FEMA's Recognition of CAP -- CERT Teams Membership

[RADIOMAN015]

Interesting article on Citizens Emergency Response Teams.
See the FAQ at:
http://www.citizencorps.gov/cert/faq.shtm
Q: Can someone under age 18 participate?
A: This is a local decision. Someone under 18 should be with a parent or have permission to attend. Some communities have reached out specifically to young people. Winter Springs High School in Florida offers the training to high school students. You can read an article about this. CERT is a great way to address the community service requirements for high school students and provides students with useful skills. CERT also fits nicely with training given to Boy and Girl Scouts and the Civil Air patrol.
RM

[FARRIER]

I know the Incident Command System has been a place for awhile now, but, why hasn't CERT tried to make an active paternship with us, being some of our skill sets do overlap? Just thinking out loud.

[RiverAux]

Because there is no "CERT", there are hundreds of local CERT teams usually sponsored by the local fire department or emergency management agency.

Then, of course is the fact that CAP has severe restrictions on CAP members doing a lot of what CERT teams train to do (firefighting, providing medical care, search inside damaged buildings (urban SAR).     

[wuzafuzz]

I don't think CAP's restrictions are much different than CERT training.  Their firefighting is pretty much limited to fire extinguishers, building searches are limited to lightly damaged structures (they advise against entering moderate or heavily damaged buildings IIRC).  The major difference is first aid, which individual CERT groups may decide not to do anyway. 

CAP would do well to create a CERT SQTR.  We already deploy people for misc tasks after disasters.  It's kind of silly to do so without basic training  in foreseeable scenarios.  Granted there would be some overlap with ground team ratings, but that just makes it easier for some folks.

[RiverAux]

We actually have that qualification already, just no strategy for exactly how we are supposed to do it.  Any urban SAR (meaning inside building searches no matter the level of damage) requires special permission to perform and CERT firefighting while based on simple equipment goes beyond the sort of emergency use CAP people are trained for (putting out fire in cockpit or vehicle, for example).  Part of the CERT training is about putting out regular fires in regular houses including things such as shutting off utilities, assisting in evacuation of buildings that are on fire, using wet standpipe hoselines to fight fires in buildings equipped with them, etc. 

I really don't think our leaders looked into what CERT teams are supposed to do before authorizing it as an SQTR or else they would have realized how unrealistic for CAP to be doing most of this under our current regulations.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to CAP members doing the light urban SAR or first aid stuff just that it goes against our current regs and unless they change them to address it, the qual is useless.  The firefighting stuff is good basic knowledge, but not really for CAP.

[JoeTomasone]

I may be wrong here, but I was always under the impression that most CERT training was intended for reactive action, not proactive action. 

In other words, they learn to fight fires not so that they can seek them out, but in case they are confronted with one.

Such reactive training could certainly be valuable to anyone, including CAP members.

[SarMaster]

Most CERT Programs are sponsored by a County or Local Fire Dept.   The program was designed to prepare citizens in California to be able to respond to their local community and be self sufficient in the aftermath of an earth quake.   It is good training...in a Catastrophic event FEMA is looking at possibly using anyone CERT trained and associated with a team to help augment the real USAR Teams. The key is to be associated with a team.  You can find your local Fire Dept will offer the training free of charge....There is lots of federal grant money available to those Dept's to help equip and train the teams.  As a matter of fact during Hurricane Charlie FEMA paid for several CERT Teams to be on standby, flew them to FL and they were in staging as a federal asset to assist if needed ( They were never used...but they were getting paid pretty good to sit around)..The teams were actually CAP members that were hardcore about CERT....

[LTC Don]

We actually have that qualification already, just no strategy for exactly how we are supposed to do it.  Any urban SAR (meaning inside building searches no matter the level of damage) requires special permission to perform and CERT firefighting while based on simple equipment goes beyond the sort of emergency use CAP people are trained for (putting out fire in cockpit or vehicle, for example).  Part of the CERT training is about putting out regular fires in regular houses including things such as shutting off utilities, assisting in evacuation of buildings that are on fire, using wet standpipe hoselines to fight fires in buildings equipped with them, etc. 

I really don't think our leaders looked into what CERT teams are supposed to do before authorizing it as an SQTR or else they would have realized how unrealistic for CAP to be doing most of this under our current regulations.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to CAP members doing the light urban SAR or first aid stuff just that it goes against our current regs and unless they change them to address it, the qual is useless.  The firefighting stuff is good basic knowledge, but not really for CAP.

I am a CERT trainer, and I don't know where you received that information, but you are incorrect, and are spreading some pretty dangerous preconceived notions.

The ONLY firefighting authorized for a CERT team to perform is to extinguish trash can sized (and by trash can, the size can you would find inside ones home, the ones about a foot-18 inches tall) fires with fire extinguishers.  Under NO circumstances are CERT team members to fight structure fires, and certainly not to enter buildings actively on fire.  Where did that crazy talk come from? 

CERT members are trained to assess damaged structures and to determine if they are safe to enter to perform search procedures.  Buildings deemed unsafe ARE NOT entered, but marked for more highly trained personnel to assess and respond accordingly.

This is not to say that CERT teams, once they are formed and operating, cannot supplement their training with more advanced curriculums, as many have. But, the core curriclum as provided by the CitizenCorps.gov site, does not allow lay people to just start performing full out firefighting and urban SAR.

The CERT curriculum is perfect for the CAP disaster relief program, and CAP should have jumped on board with this when the program was first implemented in California.  We've had a horrible if nonexistent training program for disaster relief services although we've always advertised that CAP provides disaster relief services (by providing SAR trained resources who don't know squat about urban disaster operations).  National should be taking a highly aggressive role in adopting and enhancing the CERT curriculum to cross train GTMs with CERT, but also with a slant towards members that only want to perform CERT, and not traditional SAR operations.  Sure, there is a fair amount of crossover skills-wise, but not fully.

Having said that, CERT is heavily integrated with 'mainstream' emergency services, and we all know CAP has not done a very good job of nuturing that interface process.  So squadrons interested in getting involved in CERT better have a motivated, and aggressive ES officer AND staff (IAW with CAPR 20-1, that pesky little publication that has -gasp- JOB descriptions) that can work those necessary relationships.

It would truly be self-defeating for National to 'cop-out' and say, well, all those who want to be CERT 'qualified' must also be GTM-3 (or 2, or even 1)....that doubling up of SQTRs will just push the bulk of those interested in CERT (disaster relief services) right out of the program.

Our squadron has four instructors, and we are working with our County's emergency management folks to develop a comprehensive program here.  We are very vulnerable to hurricanes in our area, so there is a definite need for CERT, especially deployable CERT resources that can head to the coast after the event.  CERT is exactly the kind of program CAP has needed for literally decades for it's disaster services program.

Cheers,

[heliodoc]

Good on you Don for clearing that up

I fully realized CERT was limited to the firefighting you mentioned when I was monitoring grants for CC and CERT and attending some of their training sessions.

Don't know where CAPers get their info...

But it is REALLY high time CAP gets a REAL training program for DR and stop the claims about disaster relief.  It's a new world out there. 

Developing DR SQTR's need to be a little different than "CAP SAR" SQTR's....but there are those in CAP that know everything about SAR, DR, Base security and and plenty of other things and they will certainly keep the mis information machine moving!!

[wuzafuzz]

Don, great job explaining what CERT is supposed to be and how it can work within CAP. 

I am preparing to take the CERT instructor training and believe it is THE proper way to accomplish DR training within CAP.  Not that everyone has to take DR training, but some locales would really benefit from a CAP CERT capability.  In spite of CAP's long history, I suspect more emergency managers understand CERT than CAP.

As for things CAP doesn't want us to do; we simply customize a bit so we stay within regs.  Plenty of CERT organizations have found specialty niches and customize their bag of tricks to meet that need.

[wuzafuzz]

For those who are curious about CERT.  Get the real scoop:

Home page for CERT
http://www.citizencorps.gov/cert/

Training, including IS-317 overview
http://www.citizencorps.gov/cert/training_mat.shtm

[LTC Don]

CERT was specifically designed for the joe-blow citizen to be self sufficient for up to 72 hours following a significant event that over taxes traditional emergency services.  The main idea being that small communities like subdivisions or apartment buildings would form CERT groups and provide support (to the extent of their training and capabilities) until traditional emergency services can respond.  One of the things that makes the idea of CAP CERT so attractive, is that CAP CERT can become a significant force multiplier to a community CERT group that has been seriously compromised by the event, and is exactly the type of role  CAP emergency services was designed for, to provide a support and relief.

Since CAP members involved in emergency services aren't the typical 'joe-blow' citizen (lay person), the CERT program becomes even more attractive, and can be easily enhanced with additional modules/field training, that would make CAP a very attractive resource to emergency managers.

With the local/wing/region/national resource capability, CAP can rapidly ramp up resources in a significant event and with the standardized CERT curriculum, it isn't a big stretch to get the training done. The challenge is developing the necessary infrastructure with local/state/and Federal emergency managers and the communication necessary between the beauracracies to make the 'system' work.

CERT on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=112946977978

Cheers,

[RiverAux]

I am a CERT trainer, and I don't know where you received thatinformation, but you are incorrect, and are spreading some prettydangerous preconceived notions.

Sorry Don, but my information is based upon CERT's own training materials at http://www.citizencorps.gov/cert/training_downloads.shtmd  I'd expect an instructor to be very familiar with the instructor and participants guide. 

From the fire safety section instructor guide, regarding shutting off utilities, evacuations

   
• The role of CERTs in firesafety:
  
  Putout small fires.
• Preventadditional fires.
• Shutoffutilities.§
• Assistwith evacuations where necessary.
• [/l][/l]

      

• Under NO circumstances are CERT team members to fight structure fires, and certainly not to enter buildings actively on fire. 

  Really?  What about this in the backup to the slide about sizing up fires?  Obviously they're talking entering a house that has a fire in it. 
  
     
  
           

  • Assess and communicate the damageTake a lap around the building.  Try to determine what has happened, what ishappening now, and how bad things can really get.Other parts then talk about evaluating what sort of structure it is and its type of construction to help you decide how and whether to attempt to fight the fire.  Seems like they're encouraging entry to me.

    
    Regarding use of wet standpipes and fire hose:
       

    [/q]

  • Explainthat interior wet standpipes are usually in commercial and apartment buildingsand consist of 100 feet of 1½-inch jacketed hose with a ³/₈-inch nozzle tip. They deliver up to 125 gallons of water per minute.
    
    Cautionthe group always to work in three-person teams when using an interior wetstandpipe.  One person handles the hose,another bleeds the air from the line, and the third person controls the waterpressure.
  [/l][/l]
  
           
  • This same language is in the participants manual as well.  They do mention to leave this out when training neighborhood teams, but obviously they intend to do it for urbanized CERT teams.
    
    
                
    • 
      They do spend the majority of their time talking about using fire extinguishers and this is only a sidebar, but I was accurate at portraying what is included in the curriculum.
     
  

[/list]

[RiverAux]

I am a CERT trainer, and I don't know where you received thatinformation, but you are incorrect, and are spreading some prettydangerous preconceived notions.

Sorry Don, but my information is based upon CERT's own training materials at http://www.citizencorps.gov/cert/training_downloads.shtmd  I'd expect an instructor to be very familiar with the instructor and participants guide. 

From the fire safety section instructor guide, regarding shutting off utilities, evacuations

   
• The role of CERTs in firesafety:
  
  Putout small fires.
• Preventadditional fires.
• Shutoffutilities.§
• Assistwith evacuations where necessary.[/l][/l]

• Under NO circumstances are CERT team members to fight structure fires, and certainly not to enter buildings actively on fire. 

  Really?  What about this in the backup to the slide about sizing up fires?  Obviously they're talking entering a house that has a fire in it. 
  
  
        
  • 
       
    
             

    • Assess and communicate the damageTake a lap around the building.  Try to determine what has happened, what ishappening now, and how bad things can really get.Other parts then talk about evaluating what sort of structure it is and its type of construction to help you decide how and whether to attempt to fight the fire.  Seems like they're encouraging entry to me.

      
      Regarding use of wet standpipes and fire hose:
      

    • Explain that interior wet standpipes are usually in commercial and apartment buildingsand consist of 100 feet of 1½-inch jacketed hose with a ³/₈-inch nozzle tip. They deliver up to 125 gallons of water per minute.
      
      Caution the group always to work in three-person teams when using an interior wetstandpipe.  One person handles the hose,another bleeds the air from the line, and the third person controls the waterpressure.

    This same language is in the participants manual as well.  They do mention to leave this out when training neighborhood teams, but obviously they intend to do it for urbanized CERT teams.They do spend the majority of their time talking about using fire extinguishers and this is only a sidebar, but I was accurate at portraying what is included in the curriculum.   

[PHall]

Gee, which one believe? Someone who get's his info off a website and has no other experience or somebody who is actually teaching the material.

You make the call...

[heliodoc]

Refer  also to CERT and Fire Corps (another in the FEMA related volunteerism that the past Pres Administration pressed upon)

Depending on the community...some FD's are using CERT for the "simpler" and easier to manage BEFORE the situation escalates...

I would have to say the the Instructors Guide and Participants guide are pretty much for awareness issues and instructor emphasis on safety.

Sizeup......something one would want to do BEFORE it is even decided upon to act.  Small fires escalating to a larger fire in an apartment....If I got a CERT guy/gal in an apartment complex that knows how to handle a 1 1/2 inch dia hose on a floor while getting the dwellers out...

HMMMMMM  I wonder what chapter to pull up on the Internets???  Lemeee see here it says......you insert it

I would imagine a small action while 911 is called or on the way, would be OK, wouldn't it River??

This is the splitting hairs issues I got with CAP folk.....the paralysis of the analysis

[RiverAux]

Gee, which one believe? Someone who get's his info off a website and has no other experience or somebody who is actually teaching the material.

You make the call...

Uh, its CERTS own materials on their own website.  If that isn't good enough for you, I don't know what might be. I would think a CAP member of all folks would realize that it isn't uncommon for participants in a program to not fully understand it or even for their own instructors to not teach everything exactly as envisioned by the national program.

[heliodoc]

I would say the same for alll the iterations of training materials that CAP hasn't  standardized for OVER 30 years, River.

Lighten up on the the 10 year old program.... I am sure there are plenty o' corrections to hand out..... CAP ...how many iterations of 60-1 / 60-3 have there been??  How about putting a suggestion to CERT from our friends at CAP? 

There still needs to be improvements as told to me by FEMA folks at the ICS 300/ 400 Train the Trainer course in Emmitsburg.

Alot of this stuff is produced by CIVILIAN contractors to FEMA looking for that deep pocket trough the Guv has.....

[wuzafuzz]

I don't care if some CERT documents talk about fighting apartment fires, defusing terrorist nukes, or fending off Godzilla; CAP can still define it's own standards within the CERT umbrella.  It's not like CERT is an all or nothing proposition.  As I mentioned earlier, there are plenty of groups doing their own thing within CERT.

We should either train our folks to a reasonable level or we should stop bragging about CAPs disaster response capabilities.

Look at it this way: does CERT training educate our folks to be safer when participating in disaster response?  Yes.  Can we customize to meet our needs?  Again, the answer is yes.  Does doing nothing, like we have been, make sense?  A resounding NO.

[RiverAux]

Perhaps they teach things a little differently wherever Don is from and maybe I was a little harsh.  But, if true, it brings up an interesting question of just what a CAP CERT qualification means if the official curriculum (and not just the normal variation in how individual instructors teach) varies so much. 

However, if we're going to do the program, we've got to do the program.  Does some town want a CAP CERT team that can't do what their local town CERT team does?  If we're going to use the name, we've got to use the program and make whatever adjustments in our regs and policies are needed to make it feasible to do so.