These days it is easier than ever to set up a distribution list that will fire off a short message via SMS, IM and email at the same time with the pertinent data to get a person moving.
I'm way to new to have been on a callout, but realistically, what is a normal time from notification to on scene time?
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 06:28:25 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 13, 2016, 06:23:39 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:19:28 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:48:47 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:43:08 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 13, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
If someone is going to bleed out, they probably did so before CAP even got the phone call.
I'm not saying don't act with a sense of urgency, but I am saying that we don't throw the rule book out the window because "someone needs our help". Every emergency response organization has a rule book.
Nice point!!! As a firefighter we always preach scene safety and ORM along with the adage "Risk small to save small, risk big to save big". Not saying that CAP follows this as a responding agency, but SOP's, Policy, and Procedures are in place for a reason, to keep people from getting hurt or killed.
Yea, I wasn't going to make that point,but what's our typical "call" time? 2-4 hours?
Maybe even longer!!! it's not like we have to follow DoD ART times and be out the door in less than 2 minutes from callout
I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?
A wing/unit activation policy helps send out warnings to members of a possible activation. These days it is easier than ever to set up a distribution list that will fire off a short message via SMS, IM and email at the same time with the pertinent data to get a person moving.
I'm way to new to have been on a callout, but realistically, what is a normal time from notification to on scene time?
There is no "normal" time because every squadron is different.
But to use myself as an example, I work 5 minutes away from my home, and both work and home are 15-20 minutes away from the airport where our squadron meets. I also have more leeway than most people as I have my own office with a closet. I could realistically change at my office if I keep a spare uniform there (I don't have the spare cash for that yet. Also, ABU rollout... so waiting on that.)
Add a 15-30 minute buffer for a callout during rush hour.
Depending on timing and assets in place, the callout can be much faster (like the time we got a call as people were prepping for our regular meeting. That must have been a record!)
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 13, 2016, 06:35:44 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 06:28:25 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 13, 2016, 06:23:39 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:19:28 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:48:47 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 05:44:59 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 05:43:08 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 13, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
If someone is going to bleed out, they probably did so before CAP even got the phone call.
I'm not saying don't act with a sense of urgency, but I am saying that we don't throw the rule book out the window because "someone needs our help". Every emergency response organization has a rule book.
Nice point!!! As a firefighter we always preach scene safety and ORM along with the adage "Risk small to save small, risk big to save big". Not saying that CAP follows this as a responding agency, but SOP's, Policy, and Procedures are in place for a reason, to keep people from getting hurt or killed.
Yea, I wasn't going to make that point,but what's our typical "call" time? 2-4 hours?
Maybe even longer!!! it's not like we have to follow DoD ART times and be out the door in less than 2 minutes from callout
I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?
A wing/unit activation policy helps send out warnings to members of a possible activation. These days it is easier than ever to set up a distribution list that will fire off a short message via SMS, IM and email at the same time with the pertinent data to get a person moving.
I'm way to new to have been on a callout, but realistically, what is a normal time from notification to on scene time?
There is no "normal" time because every squadron is different.
But to use myself as an example, I work 5 minutes away from my home, and both work and home are 15-20 minutes away from the airport where our squadron meets. I also have more leeway than most people as I have my own office with a closet. I could realistically change at my office if I keep a spare uniform there (I don't have the spare cash for that yet. Also, ABU rollout... so waiting on that.)
Add a 15-30 minute buffer for a callout during rush hour.
Depending on timing and assets in place, the callout can be much faster (like the time we got a call as people were prepping for our regular meeting. That must have been a record!)
Not bad!!!
That being said, there are circumstances that in theory could make things much longer, from stalled trains to snarled traffic jams. Or just Murphy playing with our scheduled lives.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:19:28 PM
I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?
I would think that in many cases the biggest delay might be from the time that a farmer calls 911 to say he saw a plane looking like it was going down behind the hills in the distance .... to the time AFRCC actually gets called. Here in my area the first responders would be police and sheriff helicopters. I do not have a clue as to how long they search before calling up AFRCC(?)
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 13, 2016, 06:23:39 PM
A wing/unit activation policy helps send out warnings to members of a possible activation. These days it is easier than ever to set up a distribution list that will fire off a short message via SMS, IM and email at the same time with the pertinent data to get a person moving.
I have a system that ICs have access to a web page where they can send E-mail, voice and SMS based on qualification and unit membership very quickly. Come to the National Conference to see it!
Quote from: etodd on May 13, 2016, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:19:28 PM
I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?
I would think that in many cases the biggest delay might be from the time that a farmer calls 911 to say he saw a plane looking like it was going down behind the hills in the distance .... to the time AFRCC actually gets called. Here in my area the first responders would be police and sheriff helicopters. I do not have a clue as to how long they search before calling up AFRCC(?)
AFRCC doesn't need someone calling in. They get a ping, IIRC, get a second ping, then start calling us.
Quote from: etodd on May 13, 2016, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:19:28 PM
I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?
I would think that in many cases the biggest delay might be from the time that a farmer calls 911 to say he saw a plane looking like it was going down behind the hills in the distance .... to the time AFRCC actually gets called. Here in my area the first responders would be police and sheriff helicopters. I do not have a clue as to how long they search before calling up AFRCC(?)
Hopefully those farmers aren't from Wisconsin. We had a plane go down and was witnessed, but no one said anything until the Sheriffs department was out looking the next day. Before anyone asks, it was an experimental without a serviceable ELT
Quote from: JeffDG on May 13, 2016, 07:18:15 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 13, 2016, 06:23:39 PM
A wing/unit activation policy helps send out warnings to members of a possible activation. These days it is easier than ever to set up a distribution list that will fire off a short message via SMS, IM and email at the same time with the pertinent data to get a person moving.
I have a system that ICs have access to a web page where they can send E-mail, voice and SMS based on qualification and unit membership very quickly. Come to the National Conference to see it!
I wish I could go to the NC
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 13, 2016, 07:19:28 PM
Quote from: etodd on May 13, 2016, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:19:28 PM
I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?
I would think that in many cases the biggest delay might be from the time that a farmer calls 911 to say he saw a plane looking like it was going down behind the hills in the distance .... to the time AFRCC actually gets called. Here in my area the first responders would be police and sheriff helicopters. I do not have a clue as to how long they search before calling up AFRCC(?)
Hopefully those farmers aren't from Wisconsin. We had a plane go down and was witnessed, but no one said anything until the Sheriffs department was out looking the next day. Before anyone asks, it was an experimental without a serviceable ELT
A couple years ago, a plane crashed in the middle of Nashville International Airport, and nobody noticed until morning.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 07:18:51 PM
Quote from: etodd on May 13, 2016, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:19:28 PM
I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?
I would think that in many cases the biggest delay might be from the time that a farmer calls 911 to say he saw a plane looking like it was going down behind the hills in the distance .... to the time AFRCC actually gets called. Here in my area the first responders would be police and sheriff helicopters. I do not have a clue as to how long they search before calling up AFRCC(?)
AFRCC doesn't need someone calling in. They get a ping, IIRC, get a second ping, then start calling us.
Except of both true distress missions our wing had last year, neither had a functioning ELT (that got heard anyways). They were both family/friend overdue activations.
And they happened pretty quickly, within a couple/few hours from the "I haven't seen John" call I'd say. But certainly not minutes.
Actually, the AFRCC calls the agency designated by the state MOU. In some states that is CAP in others, it may be the EMA, local sheriff, Highway patrol etc. If the agency decides they want CAP to help, then we get a call. In some states the Agency in charge has already told AFRCC "call CAP for missing aircraft or beacons", BUT that does NOT make CAP the agency in charge of the search, it still falls under the MOU.
In the event of a reported missing aircraft without a beacon hit, they will first initiate an "ALLNOT" which notifies all of the airports, towers, and center controllers along the projected or reported route to do a (ramp) check for the missing aircraft. Once that's been done, and the aircraft isn't located, then they notify the agency designated by the state MOU, and the chain proceeds as noted before. That's why we seldom get a call before midnight, it takes time to progress through the required actions.
Once CAP is notified, (in our wing) it usually takes 1-2 hours for the IC to round up a crew and get them airborne, depending on what area of the state the incident is in. Less in urban areas where people live close by the airport, a bit longer in rural areas where they have to drive a bit to get to the aircraft.
As Al said, AFRCC calls the agency which the state MOU says to call, which in most cases is not CAP, as discussed in this thread http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=20949.msg38468 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=20949.msg38468)
As for the procedure, the ALNOT (Alert Notice) is created by the FAA, which sends a copy to RCC. The process is explained in FAA Order JO 7110.10.
First, FAA decides if a plane is overdue or missing. For a plane on a flight plan, they have 30 minutes from last report before it's considered overdue. For a plane not on a flight plan, it's considered overdue with a report from a "reliable source," at least one hour after the plane was due at its destination. In all cases, additional evidence may speed up the process.
Next step is a comm check to other FAA facilities asking about the aircraft. This is allowed to take up to 30 minutes (total time now 1 hour to 1.5 hours).
If plane still not found, an Information Request (INREQ) is initiated. A max of 1 hour is given for this to be completed (elapsed time 2 to 2.5 hours).
If the INREQ is negative, an ALNOT is issued, distribution includes RCC. FAA is supposed to call RCC within 10 minutes to verify receipt. Again, FAA has an hour to resolve this. They notify RCC at resolution or at the end of an hour if no resolution (ET now 3 to 3.5 hrs).
As for AFRCC, they open up an incident upon receipt of an ALNOT, Sarsat hit or other notification of possible distress. They have up to two hours to resolve it before going to mission. Again, they can go to mission sooner if other information is available.
In 2014, AFRCC had 6,603 incidents which resulted in 654 missions. In 2008, the last year before Sarsat stopped listening to 121.5, they had 7,595 incidents resulting in 2,344 missions. These are all incidents and missions, not just missing aircraft and beacons.
Missing aircraft missions - 70 in 2008 and 49 in 2014.
Beacon missions - 2,034 in 2008 and 380 in 2014.
Mike
"We value all our 'volunteer professionals.'"
"We comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act."
And your mum sells whelks in Hull.
Cyborg, seriously, let it go. Find something better to do with your time then agonizing over an organization
that your personal circumstances did not allow you to participate with any more.
You've had PM conversations with any number of us over the recent couple of years, and they are as
full of excuses as they are legitimate reasons.
CAP is >not< "do whatever you feel like, whenever you feel like it, if you're up to it that day and
don't have 12 other things conflicting, 14 excuses why "I can't" and a chip on your shoulder about the
world of CAP oppressing you, specifically, and with a directed action."
CAP squadrons and other echelons are not social clubs designed for you to feel like you belong somewhere. First and
foremost they have work to do and a mission to accomplish. If reasonable accommodations can be made for
personal circumstances, they should be, but if you're not there, you're not there, and to expect to be promoted,
decorated, or otherwise appreciated at the same level as those pulling the rope every week because "back in the day reasons",
that's not fair to anyone in the conversation.
Much of the situation you found yourself in was self-imposed, either though voluntary separation from the organization,
mistakes you made upon rejoining, a litany of personal issues CAP has no control or or influence with that
precludes you from participation, or this ongoing idea you present that you are too shy to toot your own horn or ask
for deserved accolades (but not too shy to complain publicly about not getting them).
You feel you deserved promotion, and are being discriminated against, yet can't be bothered to take the steps
necessary to close the actual issue (i.e. file a complaint). It's one or the other, not both.
A number of us offered reasonable suggestions as to how you could have continued to serve CAP without being present
for regular meetings, those were generally dismissed out of hand.
Bottom line, there is no organization of any scale or value in the world in which politics don't play a role, and
"what have you done for me lately" isn't a factor in promotions, duty assignments, or even getting invited for coffee.
Either you're holding up a corner or you aren't, and if life circumstance means you can't do that anymore, fill a shadowbox
and MOVE ON. There's no dishonor in accepting the inevitable we all have to face eventually.
Deluding yourself about the reality of the situation is painful for us to watch, won't fix the situation, and sullies your good memories
of CAP from the past.
Your opinion is noted, if inaccurate, as well as your description of "excuses."
It does not mean that your opinion is objective truth, any more than mine is...and it wasn't just about promotion, in the end. When you receive a list of "10 Things I Hate About You" from your CC (and I still have it), what more can one do?
I did ask for the "deserved accolades."
I submitted the suggestions for participation (ie telecommuting) to my CC. He disallowed them. I have on-paper proof.
I did file a complaint and was told nothing could be done.
If you don't like my opinions, you can hit the "ignore" or petition to have me banished from the board.
The fact is that CAP does not treat all its members equally, and a lot of that is down to a commander's discretion.
I would say that YOUR black-and-white, "either-you-is-or-you-ain't" mentality is one of the things wrong with CAP...even though others on here may share them does not make them truth.
I am not going to paint myself as completely innocent...but no way am I going to shoulder all the blame, as you seem to be attempting to try to get me to do.
Here I stand.
Quote from: CyBorg, dessen Name nicht in CAP gesprochen wird on May 16, 2016, 04:32:02 PM
I submitted the suggestions for participation (ie telecommuting) to my CC. He disallowed them. I have on-paper proof.
Telecommuting at the squadron level is / was not the only suggestion that was made by a long shot.
Quote from: CyBorg, dessen Name nicht in CAP gesprochen wird on May 16, 2016, 04:32:02 PM
I did file a complaint and was told nothing could be done.
That's not how properly filed complaints work. Which means you didn't actually file one properly, didn't hold the organization
to the proper procedures, or didn't actually have grounds for a sustainable complaint, which would have to have been based
on the discrimination you allege here on a regular basis.
Quote from: CyBorg, dessen Name nicht in CAP gesprochen wird on May 16, 2016, 04:32:02 PM
The fact is that CAP does not treat all its members equally, and a lot of that is down to a commander's discretion.
The fact is that not all member
contribute equally, and want to hold the organization responsible for their failings or
personal circumstances, or get frustrated when the organization has to move forward despite their not being able to come along for the ride.
BTDT myself. In the end, it was change / adapt or find other things to do with my free time.
Quote from: CyBorg, dessen Name nicht in CAP gesprochen wird on May 16, 2016, 04:32:02 PM
I would say that YOUR black-and-white, "either-you-is-or-you-ain't" mentality is one of the things wrong with CAP...even though others on here may share them does not make them truth.
We only have the situation as you have presented it here, evolving to fit the narrative as you filled in the blanks.
Some people accept reality and adapt, others complain they wish reality was different, either way, reality has no
interest in the conversation. It simply "is".
Unless I am convinced by CAP walking its talk or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the regs alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by conscience, experience and a reading of the regs consonant with the experience of a Master rated Administrative Officer who does know how to file complaints through the chain. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen.
Rough paraphrase of Martin Luther, 1521
Jay-zus! Again? Still? I had a girlfriend in high school that was like this. We'd break up, she said she'd never speak to me again, and a day/week/month later, we're back in the saddle again, so to speak. CAP ain't for you, shipmate. Go to a random password generator, make a 50 character strong, change your CAPTalk password to it, and don't write it down....
Bang-a-rang..... Oh wait I meant boomerang...
Is this what is considered beating a dead horse?
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 16, 2016, 05:27:33 PM
Is this what is considered beating a dead horse?
It was the last 3-4 go arounds.
Quote from: CyBorg, dessen Name nicht in CAP gesprochen wird on May 16, 2016, 04:50:46 PM
Unless I am convinced by CAP walking its talk or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the regs alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by conscience, experience and a reading of the regs consonant with the experience of a Master rated Administrative Officer who does know how to file complaints through the chain. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen.
Rough paraphrase of Martin Luther, 1521
Okay....once again for the record.
Join CAP.
Do your time. Jump through the required hoops.
Get Promoted.
The boat to fix any past injustices has sailed and nothing can be done about it.
If the solution to getting what you want is not acceptable........please.....just go away. I know it is hard for you....and I am not trying to be mean.....but really......you are not doing yourself, CAP or CAPTALK any good beating this dead and buried horse.
Quote from: Al Sayre on May 16, 2016, 11:57:21 AM
Actually, the AFRCC calls the agency designated by the state MOU.
Do the MOUs limit who can call the AFRCC? While the MOU may tell the AFRCC who to call, I've wondered if the AFRCC can only accept calls from specific agencies.
Quote from: Fubar on May 18, 2016, 05:32:42 AM
Quote from: Al Sayre on May 16, 2016, 11:57:21 AM
Actually, the AFRCC calls the agency designated by the state MOU.
Do the MOUs limit who can call the AFRCC? While the MOU may tell the AFRCC who to call, I've wondered if the AFRCC can only accept calls from specific agencies.
Nope. Any individual and/or agency may call AFRCC and request assistance. Having an MOU before hand makes things easier....but it is not required.