"Get out of work free" Call

Started by Smoothice, January 25, 2010, 03:40:28 PM

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Smoothice

Hello,
Where can I find information pertaining to wheather or not my employer would be obligated to let me leave work (with or without pay) if an actual mission came up? I tried searching E-Services, but I did not know how to phrase it.

Along with that, how does it work if I am employed in one state (the same one I have residence in) and I am a member in a different state?

Also, what do you do...keep your 24/72 in the trunk of your car so you always have it??

thanks!

cap235629

It varies state by state. Here in Arkansas if you work for the state, a county or municipality you are afforded 15 days of unpaid leave a year for service in CAP.  You should be searching in the laws of the state you are employed in (I am assuming Mass) and see of you have the same protections.
Bill Hobbs, Major, CAP
Arkansas Certified Emergency Manager
Tabhair 'om póg, is Éireannach mé

Eclipse

As said, you have to look it up locally (or ask wing staff).  It'll be more complicated as we could not begin to guess if work protection extends to non-residents in a given state.

What you carry should be what you need for whatever job you expect to do, including a basic uniform.
I'm a GBD and aircrew, so I have full 24, aircrew "stuff" and my base staff gear (charts, printer, paper, forms, etc.).

Rarely do we do "out the door" missions with such urgency you can't get home first, however that would vary on where you live and how far home is.  I know people who live 2 hours from work and the missions are in the opposite direction, so that would be a factor.

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

Quote from: cap235629 on January 25, 2010, 03:43:21 PM
It varies state by state. Here in Arkansas if you work for the state, a county or municipality you are afforded 15 days of unpaid leave a year for service in CAP.  You should be searching in the laws of the state you are employed in (I am assuming Mass) and see of you have the same protections.
Actually it is paid leave in Arkansas...

Fubar

Before determining if your employer is obligated to give you time off for CAP missions, have you checked to see if the company is OK with you randomly disappearing? While they may be obligated to give you the time off, they're not obligated to keep you employed (at least in my state).

Eclipse

Quote from: Fubar on January 25, 2010, 06:42:21 PM
Before determining if your employer is obligated to give you time off for CAP missions, have you checked to see if the company is OK with you randomly disappearing? While they may be obligated to give you the time off, they're not obligated to keep you employed (at least in my state).

I would say you might want to recheck that - there's not much point in job protection if they can retaliate against you after the fact.  Any termination that could be shown connected to the CAP time off would be actionable in a number of ways.

(Though there are plenty of ways to nail people "creatively" if an employer is so inclined.)

"That Others May Zoom"

heliodoc

In this day in age I wouldn't be playing CAP card too heavily.

The last two interviews i was on only asked if I had any hobbies or was in in volunteer group or work.. these did not ask me to elaborate.

Surprisingly, one was an EM agency and another was a all risk / all hazard outfit.  Both did not seem too interested on how much time you were willing to take off..... but how much time would you put into the agency (ies) if and when required.

Granted CAP isn't calling every day, but if one is starting over in the interview process...I would maks very small mentions and pick the time when one needs to bring it up.

For toy CAP lifers attached to a 30-40 yrs State, Federal, or retirement program and can feel safe about taking days at a time for CAP.....good on you

For others looking to get back with someone with plenty-o-skills......be ready to , in some cases, donatin to the cause in  the real world...some employers are looking at you to see what you can do for them let alone how much time one can get away for CAP.

Again for SOME of you CAPers lookin for a day off in the employment world...look at from what you would do if all of a sudden you were to become unemployed...  some of us are already finding out ( the unemployed in my squadron) that it takes more than volunteering for CAP or any other volunteer group, for that fact, to gain employment again.  It is usually taking more than just being some Sqdn CC or Safety Officer assignment in CAP, to build a resume.  Some of those folks interviewing, are really not looking for how much one is doing for CAP when they are interviewing YOU.  Indicating to me ANYONE getting a day off either through already written statutes or upcoming ones will be pretty lucky particularly if CAP members are working for some form of Guv

"Looking for that getting out of work for free call?"   Try unemployment!!  You have alllllllll the opportunity for CAP then...only if one is a pilot, it WILL be a little tight for flying...just ask the few of us...

cap235629

Quote from: RiverAux on January 25, 2010, 05:47:17 PM
Quote from: cap235629 on January 25, 2010, 03:43:21 PM
It varies state by state. Here in Arkansas if you work for the state, a county or municipality you are afforded 15 days of unpaid leave a year for service in CAP.  You should be searching in the laws of the state you are employed in (I am assuming Mass) and see of you have the same protections.
Actually it is paid leave in Arkansas...

Actually I knew that but was cross eyed tired when I typed it...LOL
Bill Hobbs, Major, CAP
Arkansas Certified Emergency Manager
Tabhair 'om póg, is Éireannach mé

PHall

Quote from: Eclipse on January 25, 2010, 06:51:01 PM
Quote from: Fubar on January 25, 2010, 06:42:21 PM
Before determining if your employer is obligated to give you time off for CAP missions, have you checked to see if the company is OK with you randomly disappearing? While they may be obligated to give you the time off, they're not obligated to keep you employed (at least in my state).

I would say you might want to recheck that - there's not much point in job protection if they can retaliate against you after the fact.  Any termination that could be shown connected to the CAP time off would be actionable in a number of ways.

(Though there are plenty of ways to nail people "creatively" if an employer is so inclined.)

Just ask the Guard and reserve members who have had promotions and such denied because they took time off to do their duty.
Even though employers are required by law to grant time off so the member can perform their duties, there are still a number of lawsuits filed every year against companies who violate the law.
CAP members can expect the same reactions... ::)

RADIOMAN015

You need a reality check. >:(  CAP is for some (maybe many) of the senior membership a "wanna be", fantasy world >:(   Your job is your career, chance for advancement and will bring you in money you need to live on.  Than when you retiree you can spend your time in all the CAP 'adventures" that are possible ;) 

Employers hire employees with skills necessary to help them fulfill their mission.  They expect their employees to be on the job every day as scheduled unless the absence is according to their policy.

You might get a feel for the work culture in your workplace regarding unscheduled time off.   You could ask your boss direct, but depending upon where you are (in his eyes) it could affect your career.
RM


desertengineer1

Quote from: Fubar on January 25, 2010, 06:42:21 PM
Just ask the Guard and reserve members who have had promotions and such denied because they took time off to do their duty.
Even though employers are required by law to grant time off so the member can perform their duties, there are still a number of lawsuits filed every year against companies who violate the law.
CAP members can expect the same reactions... ::)

I'm going to second Heliodoc and Fubar's caution from both a reservist and a CAP member standpoint.

On the military side, you have to be extremely careful and considerate to your employer.  I'm very lucky to have almost all veteran bosses.  But I am hearing higher increase in complaints and misery from my unit members who are not so lucky.

We have a looming problem right now in industry.  Many companies laid off, say, 4 out of 10 workers during the recession.  Economy is coming back, but they never rehired because now the remaining 6 employees are making the same profit at the 40% decrease in personnel cost. 

They have also started to push the limits of the law with intent.  They know that it's an average 2-3 years before a USERRA complaint is addressed.  Worse, a disturbing number of complaints have resulted in employer winning - especially those that have gone to court.  Big companies can afford big law firms.  Joe soldier will get the dept of labor version of a court appointed lawyer if he/she is lucky.

Some quotes from some of my members regarding thier employers these past few years:

"You know, XXXXX <company name removed> didn't sign up for you being in the guard"

"I don't care what 'duty' you are going to do or what 'orders' you've been given.  I authorize all leave in this division.  If you are not here next week, I will terminate with cause.  DO NOT QUOTE ME THE LAW, MISTER XXXXX"  (THIS WAS A GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION MANAGER)  The boss essentially told the member later "You call your lawyer, I'll call mine".

In both of these cases, I watched in disgust how the member's moral plummeted beyond reproach.  They also knew that no matter what the law said, the employer would get the first punch and they would be relegated to a long line of beurocracy, ultimately receiving a small award and having to answer "Can you explain this period" for every job they apply for afterwards.  They caved to the employers demands and either retired or never volunteered again.  I was disgusted with the absolute arrogance of these "bosses".  Ditto on the basic fact that weve got two wars and a major disaster going on.

I could go on with more, but you get the point.  While you are protected by the letter of the law, you are not free from the many well known tactics of employer snakyness.  They have hundreds of ways to edge you out of your position, find reasons for substandard performance, or to eliminate your position with little proof. 

It's an extremely fine line that I highly recommend you DO NOT push - or at least save it until most other options have been exhausted.

Again, I've been very lucky to work for a large company with a corporate office that does not tolerate such behaviour at business unit levels - but I'll never push the limit.

Just some thoughts for you....




Smoothice

Interesting points from everyone. Thank you. Good thaughts to think about. But, I look at it this way. If I am at work, and a plane goes down for real, I will risk the outcome for the sake of perhaps saving a person's life.

That's just me.

JayT

Quote from: Smoothice on January 26, 2010, 01:56:20 PM
Interesting points from everyone. Thank you. Good thaughts to think about. But, I look at it this way. If I am at work, and a plane goes down for real, I will risk the outcome for the sake of perhaps saving a person's life.

That's just me.

Unless you have kids, a too pay for, car payments, car insurance, etc etc. Idealism is great, but the real world get's in the way so very oftern. Job's aren't easy to come by these days, and it's not worth losing a good one if you can to go do a ramp check.

I wouldn't know of course. I'm just a twenty one year old living my dream of selling shrimp out of the back of a van.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

isuhawkeye

Its nice to think that you will be in a position to make a differnece in the life of an aircrew.  Hold on to that

arajca

Two steps to prepare for The Call:
1. Check your state laws.
2. Have a talk with your boss beforehand. Make sure he's aware this will not (hopefully) be a regular occurance. Find out if he will require some form of documentation. If so, make sure you can provide it.



Eclipse

Quote from: JThemann on January 26, 2010, 02:03:39 PMI'm just a twenty one year old living my dream of selling shrimp out of the back of a van.

Are you down by the river?

"That Others May Zoom"

JayT

Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2010, 03:31:31 PM
Quote from: JThemann on January 26, 2010, 02:03:39 PMI'm just a twenty one year old living my dream of selling shrimp out of the back of a van.

Are you down by the river?

I sold a lot of shrimp last year. I may move to selling lobster at the airport, or invest in a cooler and some ice.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

Rotorhead

Quote from: desertengineer1 on January 26, 2010, 01:50:14 AM
Quote from: Fubar on January 25, 2010, 06:42:21 PM.

Some quotes from some of my members regarding thier employers these past few years:

"You know, XXXXX <company name removed> didn't sign up for you being in the guard"

"I don't care what 'duty' you are going to do or what 'orders' you've been given.  I authorize all leave in this division.  If you are not here next week, I will terminate with cause.  DO NOT QUOTE ME THE LAW, MISTER XXXXX"  (THIS WAS A GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION MANAGER)  The boss essentially told the member later "You call your lawyer, I'll call mine".

I hope he did call his lawyer.
Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

desertengineer1

Quote from: Rotorhead on January 27, 2010, 01:33:35 AM

I hope he did call his lawyer.

Nope.  Most charge about $300 per hour.  He can only really file a complaint with the Dept of Labor and hope it will be addressed by an Ombudsman within a couple of years. 

Flying Pig

Quote from: PHall on January 26, 2010, 12:28:19 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 25, 2010, 06:51:01 PM
Quote from: Fubar on January 25, 2010, 06:42:21 PM
Before determining if your employer is obligated to give you time off for CAP missions, have you checked to see if the company is OK with you randomly disappearing? While they may be obligated to give you the time off, they're not obligated to keep you employed (at least in my state).

I would say you might want to recheck that - there's not much point in job protection if they can retaliate against you after the fact.  Any termination that could be shown connected to the CAP time off would be actionable in a number of ways.

(Though there are plenty of ways to nail people "creatively" if an employer is so inclined.)

Just ask the Guard and reserve members who have had promotions and such denied because they took time off to do their duty.
Even though employers are required by law to grant time off so the member can perform their duties, there are still a number of lawsuits filed every year against companies who violate the law.
CAP members can expect the same reactions... ::)

Geee....That sounds like my scenario.  I was in the Reserves, and was a cop.  I was thinking about re-enlisting whent a Sgt friend of mine at work pulled me aside and pointed out that I was the only guy in the entire agency that was in the Reserves.  He then politely pointed out that I needed to choose my career and stick with it.  Granted, this was pre 9-11 (2000 actually).  I decided not to re-enlist.
He wasnt threatening me.  I wasnt going to lose my job.  But it most surely would have probably been an issue trying out for SWAT, Detectives, etc.  You just need to feel out your employer before being so quick to throw out the "protection" card.

Thrashed

Most jobs are not going to let you do other stuff than your job during work.  You took that job with the understanding you would show up to do it.  I took a job knowing I can work any minute of the day/night, weekends, holidays, etc.  If I asked to do anything else instead, they would fire me. If you have an agreement with your employer to do it, fine.  Mine would laugh in my face if I asked for time off for anything, including a CAP mission.

Save the triangle thingy

heliodoc

Well folks there you go

My brothers in arms getting the squeeze by their employers.

IF CAP gets priority over the paid armed forces (reserves and Guard) CAP members who have not served and get a "pass" from an employer...

Going to look very fishy..

Proving to me that CAP folks getting the 15 days paid or non paid off from your employer, are just lucky and that riding on the coat tails of folks who wear the uniform getting the threats from their employer(s) are riding that very slippery slope.  There are volunteer groups that already have this and CAP is on that bandwagon!!

Choose your leave wisely, CAPers.  There a few of us out there unemployed and some of us in the Guard and Reserve system...WE are the ones that know these things.  We have ran point for you folks who continually want days off for a "mission" or the goodness of doing CAP's work

Remember, it's a different economy out there and my brothers who are coming home from Far East excursions are coming home to no work or the threats from their employers.  CAP members ought to look at those facts, and by really analyzing those facts and knowing some of the warfighters are coming home to this, makes me wonder when CAP folks are going to STAND DOWN for their 15 days of Annual training?

Think about some of these things when you address these threads...we folks who have been there (threats and unemployment) can speak with some authority.  Time off for CAP, prove to us RM and unemployed folk YOU deserve a day off for CAP ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) >:( >:( >:(

Eclipse

#22
Knock it off.

Not everyone in CAP lives with hourly fear for their job, and this has nothing to do with comparing CAP leave to Armed Forces leave, which is already protected by federal law and (sadly) abused by both sides.

We get it - know your situation, make sure your company is comfortable with you being gone and that you are comfortable with the situation.

A lot of companies encourage their employees to be active in public and community service and in turn make a fair amount of hay out of that encouragement from a marketing and "corporate partner" standpoint.

Generally, most CAP members will never need to flash a state statute in front of their boss to go and help throw sandbags, fins an airplane or bail somebody out of a jam.

Its not a "get out of work free" card, and its not a "day off" if you use it that way, you deserve to have a problem.  Odds are you'll be working twice as hard as normal and possibly not getting paid for it.

Quote from: heliodoc on January 28, 2010, 04:54:16 AMmakes me wonder when CAP folks are going to STAND DOWN for their 15 days of Annual training?

15 days?  Yeah, I'll let you know next time I only do 15 days of full-time service for CAP in a given year.

Last year I had that knocked before the end of February. (and yes, they were week days, unpaid, no vacation)

"That Others May Zoom"

Short Field

Reminds me of the discussions when I was on active duty and we would have a major storm roll in.  Only essential personnel had to report to duty and all non-essential personnel could stay home.    Most of us showed up for work simply because we were not going to label outselves as "non-essential".
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Rotorhead

Quote from: desertengineer1 on January 28, 2010, 03:17:07 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on January 27, 2010, 01:33:35 AM

I hope he did call his lawyer.

Nope.  Most charge about $300 per hour.  He can only really file a complaint with the Dept of Labor and hope it will be addressed by an Ombudsman within a couple of years.

Did he do that?
Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

N Harmon

Quote from: Eclipse on January 28, 2010, 05:08:21 AMA lot of companies encourage their employees to be active in public and community service and in turn make a fair amount of hay out of that encouragement from a marketing and "corporate partner" standpoint.

My employer is big on volunteering and community service. So much so that they even have their own volunteer service program for people who aren't otherwise involved in something.

I have a decent arrangement where I can take vacation time on short notice when called upon by CAP (normally they want a week or two notice).

NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

desertengineer1

Quote from: Rotorhead on January 28, 2010, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: desertengineer1 on January 28, 2010, 03:17:07 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on January 27, 2010, 01:33:35 AM

I hope he did call his lawyer.

Nope.  Most charge about $300 per hour.  He can only really file a complaint with the Dept of Labor and hope it will be addressed by an Ombudsman within a couple of years.

Did he do that?

I don't think so.  He didn't go on the TDY, and is still employed, which eludes that he just let it go.

It's easy to say "just tell them to talk to your lawyer", but as I said earlier, the long term result is most likely no-win based on the last 5 years or so.  There's a huge difference between what the law says and what actually happens.  I'm hearing about three years before complaints are addressed legally with respect to USERRA violations.  The previous administration did, in my opinion, very little to back up a lot of talk about taking care of citizen soldiers. 

In most cases, I hope a properly managed "re-education" caused the issue to be resolved.  But you have to be extremely careful when pushing the legal button.  It's a Nuke option.

A very wise friend at work once said "remember, you could be right....right out the door".

I was more disgusted at the greedy division manager who cared more about her metrics than her employee's military responsibility.  Aside from being a blatant disregard for the law, it flies in the face of everything the citizen soldier stands for.  This guy made an oath to serve at the cost of his life if necessary, and this idiot manager cares more about her quarterly performance.  Yeah, don't get me started.... >:(

wingnut55

It is unfortunate that these bad things happen, however I like many that I know have had little problems with their employers and I am talking many aircrew. I think good public relation skills are important in all cases. CAP is not well known and the lack of missions makes us seem innocuous to many. However the job does get done by those who can get off to do it, or the crews are made up of retired country gentle-people.   I hope that some of you don't hold it against those who can respond because that would be a little shameful.

It is more important to realize the layered response we have to any situation. In most cases if it is an ELT we only need an Aircraft and a DF team, not much else (IC). My point is that this country depends on Volunteer Fireman and rescue crews in thousands of community's. Those community's don't fire those people!! Why be venomous over people who can, employers who do, States Who Give the Legal Permission. First and foremost: Do so with your employer's permission, don't force it down their throat, and don't use the time to take cadets to a museum!!   

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: wingnut55 on January 30, 2010, 11:18:33 AM
It is more important to realize the layered response we have to any situation. In most cases if it is an ELT we only need an Aircraft and a DF team, not much else (IC). My point is that this country depends on Volunteer Fireman and rescue crews in thousands of community's. Those community's don't fire those people!! Why be venomous over people who can, employers who do, States Who Give the Legal Permission. First and foremost: Do so with your employer's permission, don't force it down their throat, and don't use the time to take cadets to a museum!!
I think what many of us have tried to state is don't depend upon a law to cram down your employers' throats but instead sell the idea of what CAP is and what you do.  At times it just may not be possible for some(many) of us to get time off from work for a CAP mission, due to an important project that must be completed for our employers' benefit.

As far as Volunteer FD & EMS, in many rural communities they do have problems with staffing because many of their volunteers commute out of the area to paid employment.  So they've had to do some additional recruiting for retirees and housewives/house husbands that stay home or those that work from home and have some flexibility.  Some even use older teenager from the high schools to supplement fire & EMS crews.

So CAP can have the same staffing/response challenges of these other volunteer public safety organizations.
RM