New Summer Flight Uniform

[Eclipse]

I'd vote for that!!!  Just soaked a flight suit yesterday working on touch and go's.   That is also similiar to what the aircrews wear at NESA.

Wonder how long the "NOMEX flight suit" purists will keep wearing flight suites if they can wear shorts!

Sadly, many of our people >are< wearing flight "suites".   

[RiverAux]

Just the thought of looking at all those skinny old man legs gives me the shudders. 

FYI, the CG and CG Aux do have an option for a uniform with shorts (basically a cut off version of the fatigue pants).

I don't think anyone believes that anything "optional" will be restricted to just certain locations.  Pretty much the entire US can make an argument for having weather hot enough to justify shorts.  So, we will be throwing this uniform in with every other option we've got and adding yet more diversity to any meeting of CAP personnel. 

[Short Field]

I'd vote for that!!!  Just soaked a flight suit yesterday working on touch and go's.   That is also similiar to what the aircrews wear at NESA.

Wonder how long the "NOMEX flight suit" purists will keep wearing flight suites if they can wear shorts!

Sadly, many of our people >are< wearing flight "suites".   

That happens when you have 120 words per minute fingers and a 100 word word per minute brain.   Besides, it is all the USAF's fault - they didn't let me take my XO with me when I retired.

[PHall]

Thank You to our National Leaders who are doing some great work, in respect to caring for our aircrews flying in the summer heat.   :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

If things go well at the National Board, we may be authorized to wear a New Summer Flight Uniform.

Blue golf shirt and khaki shorts.  White socks and white tennis shoes.

This is great news.  It was only last week that I had to accompany my copilot to the ER when he became ill while on a mission in the GA-8 with a temperature dew point of 35 / 33.

Talk to your Wing CC and Region CC and express your request for their support in approving this change at the National Board Meeting and Conference in Florida. 

The info I have on this is that this is for GLIDERS ONLY!.  People in powered aircraft will continue to wear what you wear now.

This item addesses a conflict between the 60-1 and 39-1.

[mikeylikey]

If it truly is for gliders than that is even better.  It will present a uniform appearance of those that decide to fly without a brain engine.  Too often we see Cadets and Seniors (who are towing) wearing shorts and t-shirt.  Now they will all look the same! I do suggest they get the material blends in the new polo right this time, and make it a moisture wicking fabric??  We are in 2008!!

[Eclipse]

I'm going to go with Hall on this, and ask the Gods to let common sense prevail on an administrative correction, not a new uniform for regular, powered flying.

5-7. CAP Member Soaring Uniform.
Soaring activity, to include the tow pilot, demands that comfortable, loose-fitting, nonrestrictive clothing be worn. A T-shirt, such as a CAP designed wing T-shirt with a pair of shorts/long pants and tennis shoes is sufficient. However, the final uniform decision rests with the region/wing commander. Due to space restrictions in most glider rudder pedal areas, the wearing of boots, including military style boots, is prohibited.

This uniform does not appear in CAPM 39-1, so technically it is not approved for wear, since 60-1 defines operations, not uniform wear.

This already allows for the tow pilot (though it doesn't allow for the rest of the tow aircrew, if any).

Tags - MIKE

[Hawk200]

Don't really see the point of this new uniform, but I won't address that.

What I would like to know is whether or not the polo is the existing one, or if it is going to be yet another new item to make Vanguard money. Because we all know that there are people that have to have all the uniforms that are available to CAP.

We've got a senior like that in our unit. I think I've only ever seen him wear one uniform twice, and that's the BBDU. Not sure how he affords it, considering he's retired.

[Eclipse]

Don't really see the point of this new uniform, but I won't address that.

What I would like to know is whether or not the polo is the existing one, or if it is going to be yet another new item to make Vanguard money. Because we all know that there are people that have to have all the uniforms that are available to CAP.

Um, so?

I'm a commander and I think it is important for my people to see me wearing a variety of uniforms correctly so that, they don't feel CAP has a bias towards the military or corporate aspect, and just to see them configured correctly.

I have three+ sets of BDU's, a blue field uniform, light blue flight suit, Service Dress w/ jacket and wheel cap, Aviator whites (plus the parts to make them CSU's), gold shirt and a blazer.

Assuming he's wearing them correctly and appropriately, how is this a problem?

Some people "waste" their money on cable tv, movies, drinking, and smoking, others on uniforms and ES gear, so what?

And I'm no fan of VG, but not >every< decision NHQ makes is designed to stick it to the membership through more money to VG.

[DG]

The info I have on this is that this is for GLIDERS ONLY!.  People in powered aircraft will continue to wear what you wear now.

This item addesses a conflict between the 60-1 and 39-1.

True enough that glider activities already are authorized to wear shorts and tennis shoes.

CAPR 60-1  5-7. CAP Member Soaring Uniform. Soaring activity, to include the tow pilot, demands that comfortable, loose-fitting, nonrestrictive clothing be worn. A T-shirt, such as a CAP designed wing T-shirt with a pair of shorts/long pants and tennis shoes is sufficient. However, the final uniform decision rests with the region/wing commander. Due to space restrictions in most glider rudder pedal areas, the wearing of boots, including military style boots, is prohibited.

And I believe it is so that CAPR 39-1 does not mention the soaring uniform.

Neverthless, some of our National Leaders are addressing the need for an optional summer uniform for powered flight activities.  Of course, any agenda item can be changed at any time and must be approved by the Board.  And the reg itself will authorize an optional summer flight uniform, limited to flight activities and which requires Wing CC approval.  But see for yourself, and tune into the live streamimg video from the National Board, and see how it goes.

[mikeylikey]

^ Why the heck can't we have one regulation (say 39-1) contain uniforms ONLY, instead of multiple regulations conflicting with each other?? 

Come on.......this is one more jacked up thing that should have been corrected 10 years ago!!

As far as all this goes, I change my mind.  How many people actually are part of the glider program??  I would bet not as many as there are Flight Officers.  Why can't we get uniforms straightened out for our members first, then work on activity specific uniforms second??

This stuff is starting to blow!

[flyerthom]

When a search for burns is done it comes back to two seriously injured and two definite fatalities (one in the house that burned when struck by the aircraft) from 1/1/2008 to 7/26/2008. 

Neither of these is statistically insignificant.  Aircraft burn just as often if not more so than autos.

Sorry , then you don't understand the term "statistically insignificant", because if in the history of CAP, the only indication
you can find is two, and only one being aircrew, that is statistically >zero<, and the insurance industry and others interested in this sort of this wouldn't even recognize the event.

Obviously they are significant events in the lives of those killed, their friends, family, and CAP as a community, but they have no statistical significance.

The time frame of the search was 1/1/08 to 7/26/08. So in 7 months that's a bit different.

[mikeylikey]

^ Not that it matters.......gliders don't carry fuel, do they?!?!

If you crash your glider, don't worry about fire, be more concerned about the glider itself crumpling up into a ball about the size of a small dishwasher.

I don't particularly care for CAP having a gliding program to begin with.  Heck we won't allow Cadets (or Adults) drive ATV's or Golf carts but we will let them fly hundred thousand dollar vehicles, with the very distinct possibility that they will CRASH and DIE, or worse, take out houses and kill others. 

WAKE up........priorities are a mess at NHQ, and the entire leadership needs a wakeup call in way of being replaced.  Too many people have served on National Staff for too long. 

[Eclipse]

The time frame of the search was 1/1/08 to 7/26/08. So in 7 months that's a bit different.

Sorry, its not.

In order to have it mean anything statistically, you have to look at all CAP flight activities which resulted in a crash and fire over a longer period of time, and compare the injuries sustained in other crashes that did not include fire retardant clothing.

You'd also need to know how long the clothing was exposed to fire, and whether the crash was survivable (as if its not, the fire issue is somewhat irrelevant).

Odds are that was the only CAP crash with fire the whole year, if not for a decade.

[Eclipse]

^ Not that it matters.......gliders don't carry fuel, do they?!?!

Depends what they served for lunch at the NFA!   

[PHall]

Gliders have a severe "glass house" effect and heat injuries can occur if you don't take precautions.

T-Shirts, shorts and tennis shoes is what is reccomended by the Soaring Society of America, and CAP has seen fit to follow their recommendations.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Exactly.  Gain some military bearing at some point and the organization should be ok.  Otherwise, yes, it's a flying club.
Sidenote:  Cadet activities are still awesome and a great benefit.

The worse examples of the "flying club" are the ones who always wear their flight suits, reguardless of the function,  and you normally only see them if attendance is required in order for them to fly.  Most around here are not even Mission Pilots, just CAP Pilots with a current Fm 5 who like the reduced rates for flying corporate aircraft.   But they sure look good.....  That is who your "flying club" people are, not the ones that need to "gain some military bearing".

You guys do what you want.  That just about seals the deal for me not staying in CAP when I'm done with my AF training. 

Why wait until you are done with your AF training - or are you just using CAP to pad your resume?

I disagree with the perception that a flight suit automatically sets certain CAP members apart, whether as a "flying club" or as an "elite." That's just bull. You want to see self-appointed "elites," go look at the Hawk Mountain or Glades Rangers.

Pilots who only show up for meetings when they need them to fly, I have some problem with. They should not be so detached from the program. But if unit meetings are the useless snorefest they can be sometimes, I can see why they'd stay away. As for my unit, all our aircrew members are going through training right now, every Thursday night at our UTAs. They're preparing to be of service. Are your pilots doing that?

The flight suit isn't the "flying club" uniform. The golf shirt and civilian CAP combinations are. And they are a bad idea, if you ask me, especially since there's 200 different "uniforms" out there that CAP has authorized, depending on which ICL or regulation you read.

The only reason you don't see more flight suits at my unit (Clearwater, Fla.) is some dictum from our wing (that I can't find in writing anywhere) that limits flight suit wear only to when you're actually in an airplane -- and that's logic I disagree with almost wholeheartedly. (Logical conclusion: Can we wear the BDU anywhere but in the woods?)

Cadets who see flight suits on their leaders feel attachment to a military aviation organization. Seniors who see it feel motivation. Outsiders who see it percieve us as an organized, professional, military organization...

...rather than a bunch of old and/or overweight people with silver oak leaves (depending on the uniform they wear) sucking down coffee for two or three hours a week. That's an environment tailor-made for golf shirts and shorts, and Velcro shoes.

As long as the flight suit, like any other CAP uniform, isn't worn outside of a CAP activity for personal gain (like picking up chicks or swapping patches and saying "I'm in the Air Force" -- those guys should be drummed out).

So let 'em wear the flight suits, but ensure the wearers are engaged in CAP activities and that they know how to wear them, and when it's good to wear them (doesn't have to be in a pure flying setting). Proper uniform wear is a command responsibility, but one that EVERYONE shares.

[Short Field]

Cadets who see flight suits on their leaders feel attachment to a military aviation organization. Seniors who see it feel motivation. Outsiders who see it perceive us as an organized, professional, military organization...

...rather than a bunch of old and/or overweight people with silver oak leaves (depending on the uniform they wear) sucking down coffee for two or three hours a week. That's an environment tailor-made for golf shirts and shorts, and Velcro shoes.

I am one of your "old and overweigh person with silver oak leaves" and I do suck down coffee for two or three hours a week day.   You seem to equate professionalism with flight suits and not with performance, bearing, attitude, and conduct.    I was in a military aviation organization and it wasn't CAP.  We only wore our flight suits when we were flying or playing crazy games in the casual bar.   The standards still exist, but enforcement is so lax as to be nonexistent. 

[Hawk200]

Don't really see the point of this new uniform, but I won't address that.

What I would like to know is whether or not the polo is the existing one, or if it is going to be yet another new item to make Vanguard money. Because we all know that there are people that have to have all the uniforms that are available to CAP.

Um, so?

I'm a commander and I think it is important for my people to see me wearing a variety of uniforms correctly so that, they don't feel CAP has a bias towards the military or corporate aspect, and just to see them configured correctly.

I have three+ sets of BDU's, a blue field uniform, light blue flight suit, Service Dress w/ jacket and wheel cap, Aviator whites (plus the parts to make them CSU's), gold shirt and a blazer.

Assuming he's wearing them correctly and appropriately, how is this a problem?

Some people "waste" their money on cable tv, movies, drinking, and smoking, others on uniforms and ES gear, so what?

And I'm no fan of VG, but not >every< decision NHQ makes is designed to stick it to the membership through more money to VG.

If that's how you want to justify having a myriad of uniforms, that's your call. I don't buy it, but it doesn't matter. One person doesn't need to be the the uniform model for a unit. As a commander, you could have saved yourself a lot of money by going with a primary set of uniforms, and ensuring that your other senior members are wearing them correctly. You chose otherwise. Your money, your call.

If it uses existing components, then there's less money for your "gotta have it because it's new" adopters. You think it's OK for people to get everything new on the market, fine. I don't see the point, and I don't have any real reason yet to feel otherwise.

When it comes to what people want to wear, I'm pretty flexible. If they have appropriate uniforms, and ask "Do I need such and such uniform?", I'll tell them "No, you don't need it. If you want it, up to you.". If they ask if something is OK for them to buy, I'll tell them: "Your money, buy whatever you feel like. Not my money or decision." The only point I'm inflexible on is proper wear. You buy it, know how you're supposed to wear it before you put it on. Noone can really fault me on that.

[Eclipse]

Frankly, what I could or could not do is NOYB.

Why do you care enough about us clothes horses to even think about it?

[Hawk200]

Frankly, what I could or could not do is NOYB.

True. So what's the problem? I certainly didn't tell you what you could or couldn't do. I didn't tell anyone what to do, only whether or not they would need something when they ask.

If someone has a full set of blues, and asks me if they need a CSU, I'd tell them that I didn't consider it necessary, but if they want it, it's up to them. Same with any other appropriate uniforms.

The only thing I wanted to know is whether or not this was gonna be something entirely new, or if it would use existing uniform items in different configuration. Don't see the issue with such an inquiry.

Why do you care enough about us clothes horses to even think about it?

I wouldn't want people running out to buy the latest and greatest just because it's out there. It's a simple personal concern for others, things are getting pricey these days. If people have something that will do the job they need, no reason to go buy something new fancy. Some people have a problem with that kind of self discipline, and it can be an issue when they really can't afford it.