Gray and white NB proposal.

[Major Carrales]

You know, I once posted a "What would your "Dream Uniform" for a CP Look like?" (the question being "What would, if you had the power to do it, your Cadet Program uniforms look like?" with rules for debate, submission and discussion) on CADETSTUFF sometime around 29 Jun 2008, and do you know what I was told?

From MUSTANG...

Major, no one else is saying it, so I will: You gotta be kidding.

Speaking on my own behalf (though I don't doubt many others are of the same mentality), an exercise for the sake of exercise is pretty much wasted time that few of us have. There's been no reason to suspect that CAP needs to come up with a Cadet Programs-specific uniform. So what's the dealy-o, man? This is not Versace's online gallery of fashion proposals. While well-intentioned, bear in mind that many in these threads have pleaded to the point of near insanity for people to focus less on uniforms and more on substance, lest we perpetuate a shallow program.

Then...

Speaking on my own behalf (though I don't doubt many others are of the same mentality), dreaming up uniforms or finding ways to squeeze in a service cap isn't really entertainment for most (at least I strongly suspect). It's effort that for me, could easily be spent elsewhere (and you can bet that in some official capacity, my opinion gets enforced). Cadet majors or senior member majors all can be doing more beneficial things on behalf of the cadet program than entertaining themselves (and subtracting productive minutes from one's day) by doodling pictures of uniforms. Harsh? Perhaps.

continuing on with...

Speaking on my own behalf (though I don't doubt many others are of the same mentality), Good Lord, man; why would you dream stuff up, with all the time associated for such an effort, if you don't support it? Please come over and help me with my lawn...I'm hosting a party tomorrow and if you've that sort of free time, I'll put you to good use. Might even give you a Coke if you work for it.

Phall wrote...

Why do you feel the need to "reinvent the wheel" by designing a new uniform?

...and then...

1. CAP is already way too obsessed over uniform stuff. A mental exercise is on this topic is at minimum unproductive, and really leans toward counter-productive. Monty has raised some great points about this.

Now, I imagine times have changed (that thread got an 11 month jump where people were less vitriolic) but why did no one here jump all over this in a same manner.  This, and a few e-mails and PMs that were less than cordial and downright condescending, were the order of the day.

These included little gems like...

Joe, i'm actually not big into personally trashing people in plain view of the public. For me though, honestly I can't see spending a lot of time daydreaming about imaginary clothing and accessory possibilities when there is so much work to do in actually teaching youth some actual life and leadership skills. And if you think you're already doing a fine job at that, there's an even larger task of equipping other adults to go forth and do the same.

and...

So I guess all i'm saying is that i'd rather see your time, abilities, and effort (which you clearly have) applied toward something that actually matters. I know the cadets in your sphere of influence would benefit greatly from that too. And I suspect, over time, so would you!

Then more on my "reputation..."

As I said, in my assessment, you have a reputation with some of the people here. If you're unhappy with that reputation, you are the only one who can change it. Whether you're willing to do so is up to you, else adopt a "screw y'all" attitude and go on with your day. sup to you.

After that, and a few issues where cadet parents in my unit came saying that their children were treated less than professionally by known well known threadsters, I decided to end my regular postings on CADETSTUFF.

Just thought I would point out that there must have been some change in the air to warrant the continuation of this thread while I was lambasted in that one.  Seems as if the best thing to do is not to design any new uniforms.

By the way, the "rules" were as followed...

1) Submissions must be in the form of drawings (images that can be posted)
2) Do not post exisiting uniforms/uniform images (for copyright reasons), or uniforms/uniform images from popular shows (Star Trek/Star Wars/et al) and say that is what you want to look like.
3) You cannot comment on any uniform proposal unless A) you have posted an idea yourself, B) PM'ed the originator, C) have a valid point/additional image that will add to the idea
4) Do not post to "make fun" of people's artwork or ideas
5) You can have several sets of uniform (Dress, Field)
6) You can have someone else draw if for you, only give them credit.

[Pumbaa]

Sparky

The more things change the more they stay the same my friend.

My personal opinion is CAP should get out of the military uniform (at least for seniors) PERIOD.  There are enough 'uniforms' that can be adopted quickly with minimal costs, that would not "P" off mama blue.

My suggestion, Black "BDU" pants and a light color polo with insignia and name/rank on it.  Otherwise a khaki "BDU" pant, with dark polo.  Black 'Rocky'/'Bates' style footwear.

For formals, why not just standardize on a business suit?  Black or Navy Blue...  No need for all the bling.

Now for those who complain that those working with cadets should be in uniform.  First.. It is a Cadet program, the cadets run it with GUIDANCE from the seniors. Cadets do not need to see seniors running around in an AF uniform.

Look at a kids football team, basketball etc...  Now look at the coach(s)... is he in the same uniform as the kids?  Can you figure out who is the coach?  Who is the ultimate authority? Do those kids listen to and respect the coach even if he is not dressed like them?

These uniform threads are going to go on ad-nausium.  I would bet that even if my suggestion is adopted it will still happen....

[MIKE]

Or, for that matter, the AF doesn't have issues with the USCG (and Auxiliary) wearing some AF uniform items.

Do you actually know which items those are?  Because I do.  And the commonality is probably a lot less than you assume.

[pixelwonk]

Just thought I would point out that there must have been some change in the air to warrant the continuation of this thread while I was lambasted in that one. 

Not change in the air.  Just mob mentality at work.

Seems as if the best thing to do is not to design any new uniforms.

wisdom.

[Major Carrales]

Just thought I would point out that there must have been some change in the air to warrant the continuation of this thread while I was lambasted in that one. 

Not change in the air.  Just mob mentality at work.

Seems as if the best thing to do is not to design any new uniforms.

wisdom.

Thanks, Tedda.  This thing with uniforms is becoming a fiasco.  I hope that when this latest round ends...we can actually have a uniform with longevity.  That would end all this bickering.

[Major Rob]

I'm very happy with the Grey and Whites. I think it's a nice looking uniform that is unique to CAP. I agree that standardizing the shade of grey would be great. However, the only real changes I'd like to see are the addition of a flight cap and jacket, as mentioned above. Wearing the CAP baseball cap with this uniform is OK, but a flight cap would look a lot sharper. And, having everybody wear a different jacket during the cooler months just makes it harder to tell who's actually in uniform, until they take the jacket off.

I like the suggestions above: Grey flight cap with CAP devices and black jacket with epaulets. I think these would look great with the grey and white uniform! And, these are changes that could be made easily and with a minimum of expense to members. So, why not?

[Pumbaa]

Be careful Capt Rob, the uniform nazi's are going to jump all over you for liking the grays.

Put on your asbestos underwear.

[FARRIER]

Sparky

The more things change the more they stay the same my friend.

My personal opinion is CAP should get out of the military uniform (at least for seniors) PERIOD.  There are enough 'uniforms' that can be adopted quickly with minimal costs, that would not "P" off mama blue.

My suggestion, Black "BDU" pants and a light color polo with insignia and name/rank on it.  Otherwise a khaki "BDU" pant, with dark polo.  Black 'Rocky'/'Bates' style footwear.

For formals, why not just standardize on a business suit?  Black or Navy Blue...  No need for all the bling.

Now for those who complain that those working with cadets should be in uniform.  First.. It is a Cadet program, the cadets run it with GUIDANCE from the seniors. Cadets do not need to see seniors running around in an AF uniform.

Look at a kids football team, basketball etc...  Now look at the coach(s)... is he in the same uniform as the kids?  Can you figure out who is the coach?  Who is the ultimate authority? Do those kids listen to and respect the coach even if he is not dressed like them?

These uniform threads are going to go on ad-nausium.  I would bet that even if my suggestion is adopted it will still happen....

Speaking as a former cadet, the seniors that couldn't take the time to get into the same uniform or wear a uniform at all, as we saw it then, didn't deserve our full respect. We had to put on the uniform and wear it correctly, so what made the other seniors special enough not to have to do the same. As an adult, I understand why, but if your asking why seniors should be in uniform when working with cadets, you can't have do as I say, not as I do.

My 2 cents.

[Pumbaa]

Farrier, that is why a lot of cadet programs are a joke. I am glad you were not one of my cadets.

You will disrespect someone because of what they choose not to wear???  You children know nothing.

The cadet program is just that  CADET.. The seniors are advisers.  Cadets are to run their own show....  If you choose to disrespect a senior member (Your adviser) you have a lot more issues, and that in itself tells me YOU do NOT deserve to wear the Air Force uniform.

Seems you didn't know the core values son.

As I stated earlier, so basket ball players disrespect their coach because he does not wear a uniform?  Think the boxer, or MMA fighter disrespects his coach because he does not 'lace' up?

Farrier, when I came back into CAP, I chose not to wear the AF blues, I prefer my goatee.  So go ahead and disrespect me.  I will take my skills and knowledge and share it with the cadet who knows the true meaning of respect.

[Pumbaa]

I will add this...

I work on a military base in Virginia, day in and day out. I am on call 24/7.

In my building there are 250+ people of which 200 are from all branches of the service.  Ranks in this building alone, are all the way up to a 4 star Marine General.  A number of times a month, I am in the Office of the Air Force One Star.  Guess what, this officer respects me for my abilities, my knowledge, my skills, and what I am able to do for him to make his job (and his peoples) easier and more efficient.  Oh yeah and what I am called in for is not even part of my job description, I have the knowledge and skills!

I don't wear a uniform.  Most of the time I will wear a polo shirt.  Funny how the General does not disrespect me... Amazing how many "Real Military" Captains, Majors and above, call me sir and mean it. 

Cadets/youth need to get their priorities straight.  You think you know it all.. But in reality you know nothing.

[flyerthom]

The absolute simplest solution is to make a gray and white knock off of the Air Force Style uniform. There is no need for different patterns, badges, etc. It's  not hard and it's far closer to uniform. Plus it then has the military styling for those who have that as an issue.

Simple, direct, decreased organizational cost and rapid deployment.

[Major Rob]

Speaking as a former cadet, the seniors that couldn't take the time to get into the same uniform or wear a uniform at all, as we saw it then, didn't deserve our full respect. We had to put on the uniform and wear it correctly, so what made the other seniors special enough not to have to do the same. As an adult, I understand why, but if your asking why seniors should be in uniform when working with cadets, you can't have do as I say, not as I do.

My 2 cents.

I am also a former cadet...

As I've said in another thread, if a person wears his uniform of choice correctly and with pride, then he *is* setting the best possible example for the cadets. Whether a senior member is wearing the blues or the greys, if he/she wears the uniform improperly, then the uniform itself doesn't matter, the senior is setting a bad example. If the cadets don't get that, then it is up to the senior members to explain it to them. Otherwise, it's a failing on our part, not theirs.

[Fuzzy]

Farrier, that is why a lot of cadet programs are a joke. I am glad you were not one of my cadets.

You will disrespect someone because of what they choose not to wear???  You children know nothing.

The cadet program is just that  CADET.. The seniors are advisers.  Cadets are to run their own show....  If you choose to disrespect a senior member (Your adviser) you have a lot more issues, and that in itself tells me YOU do NOT deserve to wear the Air Force uniform.

Seems you didn't know the core values son.

As I stated earlier, so basket ball players disrespect their coach because he does not wear a uniform?  Think the boxer, or MMA fighter disrespects his coach because he does not 'lace' up?

Farrier, when I came back into CAP, I chose not to wear the AF blues, I prefer my goatee.  So go ahead and disrespect me.  I will take my skills and knowledge and share it with the cadet who knows the true meaning of respect.

This is just silly. And rude, there's no need for that. The guy had a point.

Cadets can see a double standard like everyone else. Is it hard to believe that they can't understand all the reasons behind it? Besides we all know there are plenty of times where seniors are barely held up to any standard, as long as they come to contribute. Meanwhile Cadets are held up to (often at the same activity) their own standards very closely.

Is it that surprising that some cadets develop these feelings?

I will add this...

I work on a military base in Virginia, day in and day out. I am on call 24/7.

In my building there are 250+ people of which 200 are from all branches of the service.  Ranks in this building alone, are all the way up to a 4 star Marine General.  A number of times a month, I am in the Office of the Air Force One Star.  Guess what, this officer respects me for my abilities, my knowledge, my skills, and what I am able to do for him to make his job (and his peoples) easier and more efficient.  Oh yeah and what I am called in for is not even part of my job description, I have the knowledge and skills!

I don't wear a uniform.  Most of the time I will wear a polo shirt.  Funny how the General does not disrespect me... Amazing how many "Real Military" Captains, Majors and above, call me sir and mean it. 

Cadets/youth need to get their priorities straight.  You think you know it all.. But in reality you know nothing.

So because an Air Force General has the smarts to respect people outside of a uniform, cadets should be able to as well? They're going to need a little help with that. Help with explaining the situation and help with everyone being held to their own standards.

Sorry about the derail here... Not trying to get locked but I feel its on the way.

[davidsinn]

The absolute simplest solution is to make a gray and white knock off of the Air Force Style uniform. There is no need for different patterns, badges, etc. It's  not hard and it's far closer to uniform. Plus it then has the military styling for those who have that as an issue.

Simple, direct, decreased organizational cost and rapid deployment.

That's kind of the idea my group is proceeding with. The problem comes in finding a  gray jacket so for the moment we are exploring other options.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Or, for that matter, the AF doesn't have issues with the USCG (and Auxiliary) wearing some AF uniform items.

Do you actually know which items those are?  Because I do.  And the commonality is probably a lot less than you assume.

Mike:

To the best of my knowledge, without being an SK1 or QM1 (or, for that matter, knowing a lot about Navy/CG ratings):

Light blue AF shirt, long and short sleeve versions
AF blue jacket (waist length)
AF blue pullover sweater
AF blue trenchcoat

Many years ago I saw a guy in military uniform on The Price Is Right.  I may have still been in high school.  Having grown up inland, I didn't really know that the CG had even adopted a uniform different to the Navy (Bender Blues).  When I saw him, I thought he was in the Air Force.  He was in the short-sleeved blue shirt, CG blue pants and considerable ribbon rack.  It wasn't until a camera closeup that I noticed he was a CG Warrant Officer.

Now I live in the upper Great Lakes and see both Coasties and Auxiliarists now and then in various orders of dress (mostly ODU's).

My intent was not to say that the CG has taken their uniforms lock, stock and barrel from the AF...which is why I said "some uniform items."

[Major Rob]

This is just silly. And rude, there's no need for that. The guy had a point.

There is only a double standard if two groups of people are treated differently under one set of rules. If there is more than one set of rules and people adhere to the rules that apply to them, then there is no double standard. Cadets and seniors have different sets of rules they have to play by. So, there is no double standard.

If cadets can't see that in their immature, black-and-white world (that's not an insult, by any means -- just a truthful observation), then it's up to us to educate them. If we don't teach them, then the failing is ours, not theirs.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Be careful Capt Rob, the uniform nazi's are going to jump all over you for liking the grays.

Put on your asbestos underwear.

Nah.  Anyone is free to like the greys, just as anyone is free to not like them.  It's not worth insulting one another over.

[Pumbaa]

Nah.  Anyone is free to like the greys, just as anyone is free to not like them.  It's not worth insulting one another over.

You are correct about liking and not liking, however, read some of the posts in regards to the grays and you will see the we "Fat and Fuzzies" tend to take most of the hits.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Nah.  Anyone is free to like the greys, just as anyone is free to not like them.  It's not worth insulting one another over.

You are correct about liking and not liking, however, read some of the posts in regards to the grays and you will see the we "Fat and Fuzzies" tend to take most of the hits.

Which says more about the hitter than the hittee, I think.  It's all too easy to do that on an internet forum.

There are quite a few members of my unit who show up in greys and/or polos (including the unit CC occasionally).  I'm just glad to see them and work with them rather than pooh-pooh their uniform choices.

However, I do believe that there should be some sort of "middle-ground" choice between the straight AF-type uniform and the straight corporate-only uni, one that both F&F and non-F&F can claim as our own, and that has links to our heritage.  I personally don't see that in the greys.

The CSU was a step in that direction, but the motivation and mechanics behind it were not good, from what I know, and now it's gone.

$0.02 offered.

[Fubar]

Wearing the CAP baseball cap with this uniform is OK, but a flight cap would look a lot sharper.

As a likely candidate to appear on What Not To Wear, I'm not versed in what headgear is appropriate for various clothing styles, but I've never been a fan of a baseball cap being worn if the wearer's shirt has a collar on it. A ballcap and a polo shirt for example always looks out of place to me, probably because I see baseball caps and t-shirts as very informal. While a polo isn't exactly formal, they are common in the work place while t-shirts and baseball caps are not.

The gray/white combo isn't something I'd wear, but I agree a service hat or flight cap would look better. Anyone know why headgear wasn't authorized when the gray/white was introduced?