The Chuck Yeagar Award

[lordmonar]

Nope, the info is correct as posted in the quote.

Where did that quote come from?

It is not in 39-3 P215 or P15.

[Eclipse]

Our good friend the KB...

[SarDragon]

It was also in some material sent out soliciting submissions for the teacher award. I saw it at a squadron meeting a few weeks ago. It might also have been in an email, but I don't have it here.

[Cecil DP]

There are two "Crossfield Awards" One is given by CAP for completing the Master's level of the Aerospace Education track. The other is awarded by the National Conference on Aviation and Space Exploration, to an outstanding AE teacher who may or may not be a CAP member

[flyboy53]

Yes, it is in CAPR 39-3., page 6, on the top right of the e-reg page:

17. The A. Scott Crossfield Award. Awarded by
National Headquarters to members who have earned the
master level rating in the aerospace education specialty
track and served as aerospace education officer.

Flyguy: Yes, you are correct, you will need to progress through the technician and senior ratings before achieving a master in order to qualify for the Crossfield Award. Please check out the speciality track guide to start. The exams for each level are on line. You won't regret it.

[Short Field]

I've also long been a strong advocate that AEOs complete observer training if they were not already pilots.

We strongly advocate ALL our pilots complete observer training.   National funds wings based on total number of mission pilots and total number of mission observers.  MPs who are MOs get counted twice.

[flyguy06]

I've also long been a strong advocate that AEOs complete observer training if they were not already pilots.

We strongly advocate ALL our pilots complete observer training.   National funds wings based on total number of mission pilots and total number of mission observers.  MPs who are MOs get counted twice.

I dont think thats fair. Everybody doent want to be in ES. Every pilot doesnt need to be involved in missions. Cant I be a pilot and join CAP only to fly  cadet O rides. You mean I would be forced in a volunteer organization to go through training I dont want to go through?

[lordmonar]

No one said forced.  We strongly advocate....as in...."the more MOs and MPs we got on the books the more money we get for training"...no one is forcing anyone to take on any thing they don't want to.

[flyboy53]

I've also long been a strong advocate that AEOs complete observer training if they were not already pilots.

We strongly advocate ALL our pilots complete observer training.   National funds wings based on total number of mission pilots and total number of mission observers.  MPs who are MOs get counted twice.

I dont think thats fair. Everybody doent want to be in ES. Every pilot doesnt need to be involved in missions. Cant I be a pilot and join CAP only to fly  cadet O rides. You mean I would be forced in a volunteer organization to go through training I dont want to go through?

That was never the point. The point was giving AEOs credibility in their speciality and provide them with aviable mission skill. If all a pilot wants to do is haul cadts around on O-flights, fine. We were talking about AEOs. Besides, We are an aviation based organization.

[flyguy06]

Good idea.
I would love to get the Scott Crossfield Award. but i am currently heavy into CP. 

[Short Field]

If all a pilot wants to do is haul cadts around on O-flights, fine. We were talking about AEOs. Besides, We are an aviation based organization.

Pilots who can only do O'rides are fine with me.  However, when I look for O'ride pilots, I start with MPs first - and the ones who show up for SARs and SAREXs get first dibs on the free flying. 

[flyguy06]

If all a pilot wants to do is haul cadts around on O-flights, fine. We were talking about AEOs. Besides, We are an aviation based organization.

Pilots who can only do O'rides are fine with me.  However, when I look for O'ride pilots, I start with MPs first - and the ones who show up for SARs and SAREXs get first dibs on the free flying.

Well, thats not fair. Why look at Mission pilots first for O ride pilots? Again, some people may not have the desire tobe mission pilots. Why discriminate against them? Isnt CAP volunteer? You can come and choose the things you want o participate in. Why be penalized or put to the back of the line because you may not have the time to participate in SAREx's or you just have no interest. SO, if a CFII with 1000 hrs dual given comes to you and only wants to be an O ride pilot you wil tell him "AFter all the 300 hur Mission pilots who do no instructing have their pick" You would choose a 300 hour non instructor over a 1000 hour pilot who does nothing but instruct?

[heliodoc]

I agree with flyguy

There are plenty of CFI and CFII types that get very little chance to do the MP stuff all the time and why "discriminate" against them?

O flights ought to be done by other squadron line pilots who, at times, have to to wait for Johnny 30 year MP pilot to get to the front of the line

SAREX and O rides are two separate operations where you, quite possibly, have to come across to the right seater, as a true customer.

I remember so folks here writing about ALL those expectations for MO/MS in the right seat.  Leave to O-ride missions to the line pilots and not MP's.  They are orientation flights...the basics of getting cadets and seniors to understand and enjoy some of the options of flying and CAP flying.......not some feel good audience for Johnny 30 year MP for the right seater to ohhh and ahhh about just 'cuz one has 100,000 hours of CAP flying

Just because one shows up at 1000% of SAREX's and missions, by in no means, makes them a qualified O Flight pilot.  Just because Johnny 30 yr MP has zillions of hours...doesn't mean he /she is ace of the base in everything flying.  So squadrons have had a number of CFI's and airline drivers LEAVE CAP due to all the mickey mouse of the organization.   Saying Johnny 30 MP is the only thing going for O flights, is part of that Mickey Mouse

But this is CAP.....where EVERYTHING is up for debate

[lordmonar]

Well....maybe because ES is the primary purpose of the AIRCRAFT in the first place.

It is not discrimination.....but trying to force some of or more static members to join in the fun.

I would not go so far as saying "absolutely not" to someone who only wants to do O-rides.....but if you have a choice between an active MP and an O-ride only guy......I too would give the assignment to the MP pilot.   It gives more time to the MP and still fulfills the O-ride requirements for the cadets.  So we kill two birds with one stone.....saves money....increases the MP's skills and gets the cadets some air time.

[flyguy06]

Well....maybe because ES is the primary purpose of the AIRCRAFT in the first place.

It is not discrimination.....but trying to force some of or more static members to join in the fun.

I would not go so far as saying "absolutely not" to someone who only wants to do O-rides.....but if you have a choice between an active MP and an O-ride only guy......I too would give the assignment to the MP pilot.   It gives more time to the MP and still fulfills the O-ride requirements for the cadets.  So we kill two birds with one stone.....saves money....increases the MP's skills and gets the cadets some air time.

This is where I would disagree with you sir. I DO NOT believe that ES is th primary purpose of the aircraft in CAP. And too many old pilots have that attitude. Cadet Flying is a major mission in CAP. It is equally as important as ES. If it weren't, the USAF wouldn't fund it. Again, different people join CAP for different reasons. To say that in order to be an O ride pilot you MUST be a Mission pilot or to give favoritism to MP's is discrimination against those who either cannot be a MP or choose not to be a MP. Some people cant devote the time out of their busy schedules to go t MP training So do we just discard them?  everyone is CAP does not own their own business or has alot of money and cant take the time of a 40 hour week job to attend SARex's or NESA ( an d I am a NESA graduates so don't think I hate NESA, in fact, I loved it)

But I strongly disagree with the attitude that ES is CAP's primary mission. All three missions must be done to the same level. I dream of the day to see every cadet in my wing have at least one O ride. I dream of the day to see more cadet pilots in CAP. I joined CAP to introduce youths to aviation and flying which is my passion. Don't get me wrong, I am a MP and plan to become an IC oneday, but my primary reason for being in CAP is to teach cadets about flying and leadership.  SO, am I to be treated like a second class citizen because ES is not at the forefront of my interests?


We would loose a lot of good members if we made it a requirement to participate in ES or even looked favorably on people that do ES over people that opt not to.

Again, as I have said on other threads. the culture in CAP is turning into a "volunteer EMS organization that wants to wear polo shirts only and get out inthe woods and so search missions for ELT's that are going out of service" type of organization. and we are going to loose good people.


But hey,. once again (and I am guilty myself) I started this thread to say that I passed my Yeager award. How it turned into a discussion about O ride pilots vs MP's I have no idea. I guess its something I just have to deal with. lol

[Eclipse]

This is where I would disagree with you sir. I DO NOT believe that ES is th primary purpose of the aircraft in CAP. And too many old pilots have that attitude.

Sorry Fly, you need to accept this and move on.

The only reason we have government-funded airplanes is ES - the other advantages we take and make of having those planes is great and a value-add for Uncle Sam's money, but we don't have them so that we can provide cadets a handful of pattern rides (assuming they get them).

ES may not be the "primary" mission, but its the reason with have all the expensive toys, and its always going to fight for #1 with the CP, with AE being an afterthought, since most of the goals of the AE program are accomplished through the CP and ES.

You (nor anyone else), should make the mistake of equating your personal reasons for participating with the overall missions or goals of the organization as a whole.

[lordmonar]

Cadet Flying is a major mission in CAP.

I got to say you are not correct on this point.  Just look at the funding levels.

It is equally as important as ES. If it weren't, the USAF wouldn't fund it.

Yes...look at how the USAF funds it.  It is important....I do not gain say that....but equally?  I don't think so.  If push came to shove and we could only fund ES flying or O-rides...the USAF would fund the ES.

Again, different people join CAP for different reasons. To say that in order to be an O ride pilot you MUST be a Mission pilot or to give favoritism to MP's is discrimination against those who either cannot be a MP or choose not to be a MP.

Never said that to be an O-ride pilot you MUST be an MP as well.....I only said that if you had the choice between an MP and an O-ride only pilot....I would give the O-ride assignment to the MP.  It gives me more bang for the buck.

Some people cant devote the time out of their busy schedules to go t MP training So do we just discard them?

Again...never said that....don't agree with that sentiment at all.  We need everyone.  But if it came down two a choice....

everyone is CAP does not own their own business or has a lot of money and cant take the time of a 40 hour week job to attend SARex's or NESA ( an d I am a NESA graduates so don't think I hate NESA, in fact, I loved it)

Yes I understand....but if you got a guy who takes his time from his other commitments and does the ES training and he wants to do the O-rides as well....I would be more inclined to throw the O-ride missions his way vice giving them to the guy who only has time for O-rides.

But I strongly disagree with the attitude that ES is CAP's primary mission. All three missions must be done to the same level. I dream of the day to see every cadet in my wing have at least one O ride. I dream of the day to see more cadet pilots in CAP.

I'm not one of those guys.  Never said that ES is CAP's primary mission....I only said the purpose that CAP bought the aircraft....their primary purpose....was to fulfill our ES mission.  There is no reason why you can't get all your cadets and O-ride.  There is plenty of money to fly O-rides.  In fact CAP (at least NVWG) routinely underflies their O-ride monies for one reason or another.  But the fact remains.....the airplanes are here for ES.  Point in case.  Last November my wing CC was reporting that CAP was not getting it's congressional plus up like they were expecting.  One of the first things they cut back on was the O-ride monies.   

I joined CAP to introduce youths to aviation and flying which is my passion. Don't get me wrong, I am a MP and plan to become an IC oneday, but my primary reason for being in CAP is to teach cadets about flying and leadership.  SO, am I to be treated like a second class citizen because ES is not at the forefront of my interests?

Don't get your pants in a bunch...I too am mainly a CP guy.  I do ES as well (MO, GTL, and the rest of the mission base alphabet).....No one is saying we should be treating CP and O-ride pilots as second class citezens.  But we have to have priorities.  We have to balance everyones needs and desires against a limited amount of aircraft and funded flying.

So....back to the main point.  If there is a choice between giving the assignment to an MP or an O-ride only pilot....the MP is more likely to get the assignment because....I'll get more out of him, he has committed more time, and in the long run the mission gets completed.

We would loose a lot of good members if we made it a requirement to participate in ES or even looked favorably on people that do ES over people that opt not to.

Maybe so....but that is the nature of any business.  We have to balance the costs of doing something against the benefits.  Assigning Pilot X to the O-ride flight.....gets us what?  The pilot gains experience and the cadets gets an O-ride.  If I give the assignment to an MP he becomes a better MP and a better O-ride pilot as well as getting the O-ride mission done.  Giving the assignment to an O-ride only pilot, he becomes a better O-ride pilot and we get the O-ride mission done.  Which of those two options give more benefit to CAP as a whole?

Again, as I have said on other threads. the culture in CAP is turning into a "volunteer EMS organization that wants to wear polo shirts only and get out in the woods and so search missions for ELT's that are going out of service" type of organization. and we are going to loose good people.

If we turn into a "hard core cadet only oriented program" we will just as many people.  Again no one is saying that you can not specialize.  There are plenty of ES only people, AE only people, and CP only people.  There a lots of admin only people as well.  But if you got a limited number of "goodies" to hand out.  How do you choose who to give them to?  Do you give them to the guy who only works one of CAP's missions....or do you give them to the guy who is doing all of them?

But hey,. once again (and I am guilty myself) I started this thread to say that I passed my Yeager award. How it turned into a discussion about O ride pilots vs MP's I have no idea. I guess its something I just have to deal with. lol

We all do that now and again....congraduations on the Yeager by the way. 

[SarDragon]

My unit has a 350+hr/yr airplane. About a third of those hours are for cadet O-flights, and we have an aggressive O-ride program. However, I do believe that non-mission rated pilots should stand equally in the queue to fly O-rides.

We just did O-rides last weekend, and one of the four pilots was non-mission rated. We take whoever is available, without any prioritizing according to ratings. If someone is O-ride qual'd, he (or she) is in the pool.

[Eclipse]

We take whoever is available, without any prioritizing according to ratings. If someone is O-ride qual'd, he (or she) is in the pool.

+1

[flyguy06]

Patrick, i understand what you are saying and I appreciate that. The reason I get so emotional about the prioritation of missions is for one my CAP job dictates that I promote the CP and two:

The Squaddron I used to belong too has many older members in it. I am talking members in their 70's and 80's. out of 6 pilots, I was the ONLY MP. We have two commingup but havent done the MS yet. We have two members that are in their 80's they are veryinteresteted in flying cadets,. and thats all they want to do., They dont want to be involved in ES. One of them is  83 years old and feels all that training you have to go through(Gen ES, MS, MP, two SAREx's) is more that he wants to do or maybe is able to do he is a Korean War C-130 pilot and vet. He flies C-172's on a regular basis. He loves the cadets and wants to fly cadet O rides. Why should I deny this veteran the opportunity to participate in CAP the way he wants to? Why should Iput that MP quaified pilot in front of him?

I am a CFI with 1100 hours of which is 400 dual given. I take non pilots flying for a living. Iteach flying for a living. Supose I wasnt a MP. You suggest that the 350 hour MP who is not a CFI should be given first opportunity to fly cadets. The purpose of an O ride is to introduce cadets to aerodynamics, flight controls, weather and so forth. I teach this stuff daily. A non CFI does not. Just because you can fly does not mean you can teach flying You have to know how to convey information to a non pilot in a way they will understand. thats what CFI's do.  So, again, who makes the better O ride pilto? The 300 hour CFI or the 2000 non CFI mission Pilot?

btw, in 2008, I went to Las Vegas for an interview with Scenic Air. I went to a Nellis Comp Squaron CAP meeting. I enjoyed it very much. didnt like Las vegas though (no grass) lol

Thanks for the compliment.