ATP may be required

[Flying Pig]

Stand by kids.  The House is submitting a bill wanting to require ALL regional carrier pilots, not just captains, to have an ATP before they can be hired.  So the days of getting on with 800 hrs and some multi-time may be over.  So all you working CFI's out there, start studying for your ATP and expect to be in that Piper Tomahawk a little longer.

---------------------------

FAA Administrator Babbitt, testifying before the House Transportation and Infrastructure Aviation Subcommittee, said that some regional carriers have failed to respond to his June 24 letter asking them to upgrade record disclosure policy for pilot applicants and improve flight operations quality assurance programs.

Babbitt told lawmakers, "I am prepared to make those who are unresponsive known to the general public," by the end of September. The letter, which went to 104 regional lines and eight of their unions, demonstrated the need for legislation mandating airline safety upgrades, according to Aviation Subcommittee Chairman Jerry Costello (D-Illinois).

Babbitt vowed to shore up what he described as uneven professionalism in the airline industry. "Although professionalism prevails in the vast majority of the aviation workforce, it is not uniform. The standards are the same; the training is the same, but the mentality is not the same."

Witnesses clashed over a provision in a pending House aviation safety reform bill that would mandate that all airline pilots, not just captains as under current law, have an Air Transport License, which requires at least 1,500 hours of flying time.

Airline Pilots Association President John Prater backed the tougher licensing standard, saying it was unacceptable for airlines to hire young, relatively inexperienced pilots to help fly aircraft that carry large numbers of passengers.

Babbitt urged a compromise that melded experience with training. He noted that although each of the two pilots involved in the January 1982 Air Florida crash in Washington had thousands of hours of flying time, they lacked training in the use of aircraft de-icing systems.

The Wall Street Journal reported on September 24 that NATCA members on Wednesday ratified a labor contract with the FAA that will see the government paying out an extra $700 million over the next three years. According to the Journal, the pact will raise the salaries of veteran air traffic controllers by an average of $9,000 over three years, while new hires will see a bump of about $45,000 to their base pay over the same period. The ratification ends a three-year conflict between the union and the agency.

[heliodoc]

Yep

I am already ready for this being at my low "time buildin " days

Reality has come home to roost....

[Flying Pig]

What I still find interesting, and I guess its just the nature of the beast, but I can have a full 1000 hrs of high performance time consisting of actual single pilot IFR, x-country, night, NVG, and mountain PIC time but a CFI with 1500 hrs of right seat Tomahawk time is still more "qualified".  Oh well.  Im glad Im not looking for a job!

[Thrashed]

It's the old quantity vs. quality argument.  Nothing new.  The fact that under-standard pilots are getting hired has nothing to do with either.  The 1500 hours is a move in the right direction.  I had 4000 when hired at a regional.  Times were different then.

[flyguy06]

Yeah, thats old news. We already know ita going to be a requirement. I have mixed feelings about if I think thats a good idea or not. Obviously personally its gonna hold me back a while to get to that goal. But I understand their logic to a certain extent.

People seem to equate hours with experience. This goes back to my other thread where I was talking about the term "building time" hours dont neccessarily mean experience. For example who has more experience? The guy with 2000 hours flying in day VFR going from ATL to CHS flying staright andlevel or the guy with 500 hours that mainly flies at night in hard IMC down to minimums.

I mean the military takes a 23 year old with about 250 hours total time and puts him behind a C-130 or a F-15. And the military turns out the best pilots in the world inmy opinion.

So hours dont equal a better pilot neccessarily.

[Flying Pig]

I posted some time ago stating, "Do you have 1000 hrs or 1 hour 1000 times."

[Thrashed]

You have to start somewhere.  Hours is the best way to start screening pilots on paper.  The interview and simulator are the only good ways to hire pilots. The captain that crashed in Buffalo had a long history of training failures.  If he would have been fired for failing, the accident may not have happend.  It comes down to supply and demand.  When the demand for pilots is high then the supply of qualified pilots is low. As a checkairman (pre 9/11), I was doing IOE (in a RJ) with pilots that had 50 hours multi-time. Now I'm on the 777 and everyone has over 10,000 hours.  It's a whole different environment.

[heliodoc]

Yep

Going  from 50 hrs ME piston to an RJ...well even I at my whopping 15 hrs multi, WOULD be able to tell the difference. I would be able to tell anyone that I would need a little more than 50 hours to be anywhere near comfortable.  But I am imagining the mentorship levels at the regional levels are somewhat like finding a REAL good CFI in CAP.....few and far between. That were responsible enough to reaally get people trained and well beyond proficiency.  I would imagine there's QUITE a difference in those two operating environments, anyway.

But I am sure there are folks out there.  But you know some of today's pilots...... barely enough time in the cockpit, to even be that good at systems.  But I for one, will not doubt you , Thrash.

[Flying Pig]

Whats bad, is when you have relatively low time pilots who, themselves, may have lower time co-pilots, everyone is still trying to build THIER hours and not looking to share or pass on knowledge.  They see the guy sitting next to them as a possible threat.
Ive never worked in the airline or private aviation industry, but can tell you it can be  like that in my AO.

[heliodoc]

Rob

What little I have gathered in my whooping little time flying....

It is cut throat business with both low time pilots and even lower time biz admin majors running the airlines....eerrrr running them in to the ground........ Crandall's (AMR) Checci/ now Anderson fame NWA/ Delta those guys like Anderson...famous for being bigshots at McDonalds and coming back for the NWA / Delta debacle..

As these morons have said at Delta...."there will be no more layoffs"....RIIIIGHT

[Thrashed]

It is a business.  The "businessmen" are there to make money.  They do it anyway they can, until people start dying and the public cries for change.  They are balancing: "how cheap can we operate without killing a few people?"  800 hour pilots will pay $10,000 for their sim training and get paid $15/hour to get a chance to fly an "airliner".  I don't fault the pilots.  Who would turn down a job like that?  I'd rather fly an airliner for $15/hr than teach in a C152 for $10/hour.  There is no real easy answer.  Maybe changing the hour requirements will help.

[flyguy06]

You have to start somewhere.  Hours is the best way to start screening pilots on paper.  The interview and simulator are the only good ways to hire pilots. The captain that crashed in Buffalo had a long history of training failures.  If he would have been fired for failing, the accident may not have happend.  It comes down to supply and demand.  When the demand for pilots is high then the supply of qualified pilots is low. As a checkairman (pre 9/11), I was doing IOE (in a RJ) with pilots that had 50 hours multi-time. Now I'm on the 777 and everyone has over 10,000 hours.  It's a whole different environment.

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

[flyguy06]

Another question is people like to rag onthe low time FO. But the capt has at least 1500 hours and experience withthatequipment. Doesnt that count for something? I honestlly dont know.

[Mustang]

I watched that hearing, and it was a very important one as far as the regional carriers go.

I almost leaped out of my chair and cheered when ALPA President Prater made the observation that paying pilots just $1 per passenger per hour would make the compensation problem go away.  I have said for years that airline crews would make more money if their employers paid them nothing at all, and passengers simply dropped a $5 or a $10 in a tip jar on their way out the door, or tipped flight attendants a buck for getting them a drink or blanket.

Seems everyone but the regionals themselves can see how pilot compensation affects fatigue, which in turn affects safety.  In the last hiring boom, we saw that the regionals manipulate their hiring minimums in order to attract candidates.  Can't find any 1000-hr pilots willing to work for $18k/yr?  Lower your hiring minimums to 750 hrs...or 500...or 250...til you find enough people willing to accept your wages. By fixing the bar at an ATP certificate, carriers will be forced to improve their compensation and benefits if they cannot attract sufficient numbers of applicants--just as it should be.   

What I found most incredulous from that hearing was the rep from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University who was there to push an exemption to the ATP proposal for graduates of accredited university aviation programs. Their claim is that quality of training trumps quantity of experience, which can be true, but whether a university yields a better pilot than an FBO or non-university-affiliated flight school is debatable.   What isn't debatable in my book is the simple fact that you cannot teach good judgment--and that is the quality that a 1500 hour pilot should have a good deal more of than a 300-hour ERAU grad.  Like the saying goes, "Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment."

Thankfully, ALL of the airline pilots testifying in the hearing--which included US Airways pilot Jeffrey Skiles, who was the first officer aboard the flight that safely ditched in the Hudson River in January--were overwhelmingly against the university's proposal; all said that an ATP ticket should be the minimum entry requirement for any Part 121 airline cockpit.

If enacted as written, the ATP requirement will not go into effect until 3 years after the bill becomes law.

[Mustang]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

There are plenty of flying jobs to build experience that don't require carrying paying passengers. Flight instructing, flying cargo, aerial survey, banner-towing, pipeline patrol, etc--oh, and CAP, too.   As the pilots in the afore-mentioned hearing said, an airline cockpit is where you go AFTER you've proven yourself as a pilot. It's not the place to gain experience.

[CASH172]

What I found most incredulous from that hearing was the rep from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University who was there to push an exemption to the ATP proposal for graduates of accredited university aviation programs. Their claim is that quality of training trumps quantity of experience, which can be true, but whether a university yields a better pilot than an FBO or non-university-affiliated flight school is debatable.   What isn't debatable in my book is the simple fact that you cannot teach good judgment--and that is the quality that a 1500 hour pilot should have a good deal more of than a 300-hour ERAU grad.  Like the saying goes, "Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment."

He's trying to be able to continue to sell his university training program.  An ERAU grad at the very minimum could have as few as 90 hrs TT and with up to 50 hrs FTD time and be a Comm AMEL.  Of course anyone knows that is nowhere near ready to step into the right seat of a 121 operator. 

The issue that will plague most univeristies is that students will spent over 100K to get their degree and ratings and they'll be stuck just trying to build hours whatever way they can.  I guarantee some will do exactly what everyone here is afraid of, fly back and forth between the same two XC airports 1500 times. 

Everyone also says that one could build experience giving flight instruction a lot.  The 1500 time is no biggie, but the 500 XC can be a huge obstacle that most instructors never reach just simply teaching. 

[Mustang]

He's trying to be able to continue to sell his university training program.  An ERAU grad at the very minimum could have as few as 90 hrs TT and with up to 50 hrs FTD time and be a Comm AMEL.  Of course anyone knows that is nowhere near ready to step into the right seat of a 121 operator. 

The issue that will plague most univeristies is that students will spent over 100K to get their degree and ratings and they'll be stuck just trying to build hours whatever way they can.  I guarantee some will do exactly what everyone here is afraid of, fly back and forth between the same two XC airports 1500 times. 

You're quite right -- and good luck making the payments on that $100k-200k student loan on what most entry-level flying jobs pay!   

It's not just the university programs who fear this new development, it's also all the "zero-to-hero" flight schools like Airline Transport Professionals, FlightSafety Academy and Delta Connection Academy -- all of whom claim that their graduates have a leg up on the competition due to the quality of their training.

But ultimately, the real showdown will be when all the regionals and their mainline partners are forced to change their business models because there simply aren't enough available pilots with ATP tickets willing to work for $18k or even $30k/yr!  Somewhat coincidentally, this provision will kick in right as the Age 65 rule starts forcing retirements.  I'd count on the airlines all lining up to head back into bankruptcy court and/or crying to Congress that they just can't afford to pay regional pilots more than $10/hour.

Everyone also says that one could build experience giving flight instruction a lot.  The 1500 time is no biggie, but the 500 XC can be a huge obstacle that most instructors never reach just simply teaching.

That's actually a Good Thing, because it'll force CFIs to leave their comfort zone of flight instructing and go out and get some real flying experience -- flying charter, night freight, etc.

[DG]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

[Spike]

Every day the FAA or the FED takes the fun out of flying just a little bit more.

I don't fly for airlines or instruct, I just fly to have fun.  However, it is very apparent that the FAA and Govt are reacting too quick to isolated incidents. 

Requiring more time in training/ more testing will actually hurt the industry, not help it.

[Thrashed]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

Shouldn't you fire a guy who failed 5?

Get experience flying like I did: flight intruction, traffic watch, cargo, corporate, charter, then the airlines.  It's not easy, but you shouldn't go from flight school to the airlines. 

[PHall]

Every day the FAA or the FED takes the fun out of flying just a little bit more.

I don't fly for airlines or instruct, I just fly to have fun.  However, it is very apparent that the FAA and Govt are reacting too quick to isolated incidents. 

Requiring more time in training/ more testing will actually hurt the industry, not help it.

What?

[RiverAux]

Seems clear to me that the supply of pilots is so great that the airlines can demand that they work for low pay.

Seems to me that if pilots want to be paid more, the supply of pilots needs to be reduced. 

Although CAP isn't out there making significant numbers of pilots, one of our overall jobs is to raise interest in aviation, primarily through our cadet program, and that we are basically part of the "problem".  Since we help get kids fired up about being pilots, we're helping add to the apparent glut. 

I'm not saying that we should stop our AE program in order to help commercial pilots make more money, just saying that we're one of the reasons behind this situation.

How about the government stop any student loan or grant programs that go towards non-military pilot training?  There are plenty of other career fields with people shortages and maybe we should be trying to draw more students into them rather than a field where we apparently have too many?  I really have no idea if there are such opportunities out there in the first place, but if there are, then maybe we should re-think them. 

Market forces are always going to dominate in setting pay scales for this sort of job. 

[Flying Pig]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

I think your misunderstanding. ATP is just the name of the rating.  You dont actually need one to fly for the airline at this point in time.

[flyguy06]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

There are plenty of flying jobs to build experience that don't require carrying paying passengers. Flight instructing, flying cargo, aerial survey, banner-towing, pipeline patrol, etc--oh, and CAP, too.   As the pilots in the afore-mentioned hearing said, an airline cockpit is where you go AFTER you've proven yourself as a pilot. It's not the place to gain experience.

I used to think the same thing. But I found out that flying a Cessna 172 s nothing like flying a CRJ. Fliyng a cessna 172 isnt going to help learn about the electrical system on a CRJ or the FMS or auto throttles. You dont deal with that stuff being a flight instructor.

What are the take off mins at a 121 operations? Being a flight instructor at a local FBO isnt going to prepare you to understand the FOM at an airline. I wish it did believe me. But it wont.

[flyguy06]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

Shouldn't you fire a guy who failed 5?

Get experience flying like I did: flight intruction, traffic watch, cargo, corporate, charter, then the airlines.  It's not easy, but you shouldn't go from flight school to the airlines.

I agree you shouldnt go from flight school to airline yet it is dont all the time overseas. But again a corporate outfit isnt going tohire you nless you know someone or you have like 3000 hours and a type rating. So how do you get a type rating if you never get a chance to fly it?

I am not trying to aruge the point. I am honestly trying to understand the industry.

[flyguy06]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

DG,

AnATP is a sepearte license like a Private pilot lisence or a commercial pilots license. The ATP is the next higher up license. You need an ATP to be PIC or captain of a 121 operation and most corporate or part 135 charter operations. you only need a commercial licesnse to be hired to fly as a pilot. But to be the Pilot in command (PIC) you need an ATP license.

[DC]

The quote function is awesome.

You should try it out sometime.

[flyguy06]

Seems clear to me that the supply of pilots is so great that the airlines can demand that they work for low pay.

Seems to me that if pilots want to be paid more, the supply of pilots needs to be reduced. 

Although CAP isn't out there making significant numbers of pilots, one of our overall jobs is to raise interest in aviation, primarily through our cadet program, and that we are basically part of the "problem".  Since we help get kids fired up about being pilots, we're helping add to the apparent glut. 

I'm not saying that we should stop our AE program in order to help commercial pilots make more money, just saying that we're one of the reasons behind this situation.

How about the government stop any student loan or grant programs that go towards non-military pilot training?  There are plenty of other career fields with people shortages and maybe we should be trying to draw more students into them rather than a field where we apparently have too many?  I really have no idea if there are such opportunities out there in the first place, but if there are, then maybe we should re-think them. 

Market forces are always going to dominate in setting pay scales for this sort of job.

If you had a govt programlike that then people like me could never be pilots. I wanted to be a military pilot. But when i was within the age range the requirement to fly in the militart was 20/20. I wore glasses. So military flying wasnt an option for me. I had to go the civilan route.

You are correct about the firs tpart of what you said. These youngs folks have wahst called SJS(shiny jet syndrome) They will do almost anything and accept any pay just to get the opportunity to say they fly jets for a living. So when the airlines were hiring folks with 500 hours total time this flux of oyung people fresh out of flyigh tschool went for it. Now they are reaping it due to all the furloughs  and now they have no where to go.

[DG]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

DG,

AnATP is a sepearte license like a Private pilot lisence or a commercial pilots license. The ATP is the next higher up license. You need an ATP to be PIC or captain of a 121 operation and most corporate or part 135 charter operations. you only need a commercial licesnse to be hired to fly as a pilot. But to be the Pilot in command (PIC) you need an ATP license.

OK.

So then the solution should be easy.

If you want to fly for an airline, no problem, get an airline transport rating.

[flyguy06]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

Shouldn't you fire a guy who failed 5?

Get experience flying like I did: flight intruction, traffic watch, cargo, corporate, charter, then the airlines.  It's not easy, but you shouldn't go from flight school to the airlines.

Yes a person that has failed 5 checkrides at that airline should be fired but Ithink the non flying media reported ths stoyr incorrectly andledft the non flying public with a misconception.

Did the Capatin fail 5 checkrides at the company? Or di he fail 5 checkrides thoighour his flight training career. meaning did he fail his fail his private piot checkride thenpass it. then laster on fail an instrument rating checkride then later when he got to his airline fail a prficiency check. The FAA tracks checkrides throughout a persons training not just at the persons company. So I think the media didnt really have a good understanding of what "fialed 5 checkrides" means.

[flyguy06]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

Again as i said these kids want to get inthe coclpit as soon as possibleso when the airlines offered them a job at 500 hours they jumped to  it. An Air Force LT that flies C-130's probably starts off with about 500 hours.  Youhave to have 1500 hours toget an ATP. So unless you are wealthy how do you get that unles you have a flying job.

DG,

AnATP is a sepearte license like a Private pilot lisence or a commercial pilots license. The ATP is the next higher up license. You need an ATP to be PIC or captain of a 121 operation and most corporate or part 135 charter operations. you only need a commercial licesnse to be hired to fly as a pilot. But to be the Pilot in command (PIC) you need an ATP license.

OK.

So then the soluiton should be easy.

If you want to fly for an airline, no problem, get an airline transport rating.

[Thrashed]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

Shouldn't you fire a guy who failed 5?

Get experience flying like I did: flight intruction, traffic watch, cargo, corporate, charter, then the airlines.  It's not easy, but you shouldn't go from flight school to the airlines.

I agree you shouldnt go from flight school to airline yet it is dont all the time overseas. But again a corporate outfit isnt going tohire you nless you know someone or you have like 3000 hours and a type rating. So how do you get a type rating if you never get a chance to fly it?

I am not trying to aruge the point. I am honestly trying to understand the industry.

There are plenty of corporate jobs that do not require a type rating.  My first one was a Cheyenne.  There are piston planes too.  I flew C303 & C414's for someone.  None required much time or a type rating.  Corporate doesn't mean G-V, it means flying for any corporation.  There are C402 cargo, sight-seeing, airline jobs too.

[flyguy06]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

Shouldn't you fire a guy who failed 5?

Get experience flying like I did: flight intruction, traffic watch, cargo, corporate, charter, then the airlines.  It's not easy, but you shouldn't go from flight school to the airlines.

I agree you shouldnt go from flight school to airline yet it is dont all the time overseas. But again a corporate outfit isnt going tohire you nless you know someone or you have like 3000 hours and a type rating. So how do you get a type rating if you never get a chance to fly it?

I am not trying to aruge the point. I am honestly trying to understand the industry.

There are plenty of corporate jobs that do not require a type rating.  My first one was a Cheyenne.  There are piston planes too.  I flew C303 & C414's for someone.  None required much time or a type rating.  Corporate doesn't mean G-V, it means flying for any corporation.  There are C402 cargo, sight-seeing, airline jobs too.

Thats very true. My point was you need to know somebody that will give you a good recommnedation or have in the thousands of hours.

[Flying Pig]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

But you have to have a minimum of 1500 hours to get an ATP.  So thats the issue people are talking about.   Building up to 1500 hrs before you can even put in your application.

DG,

AnATP is a sepearte license like a Private pilot lisence or a commercial pilots license. The ATP is the next higher up license. You need an ATP to be PIC or captain of a 121 operation and most corporate or part 135 charter operations. you only need a commercial licesnse to be hired to fly as a pilot. But to be the Pilot in command (PIC) you need an ATP license.

OK.

So then the soluiton should be easy.

If you want to fly for an airline, no problem, get an airline transport rating.

[Thrashed]

Thats very true. My point was you need to know somebody that will give you a good recommnedation or have in the thousands of hours.

I got my first multi job with less than 100 multi and I didn't know the guy.  I went looking for work.  I worked at the FBO's and asked questions and got leads.  The guy called me on the phone because I left a business card on a WX breifing room bulletin board at the FBO.  He offered me the job over the phone. That lead to another job, then another, etc. 

[flyguy06]

thats great. How long ago was that? The world of trying to find a flying job has changed over the last three years

[Mustang]

I used to think the same thing. But I found out that flying a Cessna 172 s nothing like flying a CRJ. Fliyng a cessna 172 isnt going to help learn about the electrical system on a CRJ or the FMS or auto throttles. You dont deal with that stuff being a flight instructor.

What are the take off mins at a 121 operations? Being a flight instructor at a local FBO isnt going to prepare you to understand the FOM at an airline. I wish it did believe me. But it wont.

Great argument for leaving the flight school environment for the Part 135 world and getting some real-world flying experience where the student in the left seat isn't the limiting factor, your judgment and abilities are.

Moreover, that problem is one of initiative, nothing more. Everybody knows somebody who flies RJs. I had copies of all of SkyWest's ground school materials before I even had my instrument ticket -- incidentally, their takeoff mins are RVR 600/600/600.  From there, it's just a matter of self-study.  Learning the ins and outs of the G1000 is a sufficient head-start on how FMSs operate, and I believe only the EMB 170/190 have autothrottles. 

More to the point, IFR is IFR, regardless of whether you're in a 172 or a 777.  Most CFIs just don't get much IFR experience, certainly not in actual IMC, and certainly not as the pilot flying.  Yet another reason why a Part 135 job makes an excellent stepping stone between instructing and Part 121 flying.

The problem is, most CFIs end up buying the hype that instructing is the best way to build time/experience. I've never believed that, personally. I did a year's worth of aerial mapping flying, and the coast-to-coast IFR cross-country experience I accrued in the process was worth its weight in gold.  So don't rely on the flight school environment to prepare you for 121 flying -- it just won't.   Get out there and add some diversity to your experience.

[flyguy06]

^ Totally agree with that. Although in order to get that 135 job, you need 1200 hours. career changers that start at age 35. Do they have time to go work for a pt 135 and then work their way  up to a 121?

But all in all. I do agree that apt 135 is a better stepping stone to the airlines than flight instructing.

btw A crj900 has autothrottles

[MooneyMeyer]

I have 800 tt / 75 multi, and I've never instructed a single student. I got all my flying experience after I got all my certificates by ferrying aircraft for a few a/c dealers and working for contacts I made while being employed as a line crewman at an FBO. In fact I used to fly the FBO owner's A-36 Bonanza pretty regularly. I've flown from Sacramento, CA to Tampa, FL on several occasions. Half of my multi time was spent in the left seat of a Cessna 414. I feel like I've had a ton of great experience in real world flying. A few months ago my wife and I moved to Fort Worth, TX and doing so has basically destroyed my current flying opportunities. I still do the occasional ferrying job but I've come to the realization that flying jobs at my level has much more to do with my own ability to network than my personal piloting skill. I've maintained flying proficiency by regularly flying CAP aircraft and working towards my CFI certificate, which I should have in a week or two. Flying jobs in this economy are really scarce right now. So I figure I'll instruct till they come back, and earn my ATP when I get to 1500. I already have the required 500 cross-country. I think the key is just to stay positive and stay proficient. I hate to say it but if offered a job at the regionals for 18k/yr tomorrow I'd jump all over it. I wouldn't be able to do it but for my wife having a great job and earning a sizable paycheck. I just see that flying one of those shiny type airplanes for a while would fast track my overall career by a few years over what I'm doing now. Even though I feel I've gotten great experience I've yet to log any turbine time, it'll probably be that way too when I get the ATP certificate. In my case, I don't feel that having an ATP certificate would make me better qualified to be an airline pilot. I think a better way to increase safety at the regionals would be to have increased pay for pilots. The real problem with the Q400 / Colgan accident was that both pilots were fatigued because they were attempting to get sleep in crew lounges or crash pads all the time and the first officer had to work part time at a coffee shop to pay the bills. Oh well, until the flying public is willing to pay more for airfare I don't see how this problem get fixed. Even if the first officer of that flight would have had her ATP, I really don't think that would have saved them.

[Thrashed]

thats great. How long ago was that? The world of trying to find a flying job has changed over the last three years

And it will change again in the future.  It's always changing.  I've lost a lot of jobs during recessions too.

[Thrashed]

The real problem with the Q400 / Colgan accident was that both pilots were fatigued because they were attempting to get sleep in crew lounges or crash pads all the time and the first officer had to work part time at a coffee shop to pay the bills. Oh well, until the flying public is willing to pay more for airfare I don't see how this problem get fixed. Even if the first officer of that flight would have had her ATP, I really don't think that would have saved them.

Fatigue is only one of many problems with those pilots.  I was fatigued many times flying for a regional (flying to the same airport in the same weather as they did) and I made mistakes while fatigued.  They had more than fatigue problems.

[MooneyMeyer]

Most all accidents are a combination of many factors. All I was saying there was that the most significant factor was fatigue. Fatigue that could be immensely reduced if the pilots were payed enough to actually afford to either live at their home base or stay at a decent hotel there. The first officer there had traveled all night on several flights from Seattle to the east coast and only caught a nap in the crew lounge right before the flight. There initial move was to pull back on the stick when they saw their airspeed and altitude declining, even with the stick shaker going. You don't need an ATP certificate to know how to properly recover from a stall. There were other contributing factors, ignoring the sterile cockpit rules for instance, but I still contend that pilot fatigue was the number one factor there. I'm sure you'd agree that with all the training, expense, and responsibilities that pilots experience they deserve to make more money than what they are paid now.

[Mustang]

^ Totally agree with that. Although in order to get that 135 job, you need 1200 hours. career changers that start at age 35. Do they have time to go work for a pt 135 and then work their way  up to a 121?

They sure better...I'm a career changer and 42.

[Thrashed]

I wouldn't put fatigue at the top.  I'd put incompetence at the top.  Opposite reaction to a stall.  Raising flaps when slow.  These are all pre-solo skills.  My wife, who isn't a pilot, even knew this when she heard the story on the news.  If you don't know how to fly, being fatigued or not won't help you. 

Most all accidents are a combination of many factors. All I was saying there was that the most significant factor was fatigue. Fatigue that could be immensely reduced if the pilots were payed enough to actually afford to either live at their home base or stay at a decent hotel there. The first officer there had traveled all night on several flights from Seattle to the east coast and only caught a nap in the crew lounge right before the flight. There initial move was to pull back on the stick when they saw their airspeed and altitude declining, even with the stick shaker going. You don't need an ATP certificate to know how to properly recover from a stall. There were other contributing factors, ignoring the sterile cockpit rules for instance, but I still contend that pilot fatigue was the number one factor there. I'm sure you'd agree that with all the training, expense, and responsibilities that pilots experience they deserve to make more money than what they are paid now.

[flynd94]

I wouldn't put fatigue at the top.  I'd put incompetence at the top.  Opposite reaction to a stall.  Raising flaps when slow.  These are all pre-solo skills.  My wife, who isn't a pilot, even knew this when she heard the story on the news.  If you don't know how to fly, being fatigued or not won't help you. 

Most all accidents are a combination of many factors. All I was saying there was that the most significant factor was fatigue. Fatigue that could be immensely reduced if the pilots were payed enough to actually afford to either live at their home base or stay at a decent hotel there. The first officer there had traveled all night on several flights from Seattle to the east coast and only caught a nap in the crew lounge right before the flight. There initial move was to pull back on the stick when they saw their airspeed and altitude declining, even with the stick shaker going. You don't need an ATP certificate to know how to properly recover from a stall. There were other contributing factors, ignoring the sterile cockpit rules for instance, but I still contend that pilot fatigue was the number one factor there. I'm sure you'd agree that with all the training, expense, and responsibilities that pilots experience they deserve to make more money than what they are paid now.

I agree with you completely.  Fatigue was an issue but, come on folks, it was a freaking stall!!!  I think I earned my way to the airlines (i wasn't a 500hr wonder kid), I flight instructed, traffic watch, 135 freight dog, rj driver (furloughed) and, now a B1900 Captain.

You want to see whats wrong with aviation, come spend a week with me.  Start your day with a 0330 wake up call, 0415 van, 0515 departure, fly 8 legs (with the high probability of at least 3-4 approaches, full procedure) and, finally back to your hotel by 1630.  This in a 1900, with an FO who no experience.  I spend a great deal of my time, playing flight instructor.

I am all for the 1500/ATP requirement, real rest rules and, real pay.  Yes, I choose this lifestyle and, don't regret it at all.  Its been a great ride, just wish it wasn't as bumpy.   

[Nolan Teel]

I'm not sure how I feel about this would be requirement.  I will say this.  Give all pilots a better QOL... Pay better, better benefits, more pilots per airplane and dare I say just cause you can use your pilots for the max duty day, dont.

[Thom]

I'm not sure how I feel about this would be requirement.  I will say this.  Give all pilots a better QOL... Pay better, better benefits, more pilots per airplane and dare I say just cause you can use your pilots for the max duty day, dont.

The root problem with your (entirely sensible) proposal, and indeed with almost all of this current issue is this:

Making the necessary changes to commercial pilot pay and scheduling would require 'joe average' the air travel consumer to accept that the real cost for a round trip from Miami to Los Angeles is NOT $249, but closer to $649.  Until the traveling public understands that the costs of air travel have been dramatically understated for years, nothing will change.  Sorry.

Thom Hamilton

[Thrashed]

It's hard to convince the flying public to pay what it costs to fly when "discount" airlines under-cut the prices, forcing all airlines to lower prices to compete.  The passengers are getting what they ask for.  They don't care what plane, airline, or pilot as long as they save one dollar doing it.  What is the price of safety and quality?

[Eclipse]

The passengers are getting what they ask for.  They don't care what plane, airline, or pilot as long as they save one dollar doing it.

Why should they? The average passenger, his father, and grandfather (at the least), have grown up with air travel being a "given" - its no longer all that exciting in the grand scheme, nor should it be.

Safety should never be compromised, and if that means costs go up, so be it - knowing what I generally pay for tickets, I have no idea how the airlines can afford to operate at all, but that's not my problem as a passenger - this is a business, plain and simple.

Those who romanticize air travel are missing the point.

[flyguy06]

I dont think its an issue of airlines rasing their prices. I think the airlined need to pay their pilots more and stop using the revenues to fatten the Executives pockets or by extra things they really dont need. They need to pay thepilots what they are worth.

Its amazing. A pilot that went the civilain route pribably pays $30-60K (the far end if he went to Embry Ridle) for all his licenses and thehours required to get to an airline. thats about the same if not more than medical school or law school. The responsibility of anairline pilot who is responsible for thevery lives of the travelling public and yet they make a fraction of what Doctors and Lawyers make.

Pilots are professinals like doctors andlawyers yet they dont get paid the same. thats where I see the problem lying.

[Nolan Teel]

I think its funny how Doctors can practice medicine, lawyers can practice law... Why can't a pilot practice aviation:)

[CASH172]

Its amazing. A pilot that went the civilain route pribably pays $30-60K (the far end if he went to Embry Ridle) for all his licenses and thehours required to get to an airline. thats about the same if not more than medical school or law school. The responsibility of anairline pilot who is responsible for thevery lives of the travelling public and yet they make a fraction of what Doctors and Lawyers make.

Wow, I wish I only have to pay $60K.  Tuition in itself is only $120K plus additional flight training which is around $40K depending.  Luckily, I've got a few scholarships lined up.  The good thing about this bill is that it's hopefully going to raise pilot pay by narrowing down the pool of qualified individuals.  Of course, it'll also delay the time before one can enter that kind of job. 

[airdale]

Another question is people like to rag onthe low time FO. But the capt has at least 1500 hours and experience ... Doesnt that count for something?

As someone pointed out, all hours are not equal.  I also find it telling that the CFI is the only rating for which there is no "Aeronautical Experience" requirement in Part 61.  A CFI may never have landed anywhere but his/her home airport and the airports required for the private and commercial cross-countries.  A CFII does not ever have to have flown in a cloud.  The inexperienced teach the inexperienced, then move up to fly (and occasionally kill) the unwitting.

The CVR quotation from the Colgan Buffalo crash that sticks with me is the FO:

"... I've sixteen hundred hours. all of that in Phoenix how much time do you think actual I had or any in in ice. I had more actual time on my first day of IOE than I did in the sixteen hundred hours I had when I came here."

There is something wrong with the requirements.  "Hours" is not an adequate surrogate for real-world experience. 

[Flying Pig]

Its amazing. A pilot that went the civilain route pribably pays $30-60K (the far end if he went to Embry Ridle) for all his licenses and thehours required to get to an airline. thats about the same if not more than medical school or law school. The responsibility of anairline pilot who is responsible for thevery lives of the travelling public and yet they make a fraction of what Doctors and Lawyers make.

Wow, I wish I only have to pay $60K.  Tuition in itself is only $120K plus additional flight training which is around $40K depending.  Luckily, I've got a few scholarships lined up.  The good thing about this bill is that it's hopefully going to raise pilot pay by narrowing down the pool of qualified individuals.  Of course, it'll also delay the time before one can enter that kind of job.

Your going to pay $160K for flight training?

[CASH172]

Its amazing. A pilot that went the civilain route pribably pays $30-60K (the far end if he went to Embry Ridle) for all his licenses and thehours required to get to an airline. thats about the same if not more than medical school or law school. The responsibility of anairline pilot who is responsible for thevery lives of the travelling public and yet they make a fraction of what Doctors and Lawyers make.

Wow, I wish I only have to pay $60K.  Tuition in itself is only $120K plus additional flight training which is around $40K depending.  Luckily, I've got a few scholarships lined up.  The good thing about this bill is that it's hopefully going to raise pilot pay by narrowing down the pool of qualified individuals.  Of course, it'll also delay the time before one can enter that kind of job.

Your going to pay $160K for flight training?

That includes getting a degree.  But, yes that is how much people are paying.  The shiny jet syndrome is enough of a incentive for people to spend ridiculous amounts of money to get to a job for crappy pay.  What gets me are the guys that will spend $10,000 to try and solo or those that spend close to $30,000 trying to get a private. 

I know that NROTC - Marine option can pay for it.  Also, the new Yellow Ribbon covers the cost for those that qualify.  Don't ask me where the rest of some of these people get their money from.  Most are inline to be in-debt for decades to come.  But this is the reality of where pilots are coming from. 

[DG]

Its amazing. A pilot that went the civilain route pribably pays $30-60K (the far end if he went to Embry Ridle) for all his licenses and thehours required to get to an airline. thats about the same if not more than medical school or law school. The responsibility of anairline pilot who is responsible for thevery lives of the travelling public and yet they make a fraction of what Doctors and Lawyers make.

Wow, I wish I only have to pay $60K.  Tuition in itself is only $120K plus additional flight training which is around $40K depending.  Luckily, I've got a few scholarships lined up.  The good thing about this bill is that it's hopefully going to raise pilot pay by narrowing down the pool of qualified individuals.  Of course, it'll also delay the time before one can enter that kind of job.

Your going to pay $160K for flight training?

WOW.  Somebody is making money in this scam.

[Flying Pig]

^Yup.

At work, we fly an MD500E.  We have the DOC's costs down to $190 per hour.  I head down to the local flight school for a Turbine Transition, they will charge me $850-900 per hour to fly the same helicopter.

[flyguy06]

Another question is people like to rag onthe low time FO. But the capt has at least 1500 hours and experience ... Doesnt that count for something?

As someone pointed out, all hours are not equal.  I also find it telling that the CFI is the only rating for which there is no "Aeronautical Experience" requirement in Part 61.  A CFI may never have landed anywhere but his/her home airport and the airports required for the private and commercial cross-countries.  A CFII does not ever have to have flown in a cloud.  The inexperienced teach the inexperienced, then move up to fly (and occasionally kill) the unwitting.

The CVR quotation from the Colgan Buffalo crash that sticks with me is the FO:

"... I've sixteen hundred hours. all of that in Phoenix how much time do you think actual I had or any in in ice. I had more actual time on my first day of IOE than I did in the sixteen hundred hours I had when I came here."

There is something wrong with the requirements.  "Hours" is not an adequate surrogate for real-world experience.

A CFI is a teaching certificate not a flying certificate. Thats why its serperate from your pilots license. For example a BFR may be substituted by any checkride except the CFI  checkride. The CFI checkride isnt a test of your flying abilities. Its a test of your teaching abilities.

Thats why CFI's have a "pilots" certificate as well as a Flight Instructor ceritificate

[flyguy06]

^Yup.

At work, we fly an MD500E.  We have the DOC's costs down to $190 per hour.  I head down to the local flight school for a Turbine Transition, they will charge me $850-900 per hour to fly the same helicopter.

I was prepping for a regional airline inerview and paid $600 for an hour in a CRJ full motion sim at Flight Safety. It was the same sim th regional would have used to test me on during the interview.

[airdale]

A CFI is a teaching certificate not a flying certificate.

Yes.  You're really helping me make my point:  One can get a CFI and CFII without having significant real-world flying experience, then proceed to log hundreds and hundreds of dual-given PIC hours -- that count towards the ATP requriement -- without ever gaining much more real-world experience.  I don't argue that dual-given experience is valueless, but I do argue that it does not have much relevance to a Part 121 flying job.

[Thrashed]

No GA flying is relevant to 121 flying, but it gives you a foundation that is solid to build a 121 life on.  I had 4000 hours when hired by my first 121 airline.  I had use of a free simulator.  Nothing fancy.  I think it was an ATC-800 or something.  I flew that thing everyday.  My 121 training was a breeze because of my instrument skills.   My 135 experience helped a little.  My CFI experience of about 1500 hours helped a lot.  Ask any CFI if they learn more by teaching.  It may not make you a better pilot (but it should), but it will make you a knowledgeable one.  That will come in handy in the 121 world.  Flying is the easy part.

[DG]

Your going to pay $160K for flight training?

That includes getting a degree. 

Serious question:

Is it a real college education?

Or mostly a lot of ground school(s)?

[airdale]

I had 4000 hours when hired by my first 121 airline.

Obviously, you weren't at the competency level of that unfortunate FO, then.  You're the kind of person I want up front when I'm in the back.

So ... do you think the requirements for the ATP are sufficiently rigorous?  I just reread them in Part 61 and realized that you can not only get a CFII but also an ATP without ever having flown in a cloud.  Or, said another way, do you think a young CFI whose hours post-Commercial are virtually all locally-flown dual-given has adequate experience to be safe as an ATP with you riding in the back?

[Thrashed]

Hours is not everything, but it is a start.  I got a job flying traffic watch with little time and flew a C172 1200 hours in one year. Almost all of it VFR.  We would do IFR to VFR on top and shoot an occasional approach.  I was ATP ready with over 1500 hours and about 50 multi.  I went and got my ATP in a Seneca.  I did not get hired at a regional in those days!  I wasn't ready even if they were.  I spent the next years gaining real experience as a flight instructor and corporate pilot.

You need to increase the hour requirements, but airlines need to look at what those hours were and test the person in the interview and simulator to see if they are ready for 121. 

The problem is supply and demand.  If an airline needs pilots, they lower their requirements.
I got a job at a major with over 10,000 hours.  The captains I flew with were impressed that I could fly.  I guess they thought that it was my first job?

[CASH172]

This is no longer a may be.

http://transportation.house.gov/News/PRArticle.aspx?NewsID=1032

[flyguy06]

^ well, looks like I'll be flight instructing for a few more years making $12/hr.

[Capt. Chris Homko]

I wouldn't put fatigue at the top.  I'd put incompetence at the top.  Opposite reaction to a stall.  Raising flaps when slow.  These are all pre-solo skills.  My wife, who isn't a pilot, even knew this when she heard the story on the news.  If you don't know how to fly, being fatigued or not won't help you. 

Most all accidents are a combination of many factors. All I was saying there was that the most significant factor was fatigue. Fatigue that could be immensely reduced if the pilots were payed enough to actually afford to either live at their home base or stay at a decent hotel there. The first officer there had traveled all night on several flights from Seattle to the east coast and only caught a nap in the crew lounge right before the flight. There initial move was to pull back on the stick when they saw their airspeed and altitude declining, even with the stick shaker going. You don't need an ATP certificate to know how to properly recover from a stall. There were other contributing factors, ignoring the sterile cockpit rules for instance, but I still contend that pilot fatigue was the number one factor there. I'm sure you'd agree that with all the training, expense, and responsibilities that pilots experience they deserve to make more money than what they are paid now.

I agree with you completely.  Fatigue was an issue but, come on folks, it was a freaking stall!!!  I think I earned my way to the airlines (i wasn't a 500hr wonder kid), I flight instructed, traffic watch, 135 freight dog, rj driver (furloughed) and, now a B1900 Captain.

You want to see whats wrong with aviation, come spend a week with me.  Start your day with a 0330 wake up call, 0415 van, 0515 departure, fly 8 legs (with the high probability of at least 3-4 approaches, full procedure) and, finally back to your hotel by 1630.  This in a 1900, with an FO who no experience.  I spend a great deal of my time, playing flight instructor.

I am all for the 1500/ATP requirement, real rest rules and, real pay.  Yes, I choose this lifestyle and, don't regret it at all.  Its been a great ride, just wish it wasn't as bumpy.   

Don't forget about the recovery technique for a tailplane icing induced "stall", flaps up first and you pull up not push down on the yoke - exactly what the F/O did, retract the flaps...  too bad it wasn't a tailplane induced icing stall they were in.

[Mustang]

Don't forget about the recovery technique for a tailplane icing induced "stall", flaps up first and you pull up not push down on the yoke - exactly what the F/O did, retract the flaps...  too bad it wasn't a tailplane induced icing stall they were in.

Concur.   

FYI, it appears that the Senate committee has compromised on the 1500 hours thing; looks like 800 hours is now going to be the number.  Chalk one up for the airlines and aviation universities.

http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/03/13/986439/deal-made-on-hours-of-training.html