Poor Pilot Performance Concerns Not Limited to Regionals?

[a2capt]

Wow, I totally didn't even think about the fuel issues either.  The Letter didn't mention it in specifics, but if they loaded and filed within the regs they used up their reserve in the midst of all this, too.

[blackrain]

I've heard 20 minutes of fuel remaining as a number being tossed around.

Imagine if they were flying to and east coast destination with IMC up and down the coast. They could have found themselves 30 minutes out over the Atlantic with 20 minutes of fuel left.  They would be the second crew in the last year to ditch in an A320.

Any bets on how many crews are now setting the alarm on their watches for the approximate time to begin descent as part of their checklist?

[Nick]

Any bets on how many crews are now setting the alarm on their watches for the approximate time to begin descent as part of their checklist?

While that's not a bad idea ... continually listening to the radio seems to be a real simple concept.

[blackrain]

Any bets on how many crews are now setting the alarm on their watches for the approximate time to begin descent as part of their checklist?

While that's not a bad idea ... continually listening to the radio seems to be a real simple concept.

You actually touched on an issue with our air traffic control system. The radios used by ATC and aircraft are really outdated. Aircraft radios us AM while everybody else uses FM.

Many land based systems have a paging feature for a particular person or radio. I don't know why a radio installed in a particular aircraft can't be linked to that aircrafts N number by ATC with a more effective paging system. Aren't transponders already configured with a discreet (MODE S ?) code. Ping that crew only, at the beginning of the transmission, so they know that on a crowded frequency the following instructions are for them.

I admit I'm not an electrical engineer....the devil's in the details and all it takes is money.

[SilverEagle2]

^^
If you study the differences in AM and FM, you will find a good reason why the FAA still uses AM. Wavelength, reflectivity, distance, etc...all things that FM would require additional/expensive infrastructure to provide comparable functionality. Of all things at the ATC disposal, AM radios are the least troublesome and most reliable.

My 2 cents.

[a2capt]

As well, the system generally works very well. If they were that out of sync with their situational awareness, no amount  of paging would have worked. It should not have to come down to paging. Everyone listens on the same channel. Whats relevant to one may be relevant to many other aircraft.

Heck, they have a company text readout, they didn't pay that any attention either.

[blackrain]

As well, the system generally works very well. If they were that out of sync with their situational awareness, no amount  of paging would have worked. It should not have to come down to paging. Everyone listens on the same channel. Whats relevant to one may be relevant to many other aircraft.

Heck, they have a company text readout, they didn't pay that any attention either.

All valid points. I'm thinking from a human factors perspective it's easy to tune things out sometimes. Anyone with a wife and kids understands that.    I'm not saying filter out the comms on a frequency,  just for the reason you mentioned. Everyone needs to hear the cross talk but say for instance you have time sensitive ATC instructions then some way to alert that specific crew that they are being directed to change course to avoid a traffic conflict could be a lifesaver. We've all had a radio call garbled where you couldn't say for sure whether they were talking to you or another aircraft. May not have helped in this case but a tone in only your headset should be an attention getter.

[PHall]

Any bets on how many crews are now setting the alarm on their watches for the approximate time to begin descent as part of their checklist?

While that's not a bad idea ... continually listening to the radio seems to be a real simple concept.

You actually touched on an issue with our air traffic control system. The radios used by ATC and aircraft are really outdated. Aircraft radios us AM while everybody else uses FM.

Many land based systems have a paging feature for a particular person or radio. I don't know why a radio installed in a particular aircraft can't be linked to that aircrafts N number by ATC with a more effective paging system. Aren't transponders already configured with a discreet (MODE S ?) code. Ping that crew only, at the beginning of the transmission, so they know that on a crowded frequency the following instructions are for them.

I admit I'm not an electrical engineer....the devil's in the details and all it takes is money.

There already is such as system, it's called SELCAL (SELective CALling). It's used on the HF radios when crossing oceans.

[a2capt]

..and to be expected, they have appealed the revocation.

I'm sorry, based on the seriousness of what they did- It's absolutely astounding it turned out that nothing happened because of it, and that it served as a test for the systems that should have reacted and didn't.

You have an aircraft full of people, heck, it can be one even. They put their faith in the system that what goes on up in front of that locked door will be professional.

This was NOT professional. Not in the least.

[DG]

These guys fell asleep in the cockpit.

I don't care what anybody says.

They both fell asleep.

[a2capt]

I don't care what anybody says.
They both fell asleep.

Uhh.. yeah, I've kinda subscribed to this myself, too. Didn't matter what they say, either way they were screwed.

..and if not they might as well have, because .. after all that, *who was FLYING the plane*?!!?

They could have been headed for some nasty as all get out clear air turbulence as reported by another aircraft, a TFR could have popped up (I know, FL037....)

Something serious could have been going on and they were not able to be raised by any means.

[a2capt]

The Northwest Airlines pilots who flew past their destination city of Minneapolis, Minnesota, on October 21 have blamed air traffic controllers for the snafu.

You have got to be kidding.


What was ATC suppose to do, send up that Gulfstream with 'F' 'A' 'A' in the windows and come up beside them, and board like the open seas?


They tried to raise them, they tried visual and aural communications methods. These guys were simply out of it.

[flynd94]

The Northwest Airlines pilots who flew past their destination city of Minneapolis, Minnesota, on October 21 have blamed air traffic controllers for the snafu.

You have got to be kidding.


What was ATC suppose to do, send up that Gulfstream with 'F' 'A' 'A' in the windows and come up beside them, and board like the open seas?


They tried to raise them, they tried visual and aural communications methods. These guys were simply out of it.

Actually, there is fault to be found with ATC.  They were in the middle of a shift change, incoming controller wasn't informed that the aircraft was NORDO.  Just like anything in aviation, it was a chain of events.  There is a lot of blame to go around, I just find it interesting that none of the controllers have lost their licenses.   

[Eclipse]

The Northwest Airlines pilots who flew past their destination city of Minneapolis, Minnesota, on October 21 have blamed air traffic controllers for the snafu.

You have got to be kidding.

What was ATC suppose to do, send up that Gulfstream with 'F' 'A' 'A' in the windows and come up beside them, and board like the open seas?

[flyguy06]

Ya know everyone keeps saying the "Northwest Flight" this, the "Northwest" flight that. I thought Northwest wa bought out by Delta last year? Its funny, when somethingbad happens Delta promotes it as a Northwest flight. But Delta owns Northwest now. They have neglected to mention any of that though.

[Pingree1492]

Ya know everyone keeps saying the "Northwest Flight" this, the "Northwest" flight that. I thought Northwest wa bought out by Delta last year? Its funny, when somethingbad happens Delta promotes it as a Northwest flight. But Delta owns Northwest now. They have neglected to mention any of that though.

To my knowledge, Northwest still kinda operates on it's own.  Now, I have NO idea about any of the upper level stuff going on in either airline, but I took a flight on Northwest this year, I went to a Northwest ticket counter, and everything was marked Northwest.  The only gist I got that a merger had happened was the flight attendant saying something about how Northwest AND Delta airlines welcoming me to XYZ city.  Now, I wasn't paying any particular attention to logos, etc, so maybe that has changed to incorporate something from Delta airlines, but from almost everything on that flight, I wouldn't have known that Northwest had gotten bought out.

[DG]

The Northwest Airlines pilots who flew past their destination city of Minneapolis, Minnesota, on October 21 have blamed air traffic controllers for the snafu.

You have got to be kidding.


What was ATC suppose to do, send up that Gulfstream with 'F' 'A' 'A' in the windows and come up beside them, and board like the open seas?


They tried to raise them, they tried visual and aural communications methods. These guys were simply out of it.

Actually, there is fault to be found with ATC.  They were in the middle of a shift change, incoming controller wasn't informed that the aircraft was NORDO.  Just like anything in aviation, it was a chain of events.  There is a lot of blame to go around, I just find it interesting that none of the controllers have lost their licenses.

Fact:  No radio calls to ATC for 77 minutes.

Come on, Keith.  77 Minutes!

Your comments imply that is acceptable practice to you.

Advise you not put your money on that horse.

They fell asleep.

BIG mistake not to have told the truth in the first place.

If they had, they would be fine, eventually.

But not now.

[sparks]

Transition from Northwest to Delta livery will take time and lots of money. Other than FA Gate Attendant announcements the first transition signs probably will be the elimination of Northwest ticket counters where both Delta and Northwest service an airport. Already happened at the airport I use.

It will be interesting to see if Delta designs a different paint scheme for aircraft instead of what they and Northwest are currently using.

[flyguy06]

I live in ATlanta (Delta town) I have many close firends thatare Delta pilots. We have a Delta ticket agent in my squadron.

The Delta merger happened earlier this year. All crew members should be wearing the same uniform. The logo has changed to a solid red Delta peak. Selniotiry lists have been merged already. I think the thing is they havent painted all the Northwest planes yet. And the cal signs with the FAA probably havent beenchanged over yet but Delta definantly owns Northwest now. Many of my NWA piots friends are not happy about it either.

[Nick]

It will be interesting to see if Delta designs a different paint scheme for aircraft instead of what they and Northwest are currently using.

You mean something like American's?