New Summer Flight Uniform

[bosshawk]

There are a few members of this thread who are old enough to remember when the US Army had an optional summer duty uniform that consisted of a khaki, short-sleeved shirt and khaki shorts, worn with khaki knee socks and black low-quarter shoes, with the standard web belt.  Very comfortable at warm weather posts and not bad looking.

Don't quite understand all this wailing and gnashing of teeth about shorts.  I don't happen to like the idea of flying CAP aircraft on search missions in shorts, but that is my bias.  Wearing shorts at other times is no big deal.  I also understand the group that wouldn't be caught dead in the privacy of their bedroom in shorts of any type.

BTW: where in the National Board agenda did the originator of this thread find the reference to this proposed uniform?  I read the agenda from start to finish and did not see it.

[flyerthom]

CAP was forced to adopt NIMS as the industry standard to stay as a player in the field of emergency services.
Among the major players in Aviation SAR, what is the industry standard for duty uniform?

[lordmonar]

I have done 22 years in the military, getting told every day what I will wear, how I should groom my hair.  Some people don't like that.  They want to help the USAF and our local community....but they want to be comfortable doing it.

Can't say I fully agree with that.  When one joins an organization, they have to conform to the standards.

Granted...but we are ranting about changing those standards.....let's keep that clearly in mind.  OUR MEMBERS would like a more comfortable uniform.  We are making a lot of noise about loss of professionalism and flying club mentality...when what we really have is a group of professionals who are using the system as designed to make their life in CAP easier.   No one is suggesting that we just wear what we want.   The question was why does anyone have a problem wearing the uniform of our country....the answer is simply they don't want to.  And I can live with that.

For the record.....I am against this option...simply because it adds another uniform to the mix.  I agree with the thinking behind it but it goes against my first principle of reducing the number of uniforms that can be encountered at a mission base.

  Standards have to shoe a degree of professionalism.  I can't fathom a world where CAP Officers, aviators at that, are wearing a combination that looks less professional that UPS, MAIL CARRIERS and EMS.  I cite these not to "down play" the improtance of these people (I can see where someone migth fain an insulting imagined tone from that...that is furtherst thing from my mind), but to insure that CAP aviators have a professional look.  Your not flying for yourself up there, your flying for CAP.  Filthy golf shirt and cruddy shorts (which you know will happen within six month of this uniform...you know, from wadding it up in the trunk of a car or some other reasons someone will give why they just "couldn't look professional")

Many of you know my agendistic rant on "corporate" shirts/shorts and the basic "dressing down/causual friday is every day" issue, however, I will rise above my agendism and offer...

...a compromise!!!  Again, white aviator shirt (short sleeve) with rank shoulder marks/nametag, uniform shorts and reasonable footwear looks both professional and should be comfortable.  That is what UPS, MAIL CARRIERS and EMS tend to wear...why can't we just have that?
[/quote]

[mikeylikey]

^ 1 pair of pants, and a shirt.  OR 1 flightsuit.  I don't think there is any real "industry standard"

Hey.....I don't mind a polo and khaki pants, but shorts is more for the "casual sport flyer", or the guy taking his kids an a weekend flight to the beach.

We need to present a more Professional image.  If you have problems wearing pants while flying for upward of 3 or 4 hours.......maybe something else in CAP (not flying related) may be more suited for you.

I remember learning to fly and the school had a strict policy on what was allowed to be worn.  I never had any problem wearing pants and a polo in 100 degree weather.  Sure you might be just a little uncomfortable, but if you hydrate, there should be NO problem.

Anyway.....I look through AOPA magazines and see pics of people flying and rarely see any of them wearing shorts.  That is one of the countries premier flight mags.  (Not that it has any bearing on CAP or this discussion, but thought I would throw it in).        

[lordmonar]

There are a few members of this thread who are old enough to remember when the US Army had an optional summer duty uniform that consisted of a khaki, short-sleeved shirt and khaki shorts, worn with khaki knee socks and black low-quarter shoes, with the standard web belt.  Very comfortable at warm weather posts and not bad looking.

The USAF had one of those too up until the 60's IIRC...my dad who went through the Aviation Cadet Program in 1960 used to tell me about the unifrom of the day on some October Morining being Tropical Uniform with Pith Helmet.

[mikeylikey]

The USAF had one of those too up until the 60's IIRC...my dad who went through the Aviation Cadet Program in 1960 used to tell me about the unifrom of the day on some October Morining being Tropical Uniform with Pith Helmet.

HERE you go folks.............

[heliodoc]

I would imagine if the NIMS standard were applied like other aircrews USCG, CBP, etc they would address the standard Nomex unless DHS is like CAP, always worrying about what next fashion to wear in the cockpit.

Remember those sillly CAP ultramarine shortsleeved jumpsuits???  Wanna go back to them??

[Major Carrales]

Remember those sillly CAP ultramarine shortsleeved jumpsuits???  Wanna go back to them??

It was those jumpsuits (the smurf suit), a while back, where FBO employees made the comment to me that all CAP Officers wore "filthy blueberry jumpsuits."

Our appearance is key to how we are perceived.  If you want to look like luftsport people out for a Sunday flight...go ahead.  That is likely what we will be perceived as.  If you want to look like a SAR organization or Airforce Auxiliary...then something that looks like a uniform for that purpose might be better.

[DG]

Among the major players in Aviation SAR, what is the industry standard for duty uniform?

CAP members perform 90 percent of continental U.S. inland search and rescue missions as tasked by the AFRCC and were credited by AFRCC with saving 103 lives in 2007.

[IceNine]

^  I suppose that is a valid point.  Except that as you said we do 90 of the inland sar tasked by the AF.  This does not include the missing persons searches, and after disaster searches, and rescue missions that the various state police, ema and the like do.


I know that state police, and even EMS folks in aircraft operations wear flight suits, but short sleeves are the order of the day during the summer months.

I would have to think that the amount of on the ground time that our aircrews spend on >95% of our missions is so minimal as to be a non-issue. 

[flyerthom]

^  I suppose that is a valid point.  Except that as you said we do 90 of the inland sar tasked by the AF.  This does not include the missing persons searches, and after disaster searches, and rescue missions that the various state police, ema and the like do.


I know that state police, and even EMS folks in aircraft operations wear flight suits, but short sleeves are the order of the day during the summer months.

I would have to think that the amount of on the ground time that our aircrews spend on >95% of our missions is so minimal as to be a non-issue. 

The search for missing aircraft is very small percentage of SAR missions. If we want to increase our market share we need to get called for others.

Again, white aviator shirt (short sleeve) with rank shoulder marks/nametag, uniform shorts and reasonable footwear looks both professional and should be comfortable.  That is what UPS, MAIL CARRIERS and EMS tend to wear...why can't we just have that?

The Commission on Accreditation of Air Medical Transport Services (CAMTS) requires Nomex for Air EMS units doing any sort of response involving scene or SAR. It is not required for ground EMS response by NFPA unless the unit is involved in rescue operations such as vehicle rescue. Then fire turnout gear and helmets are required. Several states require that helmets and Nomex gear be available on all ambulances along with minimal extrication gear. Every ground unit I worked on from about 1986 carried Nomex fire coats. If you got in a wrecked car you were protected or you didn't go in.
It is also the standard for aerial fire fighting. CAP air ops have far more in common with Air EMS than the ground EMS.

The standard is set from NFPA, ASTM committee F 32, CAMTS and others.

[PHall]

Just to remind everybody, this uniform change is for GLIDERS ONLY!
The change is to fix a conflict between the 60-1 and 39-1.

Okay, carry on.

[IceNine]

^ do you have documentation of that?  Cause as of yet we are all under the impression that this is for Aircrew's

But then again the question has been raised where is the documentation for this in the first place.

[jb512]

Just to remind everybody, this uniform change is for GLIDERS ONLY!
The change is to fix a conflict between the 60-1 and 39-1.

Okay, carry on.

I'm good with that for gliders since that's our coolness specific to us, but for powered flight crews it would just look goofy.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

For gliders, fine. But for Heaven's sake, let's limit it to that!

(Didn't see the glider-only stipulation. Did I miss it?)

[PHall]

For gliders, fine. But for Heaven's sake, let's limit it to that!

(Didn't see the glider-only stipulation. Did I miss it?)

I refer you to Para 5-7, CAPR 60-1.

[WT]

I'm a bit confused here...

A CAP Polo shirt and Khaki shorts would be a UNIFORM.  It's the uniform at NESA every year!

Would we rather have personnel (aircrews) in airplanes fighting dehydration during the summer, or would we rather have our aircrews be more comfortable in a postion to better perform the mission??

[jb512]

I'm a bit confused here...

A CAP Polo shirt and Khaki shorts would be a UNIFORM.  It's the uniform at NESA every year!

Would we rather have personnel (aircrews) in airplanes fighting dehydration during the summer, or would we rather have our aircrews be more comfortable in a postion to better perform the mission??

No Shorts For Powered Aircrew.  At some point you have to draw the line.

If you can't fight dehydration in a flight suit or grey slacks then you need to get off the couch.  Take the stairs.  Do something.

[cap801]

It's not always dehydration that you have to fight off.  Try flying a 4 hour low level tower search on a military training route in the summer in the desert.  That, in and of itself, is manageable in a flight suit and lots of water (though I imagine some of our older pilots wouldn't make it 4 hours).  But when you add in that the airplane is being bounced around all over creation, you have a good recipe for regurgitation.  This has happened on multiple occasions just in my squadron (not to me, fortunately.)  Is anyone going to argue that a flight crew that's throwing up is going to be as capable of performing their mission as one that is comfortable, or at least held on to its breakfast?  The only solution we have is to take off at 5:15 a.m. just before the sun rises, because by 9:30 it's just going to be miserable.  And that only works if we don't have to do any stopovers.  Keep in mind that this is a mission that we have complete control over when it is performed.  In actual REDCAPS we don't have that option.

I don't think you have to be out of shape to be hot in a flightsuit.  I'm 6' and 140 pounds.  I don't claim to be the most physically fit person I know, but I think it would be hard to argue that I need to lose weight.  And yesterday, as we droned along at 1000' agl in 100 degree weather getting the tar beat out of us, I think I would have rather been in shorts and a polo than a full flightsuit.

Yes, there are a lot of different uniforms to wear in CAP.  But is that not true of every military branch?  I think that there are much bigger problems with this organization that need fixing than having one more uniform that simply serves to make those of us in the more heated climates a bit more comfortable, or at that very least a bit less likely to toss our cookies.

[DNall]

You guys do what you want.  That just about seals the deal for me not staying in CAP when I'm done with my AF training.  If all goes well, I'll be sweating it out in a flight suit in quite a few different environments and I'll be [darn]ed proud to do it.

Hydrate, exercise, and eat well and you shouldn't have a problem.  Aside from the obvious, there are a lot of cops in this forum who will attest to standing on 100+ degree asphalt in black uniforms for long periods of time with vests, 20 lbs. worth of gear, etc., and we know how to deal with it.  There are thousands of military people in a freakin desert that hump it with even more than that every single day.

I feel your pain my friend.

Looking at the NTSB crash reports with the simple search parameter fire from 1/6/2008 to 7/19/2008 there are 125 aircraft completely or partially destroyed by fire. In those crashes there are a total of 207 fatalities. Now this doesn't mean all 207 were killed by burns but how many of them were? The autopsy reports are not available.

When a search for burns is done it comes back to two seriously injured and two definite fatalities (one in the house that burned when struck by the aircraft) from 1/1/2008 to 7/26/2008. 

Neither of these is statistically insignificant.  Aircraft burn just as often if not more so than autos.

It's seems that the three things we pay for and desire to get cheated on are, education, health care, and safety.

The issue is really not how often one might catch fire in flight. You fly thousands of hours w/o crashing. The statistical chances of going in are quite small. Yet, you still wear a seat belt. The point is you can't pull over or slam it in the guard rail & get out the driver seat. You have to pilot the thing down while YOU are burning or you die for sure. Nomex buys you some time to get that done, and that's what it's meant for.

I don't care what it's like in the desert. I wear it here in south Texas where the humidity is a whole ton higher. I don't care about your comfort. I don't care what you want to do. I do care about doing things the right way, even if that means the harder way. You might be flying a GA plane on a GA license, but low & slow in a heavy bird doing high rate turns in wind and thin air for hours on end is not something FAA GA statistics are going to provide realistic data on.

That & you pull into a CP wearing that crap & trying to tell my guys you're some kind of highly skilled, experienced, trained, and equipped air SAR force - they're going to call the cops to throw you the hell out, or at least ask you where your uniform is, and CAP won't get called again. So be comfortable, do what you want. I'm sure that's the most important thing.

I'm sympathetic to heat casualty arguments. I've lost a soldier to that. You're sitting in a padded seat though, not humping 60-80lbs over terrain w/o a break. Hydrate & monitor each other. If you need a break you climb for a bit & cool off.