Cadets not allowed to fly other cadets. Period

[Eclipse]

I recall us beating this up earlier in the year, and ran across the verbiage when looking something else up.

Pretty clear now:

CAP KB Answer #: 2030
Can CAP cadets who are pilots fly other cadets in CAP aircraft?

No. See rules below from CAPR 60-1 CAP FLIGHT MANAGEMENT   5 JANUARY 2009

2-3. Passenger Requirements
d. Only pilots that are qualified as CAP Instructors, Cadet/AFROTC/AFJROTC Orientation Pilots, or SAR/DR or Transport Mission Pilots (during Supervised Missions) may carry CAP cadets as passengers or crew members. At no time may a pilot who is a CAP Cadet carry another CAP Cadet as a passenger or crew member.

[SJFedor]

Yeah, we were discussing that in the other thread about 60-1.

Kind of a shame, as it short changes the few cadets who have the drive and hours to become a MP, TMP, or Cadet O Pilot.

[CASH172]

This is something that I'm personally not completely happy with.  I've still got almost 3 years left until I'm forced out as a cadet and there are a lot of flight activities that I am not going to be able to do now.  A lot of cadets would love to find a CFI that can offer flight instruction in CAP.  Now the regs make finding something not found very often even harder.   

[Timbo]

^ Flight Officer........

[NIN]

Flight officer? Why?

To follow that logic:  by changing a little status flag in the database, 18-ish year old CFI Cadet Justin Highspeed suddenly becomes 18-ish year old CFI TFO Highspeed.  And the difference between one on Tuesday and the other on Wednesday is... exactly what?

If its an insurance thing, I think we have some poor actuaries.

If its a membership status thing, then maybe we either need to revisit the difference between 18 year old cadets and 18 year old seniors, or its time the CAP cadet program was restructured to only those individuals who are considered "non-adults."

Last I looked, even though he or she was participating in the cadet program, an 18 year old cadet is, in most states, not a minor anymore.  So whether or not they're a cadet should be immaterial.

(I also realize that this affects such a tiny percentage of cadets, but why do we even need to take this away?)

[Eclipse]

Flight officer? Why?

To follow that logic:  by changing a little status flag in the database, 18-ish year old CFI Cadet Justin Highspeed suddenly becomes 18-ish year old CFI TFO Highspeed.  And the difference between one on Tuesday and the other on Wednesday is... exactly what?

As a cadet, regardless of age, you accept little to no responsibility for your own safety or that of others, in return are any number of activities and opportunities not open to adult members.

Reverse the above for a TFO.

The line has to be drawn somewhere, somehow, and this way at least allows for late bloomers / joiners to have a run at Spaatz and other opportunities only open to more senior cadets.

[Timbo]

Flight officer? Why?

Because that is the only way around this problem today, and in the future (unless it is changed).

There is no problem here.  I think the issue is the creators of the policy felt that if a Cadet takes other Cadets up in a plane, there may be an issue of "horseplay", or showboating.  I think they felt there needs to be a distinction between the person flying and the Cadets riding.  Easiest way to do that is to make the pilot a Senior Member.  That way subconsciously, there is a feeling of separation between the Cadets and Seniors.

Honestly.....what problem are we trying to solve here.  How many Cadets are pilots, and how many of them want to take a CAP plane up.

If the Cadet wants to be PIC and fly other Cadets, sorry......become a Flight Officer.  Fair.....Not At All!  Stupid Policy......You bet it is.  Should it be changed......I am not sure, but I would lean toward no.     

[caprr275]

The NCAC had a proposal that we took to the author of the new 60-1. They told us "that they didn't know that there were cadets out there who were CFIs and that they didn't know that cadets actually took advantage of the regulation that allows cadets who are CFIs and Mission Pilots to fly."

A 200 hour 18 year old private pilot is not more quailed than a 20 year old CFI with 300 hours. Keep in mind to be a CFI you MUST be a commercial pilot with a instrument rating.  The key is a 18 year old Flight Officer is treated different than a 20 year old CFI who is a cadet.

I was told flat out that it was NOT an issue with insurance! That they didn't know that cadets were qualified under the old regulations

[Flying Pig]

Its just an old outdated rule. If a cadet is a CFI and MP and 18, Id have to say they should be allowed to fly cadets.

I think what needs to happen is to compile some info on exactly how many cadets this affects.  I knew a cadet who was professional CFI-I at a local school and he was 19, and had several minor aged students at the school.

[Mustang]

As a cadet, regardless of age, you accept little to no responsibility for your own safety or that of others, in return are any number of activities and opportunities not open to adult members.

Reverse the above for a TFO.

If you're over 18, the responsibility is yours whether you accept it or not, cadet status be [darn]ed.

[BillB]

As a cadet years ago, I flew several SAR missions (with finds) with Cadet Observers. his was when USAF controlled CAP.

[Eclipse]

As a cadet, regardless of age, you accept little to no responsibility for your own safety or that of others, in return are any number of activities and opportunities not open to adult members.

Reverse the above for a TFO.

If you're over 18, the responsibility is yours whether you accept it or not, cadet status be [darn]ed.

Cite, please, because that's not how it works.

Cadets over 18 may have civil responsibility or liability based on their age, but within the CAP Cadet Program they have the same status from a supervisory position as a slick-sleeve 12 year old.

The adults (i.e. Senior Members), are in charge and responsible, and the cadets are free to disavow.

[caprr275]

Not true because a 18 year old cadet can be issued CAP radios and a CAP credit card where as a younger cadet can not

[CASH172]

Also, an 18 year old cadet can still be a MP and IP, it's just their passengers cannot be one exclusive group of people.  The cadet's responsibility for a safe flight and well being of his/her passengers still stand no matter who is being carried.

[Eclipse]

Not true because a 18 year old cadet can be issued CAP radios and a CAP credit card where as a younger cadet can not

Not in my wing.

[Eclipse]

Also, an 18 year old cadet can still be a MP and IP, it's just their passengers cannot be one exclusive group of people.  The cadet's responsibility for a safe flight and well being of his/her passengers still stand no matter who is being carried.

In that case, the cadet may be the PIC, responsible for the airplane, however the adults in the plane are responsible for the cadet. (wouldn't that be a fun hearing).

I'm not saying its not a mess, but we need to seperate "civil adulthood" from "CAP adulthood" for these discussions.

[lordmonar]

Anyone remember my "over 18 cadets" thread?

It all boils down to that basic premis.

By definition cadets are not "adults" as far as CAP goes.  Does not matter they can work, vote, enter into contracts, or have 10000 hours as a CFI.

IN CAP they are not adults. 

The fix is simple.....eliminate the gray area....when you turn 18 you are no longer a cadet.  Those who don't like this option...then the answer is still simple....cadets over 18 have a choice.  They can be MP and MTPs as cadets....but they cannot fly other cadets.  If they don't like this then all they have to do is submit a form and all is good.

[Timbo]

^ +1

[rightstuffpilot]

As a cadet in the position to be a CFI, I spoke with the CAP DO today.  They have not had someone ask for a waiver before, but seemed fairly pro-cadet.  I was encouraged to submit for a waiver through wing and region.  If you know a cadet in this position they should be encouraged to do the same if they desire.

[Ned]

By definition cadets are not "adults" as far as CAP goes.  Does not matter they can work, vote, enter into contracts, or have 10000 hours as a CFI.

IN CAP they are not adults. 

The fix is simple.....eliminate the gray area....when you turn 18 you are no longer a cadet.  Those who don't like this option...then the answer is still simple....cadets over 18 have a choice.  They can be MP and MTPs as cadets....but they cannot fly other cadets.  If they don't like this then all they have to do is submit a form and all is good.

Patrick, Bob and others,

We've had this discussion many times, so this should be no surprise.

No matter how often you repeat this little gem, it simply isn't true.

CAP Cadets are treated as CAP cadets, nothing more, nothing less.  It has nothing to do with the age of majority.  And cadets, by definition, are military students.  Uncle Sam has cadets above and below the age of 18.  He doesn't care, and there is no reason we should either.


in rare cases, one can be a senior member under the age of 18, and it is unquestioned that 20 year olds can be either cadets or seniors.  No big deal.

The fact that we have some minor regulatory issues - like the point of this thread - is no reason to toss the baby out with the bathwater and summarily throw several hundred successful cadets out of our terrific cadet program.  Doing that would damage their future prospects for college, the military, scholarships, and life in general.

We can fix these smaller issues without drastically altering a highly cadet program that has run successfully for over 60 years.


Now back to your original topic . . . .