Tuck in your Polo

[Spike]

Question....

Does the Polo Shirt (short sleeve variety) need to be worn tucked into the trousers by men? 

Yes, I know it looks better, but one of my members tells me men no longer have to, and I want to get an answer before the weekly meeting.  If it is true, can someone direct me to the source??

Thanks!!

[IceNine]

There are three golf shirts approved for wear. A dark blue knit shirt with embroidered CAP seal on the right breast and embroidered name and
aeronautical rating or specialty badge on the left breast; a dark blue knit shirt
with embroidered seal on the right breast, without the name or rating on left
breast; and a dark blue knit shirt with the CAP seal screen printed in white
lettering on left breast. Shirt must be worn tucked in by men unless heat
conditions on the flight line require additional air circulation. Women may
wear the shirt out of slacks but shirt length must not fall below mid-hips.

[SarDragon]

What he said, cuz he types faster than I do.

Also, there is no additional supplementary text in any of the ICLs.

[Airrace]

Yes, it must be tucked according to CAP 39-1.

[Flying Pig]

Please......tuck in your polos!!!!!! Its still a uniform. And while were at it.......if your flight suit is the same one you wore as a 2Lt in 'Nam (no offense Kack ) or you also use it for yard work, get a new one!!!!!

[Eclipse]

Does the Polo Shirt (short sleeve variety) need to be worn tucked into the trousers by men? 

No.

Find something else to worry about.

[RiverAux]

No?  Really?  Despite a reg that clearly requires it in most circumstances? 

[Eclipse]

No?  Really?  Despite a reg that clearly requires it in most circumstances?

Yes.

[Gunner C]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

[Capt Rivera]

That's the polo shirt mentality...

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

Good job!

[Major Carrales]

It is a matter of professional appearance.  An un-tucked polo shirt does not say "US Air Force Auxiliary" as much as it says "I'm a middle school student who just won't conform to dress code."

It does not physically hurt to tuck your shirt in (although I bet there is one disingenuous fool out there that will try to make the point to the contrary, to which I will say in advance; if you are not physically fit enough to tuck in a shirt then you are not physically fit enough to fly an aircraft.)

I have long talked about the "sliding line," the more relaxed something is made it then follows that there will be some that will still want to "slide" the line down further down. 

Funny, I wonder what would happen if a reg allowed a speed-o and flip flops as a CAP Uniform.  Would some of you push for nakedness as a SAFETY ISSUE?

[Spike]

Now I am confused.  I have both yes and no answers as well as a hit against Middle School kids   

[RiverAux]

The answer is YES (except in those situations noted as exceptions in the regulation).  The "NO" that you received is an opinion on what the regulation SHOULD be, not an expression of what it IS. 

[jimmydeanno]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

I don't wear PT clothing on my cadet's PT night.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Please......tuck in your polos!!!!!! Its still a uniform. And while were at it.......if your flight suit is the same one you wore as a 2Lt in 'Nam (no offense Kack ) or you also use it for yard work, get a new one!!!!!

No offense taken.  I didn't wear a flight suit in Nam, since I was a Navy hospital corpsman then, not an aircrewman. 

Also, nothing that I wore in 1969-1970 fits me now!

[Rotorhead]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

+1 for this.

[IceNine]

Now I am confused.  I have both yes and no answers as well as a hit against Middle School kids   

Don't be the answer according to the magic 8 ball that is 39-1 is Yes

[afgeo4]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

[IceNine]

^  Everything you just said is COMPLETELY opinion.

What he did produced the desired outcome therefore it was successful.  There may have been other options but with the given information I read it as there was a liquid projectile distance contest, and the squad cc lost.

Establishing dominance and proving that you are the man in charge is a very real necessity and the amount of force necessary is dependent on the situation.  Which again is one of the issues with the volunteer mentality.

[Gunner C]

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

Yes they volunteer their time.  They also volunteer to follow the rules.  If a unit, en mass decides to disobey the rules and thereby challenging the chain of command, the commander has to act or be forever impotent.  BTW, the SQDN/CC agreed with me, he just couldn't get them to follow the uniform reg.  By being the bad guy, I allowed him to maintain his relationship with his squadron without him having to break bad on them.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

It wasn't very imaginary.  It worked.  My subordinates pushed, I demonstrated that I wouldn't tolerate an insubordinate attitude.  My ego, BTW, didn't need reinforcing.  I've commanded real units in real combat.  I did OK.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

No, it shows that it can be done if it needs to be.  You have "privileges" in quotes.  That's exactly what they are.  They didn't want to play by the rules, so I invoked my option as a commander.  If this would have been the RM, I could have taken rank, pay, and weekends.  Here, I can just affect what they like.  They wanted to fly, I wanted them to follow the rules.  Not a good lesson?  That unit, within 6 months, was responding to mission calls within 15 minutes with complete aircrews ready to crank within an hour after that.  That unit flew more missions than any squadron in the wing.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

When the problem is small, that's the time to squash it.  Small problems get larger.  At first, it's uniforms, then fudging on paperwork, then fudging on qualifications.  Small problems, unchecked, become larger.  They don't go away.  I made the point that professionalism was going to be expected, and nothing less would be tolerated.  In return they ended up getting a HUGE number of missions, training opportunities, and more than their share of notice by the wing and higher.

If I hadn't exerted command over that unit, they would have been just another unit with their shirt tails out wondering why CAP sucks so bad.

[Hawk200]

A commander that passes a gutcheck. Nice. Where's your group, Gunner? I want in.

Too many people say "I'm a volunteer!" or "We're only volunteers!". As if that's a legitimate reason to do whatever you want. People cease to be volunteers the day they do so.

I don't care if you're getting paid or not, you "volunteer" to be part of something. Show some conviction and do it. Or don't. Paid status has nothing to with it. If you can't, or won't, then leave.

Yes, I know, there are times you just can't do something. Can't leave work in the middle of the day for a mission? I get that. Stuck at home with children that you're taking care of? Not a problem. The good commanders understand that, too. But when it somes to showing up to a function that you regularly attend in an appropriate uniform, there's no excuse.

Glad to see that there's a commander out there that believes that command, even in a volunteer organization,  is something to take seriously.

[DogCollar]

I have disagreed with Gunner C a few times over issues, but on this issues I agree with him 100%.

In my "real life" job, besides being a chaplain I also am the director of volunteers for my hospital.  I had a volunteer that I had to counsel continually about her behavior.  She thought that because she was a volunteer she could pretty much do whatever she wanted.  I finally had to ask her for her badge and told her not to comeback.  She tried to complain to my supervisor, but I had already told her why I was doing this and what I had done to try to prevent it.  She supported my decision completely.

I guess what I am saying is that being a volunteer that doesn't follow rules and regulations is inviting consequences.

[alamrcn]

If you guys are done writing your names in the snow....   


Do the CAP polos have the little triangle notch details on the sides? This used to be a tell-tale sign of a female cut shirt, however in these days of unisex clothing many male polo shirts also have these small details as well.

In the clothing industry, a golf or polo shirt with these two details is worn untucked. If the shirt is "unremarkable" on the sides, it is to be tucked in regardless of being a male or female cut.

This clothing industry trend has nothing to do with what CAP members are supposed to do, and it probably wasn't even considered when creating the uniform. But it's a curious item to consider anyway.

[D2SK]

   I'm really thankful for CAPTALK providing a venue for informative threads such as this.  Now that we've determined if you should wear your polo tucked or untucked, perhaps we can have several pages of who gives a crap.

[Spike]

^ Hey it matters to some people.  Thanks for posting and not providing any informative insight. 

[lordmonar]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

Definiton of good leader:  One who accomplishes the mission.

Coolective punishment works.....It sucks to be one of the guys who was in regs and got screwed anyway but there is only so much you can do.

If a commander says "I ain't gonna do it!  So there!"  Getting his whole squadron pissed at him is one way to get him back into line.   If they don't want to play the game then take their toys away!

Brining a leader to task for getting the job done is as stupid as someone jepordising the organisation over a stupid shirt!

[Gunner C]

A commander that passes a gutcheck. Nice. Where's your group, Gunner? I want in.

Too many people say "I'm a volunteer!" or "We're only volunteers!". As if that's a legitimate reason to do whatever you want. People cease to be volunteers the day they do so.

I don't care if you're getting paid or not, you "volunteer" to be part of something. Show some conviction and do it. Or don't. Paid status has nothing to with it. If you can't, or won't, then leave.

Yes, I know, there are times you just can't do something. Can't leave work in the middle of the day for a mission? I get that. Stuck at home with children that you're taking care of? Not a problem. The good commanders understand that, too. But when it somes to showing up to a function that you regularly attend in an appropriate uniform, there's no excuse.

Glad to see that there's a commander out there that believes that command, even in a volunteer organization,  is something to take seriously.

Thanks, but I left command about 5 years ago and the group was deactivated a year later.  It was a great unit - I had a real love for every member and cadet.  They just got a bit raucous from time to time.  I haven't seen a better unit since then.  I'm proud to be a former member of that group.

[Gunner C]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

Definiton of good leader:  One who accomplishes the mission.

Coolective punishment works.....It sucks to be one of the guys who was in regs and got screwed anyway but there is only so much you can do.

If a commander says "I ain't gonna do it!  So there!"  Getting his whole squadron pissed at him is one way to get him back into line.   If they don't want to play the game then take their toys away!

Brining a leader to task for getting the job done is as stupid as someone jepordising the organisation over a stupid shirt!

Honestly, it wasn't collective punishment.  The whole unit was behind it.  I don't believe in punishing the innocent. 

[Cherokeepilot]

Folks........
We need to remember that CAP is not a uniform service.  The socalled uniforms are merely costumes which are relavent to the extent that Amn Red Cross workers wear vests at their events and disaster events.

There is nothing about this to get all hot and bothered. 
73s

[dogboy]

TShirt must be worn tucked in by men unless heat
conditions on the flight line require additional air circulation.

It's over 90 degrees in our Squadron HQ on Summer evenings. Why is the heat condition exception limited to the flight line?

[afgeo4]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

Definiton of good leader:  One who accomplishes the mission.

Coolective punishment works.....It sucks to be one of the guys who was in regs and got screwed anyway but there is only so much you can do.

If a commander says "I ain't gonna do it!  So there!"  Getting his whole squadron pissed at him is one way to get him back into line.   If they don't want to play the game then take their toys away!

Brining a leader to task for getting the job done is as stupid as someone jepordising the organisation over a stupid shirt!

Actually Capt. Harris, please check your cadets' leadership books because that's NOT the definition of the word "leader".

Not even close.

[afgeo4]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

Definiton of good leader:  One who accomplishes the mission.

Coolective punishment works.....It sucks to be one of the guys who was in regs and got screwed anyway but there is only so much you can do.

If a commander says "I ain't gonna do it!  So there!"  Getting his whole squadron pissed at him is one way to get him back into line.   If they don't want to play the game then take their toys away!

Brining a leader to task for getting the job done is as stupid as someone jepordising the organisation over a stupid shirt!

Honestly, it wasn't collective punishment.  The whole unit was behind it.  I don't believe in punishing the innocent.

Gunner, unit commanders exist to take responsibility for the actions of their subordinates and themselves. It's one of the reasons why we have the chain of command and span of control. In a healthy leadership structure, it is the commander who is responsible for compliance with regulations. It is also the commander who is held responsible. If the commander isn't doing the job right, he/she is to be replaced with someone who will.  That is the said unit commander should have been:
1. Counseled (properly, with an LOR if need be).
2. Relieved (and replaced with someone who understands the regs and will insist on them being followed).

With the commander as stupid as this one was, there must have been many other issues of disrespect for authority and the regulations. I don't believe that this was an isolated incident. I also don't believe that ALL members suddenly decided that they'll break the regs. I believe CAP isn't a democracy. There is no voting for this stuff.

Fire the CC. Replace him/her with one who is capable. PROBLEM SOLVED

Start "Showing them who's boss" and you'll lose the unit, the group and the mission (actually, sounds like that's exactly what happened in the end).

[Eclipse]

I'm of two minds on this, and as usual I suspect Gunner's intention and even action were spot-on.

It all depends on where the median of uniform wear and performance is.  Its been made quite clear to me by those on this board and others that while uniform wear is an indicator of attention to detail, there needs to be some command latitude in regards to the "hammer". (i.e. things like wearing Gore-Tex before it was approved, badges that aren't on the list, or the inability to use a ruler when setting up a service coat are overt "choices" made by a member, which is different from hammering an MP for rolling his sleeves on a hot flight line after his 4th sortie 1000 miles from home).

If a unit is otherwise performing to expectations and this is the only thing he can find to pick on, then there's a some room to call "avian poop!" on something which is meaningless in grand scheme.

However if the unit is under-performing in general, this is a good way to show that even the smallest detail is not too small for attention.

There is also the issue of picking your battles. 

I don't have time for the "we're all volunteers so therefore I don't have to bother with 'x' mentality..."   If I think its important, the members will either do it, or be held accountable. However few units I have ever encountered are so squared away at the macro level that whether polo shirts are tucked in or not deserves anything more than a side comment by the commander.

[Rotorhead]

Folks........
We need to remember that CAP is not a uniform service.  The socalled uniforms are merely costumes which are relavent to the extent that Amn Red Cross workers wear vests at their events and disaster events.

There is nothing about this to get all hot and bothered. 
73s

They are uniforms, not costumes, at least as far as the USAF is concerned.

I'll defer to the USAF, not you, on this issue.

Your post sounds like you're part of the "I'm just a volunteer, I don't need to follow rules" brigade.

[SilverEagle2]

^^ :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Hawk200]

Folks........
We need to remember that CAP is not a uniform service.  The socalled uniforms are merely costumes which are relavent to the extent that Amn Red Cross workers wear vests at their events and disaster events.

There is nothing about this to get all hot and bothered. 
73s

No, they are not costumes. At all. Rules, regulations, manuals, etc. exist for a reason. They aren't meant to give the appearance of "playing military".

With the ideas that it doesn't matter that a shirt be tucked in, what happens when someone shows up in blues without tucking a shirt in? What if someone doesn't feel like wearing tapes on their BDU's, or wearing a yellow shirt under it? What line exists where it's OK, and at what point is it wrong? I would think that everything stated should be followed. But I'm wondering how many feel that non-compliance is acceptable to a point.

[Eclipse]

With the ideas that it doesn't matter that a shirt be tucked in, what happens when someone shows up in blues without tucking a shirt in? What if someone doesn't feel like wearing tapes on their BDU's, or wearing a yellow shirt under it? What line exists where it's OK, and at what point is it wrong? I would think that everything stated should be followed. But I'm wondering how many feel that non-compliance is acceptable to a point.

There's a chasm of difference between not tucking in a golf shirt, which has at least one written exception, and not tucking in the shirt of a dress uniform.

As to the color of t-shirts, we've got activities all over the place, some attended by NHQ commanders and staff, that wear all sorts of different colors, so we already know where the line is there.

[Cherokeepilot]

Folks.........

They are not regulations until they are published in the Federal Register by the USC.  Since we are not UCMJ then we are under USC.  The socalled regs are nothing more than not for profit corporate by laws put together by corporate officers who are not elected to their posts.

For crying out loud, the shutdown of a squadron gets into the very worst conduct possible for a volunteer organization of any type.  This threat conduct indicates very poor leadership skills.  In another country situation, such officers usually had a grenade rolled under their cot.  I just hated having to be the one cleaning up the mess. 

Did anyone just try asking???

73s

[Rotorhead]

Folks.........

They are not regulations until they are published in the Federal Register by the USC.  Since we are not UCMJ then we are under USC.  The socalled regs are nothing more than not for profit corporate by laws put together by corporate officers who are not elected to their posts.

Wrong again.

Despite your self-chosen definition that only things in the CFR are regulations, these are, in fact regulations.

From Merriam-Webster: "Regulation: 2.  A principle, rule, or law designed to control or govern conduct."

Stop trying to bend CAP to be what you want it to be.

[heliodoc]

Yep

CAP does not have UCMJ.  Uniform wear should be corrected, but did i read here about a shutdown of a Sqdn?

Hammering in CAP.  This place is wildly out of control about uniform wear,m which in reality should be corrected.

CAP leadership= hammering...REAL SWELL 

Isn't there some REAL CAP training going on  rather than woooooorying about that fr9ickin polo shirt?

CAP brought that one and until you folks realize its here to stay and the hammering CAP does carries really no weight,,then keep on keepin on

Closing a squadron down DOES show POOR leadership skills.  It basically indicates NO people skills, NO problem solving skills, etc

Hey but I am a pilot and a CAP volunteer and I do know how to tuck my polo shirt in. 

ALLL these uniform threads indicate a LACK of real CAP proficiency or otherwise REAL training.  Worrying about a 40.00 Vanguard rag, really is impressive.  It is even more impressive when 30 to 60 year old with no RM training.....do not know how to wear a 40.00 rag  SHEEEEEEEEEESH

[Hawk200]

Hmmm, rationalization of non-compliance. No wonder our organization isn't taken seriously at times, and is going downhill. How long before the blatant lying, cheating, and stealing starts?

I'm especially surprised at how much gray area seems to be tolerated and even advocated. Maybe that color for our uniform items was the most appropriate.

[Rotorhead]

Hmmm, rationalization of non-compliance. No wonder our organization isn't taken seriously at times, and is going downhill. How long before the blatant lying, cheating, and stealing starts?

I'm especially surprised at how much gray area seems to be tolerated and even advocated. Maybe that color for our uniform items was the most appropriate.

Concur.

May take is, if you didn't want to join a military auxiliary that wears a military-style uniform (and has for decades), you shouldn't have joined CAP.

A flying club, perhaps, or the Boy Scouts, might be more appropriate if that's how you feel. (Although the BSA has uniforms as welll..)

[Cherokeepilot]

Yea' doggies!!!
Hammering........and we wonder why the turnover in membership.  Also, we wonder why the lack of respect for wing officers.  You almost can feel the love..........

Folks......
Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules.  Bullies and thugs don't do well in any work environment especially when having to deal with volunteers.  And, we wonder why other agencies seem to hold us at arms length. 

73s

[Rotorhead]

Yea' doggies!!!
Hammering........and we wonder why the turnover in membership.  Also, we wonder why the lack of respect for wing officers.  You almost can feel the love..........

Folks......
Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules.  Bullies and thugs don't do well in any work environment especially when having to deal with volunteers.  And, we wonder why other agencies seem to hold us at arms length. 

If, in fact, other agencies "hold us at arm's length," it is precisely because some people join CAP and then don't want to follow the regs...something other agencies don't tolerate within their staffs.

People need to accept the rules when they join and plan to adhere to them.

Otherwise, they should not join.

The End.

[SilverEagle2]

^^ Beat me by 11 seconds

And, we wonder why other agencies seem to hold us at arms length.

Because they see the members not following their own rules and stating "We are only volunteers!"

You would be amazed what CAP would be asked to do if they saw CAP abiding by all the rules in place, wearing uniforms correctly, and decreeing, "I am a volunteer that plays by the book!"

[Pumbaa]

I refuse to tuck in my polo!

[LtCol057]

Probably gonna get flamed for some of this, but I can handle it, I'm a big boy now. I wear the big boy pants.

Gunner C, I support you 100% on this matter.  I wish more commanders had the cojones to uphold the regs, rather than just the ones they agree with.  I don't agree with all the regs myself, but as a commander, I still have to uphold them. 

The "volunteer" mentality is what is killing the organization, IMHO.  I was a member of a volunteer EMS organization several years ago. Several members had the same "volunteer" mentality, doing as they wanted, not what was mandated by the state.  After awhile, the county and state stepped in, revoking certifications for noncompliance.  When I started, we had about 60 members.  I left the organization about 5 years later.  Now, they have approx 20 members, and struggling to stay afloat. 

Yes, I'm a volunteer, but that's only because I'm not paid.  I may be a volunteer, but I'm still a professional.  If it every gets to the point that I feel that I can do as I please because I'm a volunteer, I'll leave the organization. 

[NC Hokie]

Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules. 

Here's an idea....

People shouldn't join any organization that has rules and regulations they aren't willing to follow.

[Gunner C]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

Definiton of good leader:  One who accomplishes the mission.

Coolective punishment works.....It sucks to be one of the guys who was in regs and got screwed anyway but there is only so much you can do.

If a commander says "I ain't gonna do it!  So there!"  Getting his whole squadron pissed at him is one way to get him back into line.   If they don't want to play the game then take their toys away!

Brining a leader to task for getting the job done is as stupid as someone jepordising the organisation over a stupid shirt!

Honestly, it wasn't collective punishment.  The whole unit was behind it.  I don't believe in punishing the innocent.

Gunner, unit commanders exist to take responsibility for the actions of their subordinates and themselves. It's one of the reasons why we have the chain of command and span of control. In a healthy leadership structure, it is the commander who is responsible for compliance with regulations. It is also the commander who is held responsible. If the commander isn't doing the job right, he/she is to be replaced with someone who will.  That is the said unit commander should have been:
1. Counseled (properly, with an LOR if need be).
2. Relieved (and replaced with someone who understands the regs and will insist on them being followed).

With the commander as stupid as this one was, there must have been many other issues of disrespect for authority and the regulations. I don't believe that this was an isolated incident. I also don't believe that ALL members suddenly decided that they'll break the regs. I believe CAP isn't a democracy. There is no voting for this stuff.

Fire the CC. Replace him/her with one who is capable. PROBLEM SOLVED

Start "Showing them who's boss" and you'll lose the unit, the group and the mission (actually, sounds like that's exactly what happened in the end).

Let me fill in some of the holes in the narrative:

This was (probably still is) a unit that had some of the best aircrews in the wing.  They had high operational standards and were progressing well.  The commander had just taken command.  He'd been in the unit for several years.  He was a good man who ran his own business and had good leadership skills.

I made a command visit one night.  It was not too long after 9-11 and it wasn't certain what was going to happen to us as a force, whether we were going to be part of a fight in the homeland, etc.

The unit was pretty tight and had a solid group identity.  I was also a relatively new group commander - I'd been in command for about 6 months after being moved up from squadron command.

At the end of the meeting, I gave a short brief.  They were training, getting paperwork done, and generally taking care of business.  My intent was to take them to the next level, using their many talents and skills, and making them the "gold standard" in the wing for ES.  One of the things I was looking for was to raise our profile with the AF.  Uniforms were part of that.  I took the commander aside and asked him to get his folks to tuck in their shirts.  He told me that he'd already done that and they'd balked, saying it wasn't important.  A small "unit cohesion thing." 

We both thought that this was the members pushing to find the limits of the chain of command.  We felt that if we didn't exert the authority of command, we'd never move the squadron forward and our goals would never taken seriously.

That's when I told him I'd call him the next day with my plan.  When he heard it, he agreed.  Yes, it was a bit of theater, but there was a message "I'm going to get you guys more missions and training than they ever imagined, but if you're going to get it, you're going to play by the rules."  I raised the bar and they met it.  They recruited more members, kept them, and had more fun than any other unit in the wing.

BTW, the group was inactivated when the wing took the group structure from 8 groups to 3.  It was a matter of geography.

Bottom line:  if you lower the standards, your unit will meet them every time.  The only way to move forward is to raise standards.  They won't always meet them, but they'll be proud of the progress they've made and proud of being part of something special.

[afgeo4]

I have disagreed with Gunner C a few times over issues, but on this issues I agree with him 100%.

In my "real life" job, besides being a chaplain I also am the director of volunteers for my hospital.  I had a volunteer that I had to counsel continually about her behavior.  She thought that because she was a volunteer she could pretty much do whatever she wanted.  I finally had to ask her for her badge and told her not to comeback.  She tried to complain to my supervisor, but I had already told her why I was doing this and what I had done to try to prevent it.  She supported my decision completely.

I guess what I am saying is that being a volunteer that doesn't follow rules and regulations is inviting consequences.

Ah! You're exactly showing my point. The right thing to do isn't to just let it go. I'm all for professionalism and following regs. The exactly right thing to do is to counsel and if it doesn't work, fire them.

This isn't the real military and it isn't combat. Same rules DO NOT apply. Why? Well, for starters, these people aren't bound to service by law. Second, these people don't get proper training. Third, they aren't paid for their work. Finally, and I think most importantly, it would all serve us well to remember that WE don't pay them. We have no right to dictate. We have the right to ask volunteers to do certain things and we have the right to sever ties with them if they don't do those things, but we have no right to demand. Sure, we can all pretend we can "order" people to do things, but we can't. There's no enforcement behind it and that's for a reason. A really good reason.

[afgeo4]

Folks........
We need to remember that CAP is not a uniform service.  The socalled uniforms are merely costumes which are relavent to the extent that Amn Red Cross workers wear vests at their events and disaster events.

There is nothing about this to get all hot and bothered. 
73s

They are uniforms, not costumes, at least as far as the USAF is concerned.

I'll defer to the USAF, not you, on this issue.

Your post sounds like you're part of the "I'm just a volunteer, I don't need to follow rules" brigade.

Please defer to NHQ/CAP for wear of corporate uniforms.

No one here is arguing about how the BDU uniform should be worn. In fact, no one is arguing about how the polo should be worn. That's in the regs, so no argument. The question is, how do we resolve non-compliancy where it exists?

[afgeo4]

Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules. 

Here's an idea....

People shouldn't join any organization that has rules and regulations they aren't willing to follow.

Rules change. CAP rules change almost weekly.

[Capt Rivera]

Bottom line:  if you lower the standards, your unit will meet them every time.  The only way to move forward is to raise standards.  They won't always meet them, but they'll be proud of the progress they've made and proud of being part of something special.

:clap:

[Capt Rivera]

Rules change. CAP rules change almost weekly.

Whats your point? The rules in place are the ones that should be followed... until amended by whatever means...

[PHall]

Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules. 

Here's an idea....

People shouldn't join any organization that has rules and regulations they aren't willing to follow.

Rules change. CAP rules change almost weekly.

Basic stuff like tucking your shirt in hasn't changed in a long time, and they probably won't.

[Rotorhead]

Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules. 

Here's an idea....

People shouldn't join any organization that has rules and regulations they aren't willing to follow.

Rules change. CAP rules change almost weekly.

Hyperbole aside, we're not talking about an inability to keep up with reg changes, we're talking about people who just don't want to follow them.

[Johnny Yuma]

I'm almost always tucked in, except for those days when I'm carrying the Sig 228 or my 1911A1 in an Inside the waistband holster with and extra magazine for reloads...

Just Kidding (or am I) :angel: :angel: :angel:

[wuzafuzz]

I'm almost always tucked in, except for those days when I'm carrying the Sig 228 or my 1911A1 in an Inside the waistband holster with and extra magazine for reloads...

Just Kidding (or am I) :angel: :angel: :angel:

ROFLMAO!!   

I agree completely a uniform should be worn properly or not worn at all.  That's not a military "wannabe" mentality, thats just the price of admission for a professional appearance.  Police officers, firefighters, paramedics, and even security guards can do it.  Even CERT organizations can do it. Why can't we? 

[Major Carrales]

I agree completely a uniform should be worn properly or not worn at all.  That's not a military "wannabe" mentality, thats just the price of admission for a professional appearance.  Police officers, firefighters, paramedics, and even security guards can do it.  Even CERT organizations can do it. Why can't we?

Outstanding post...this is the crux of the true matter, a professional appearance.  An un-tucked shirt does not give a professional appearance...it smacks of "casual wear" one might wear to the mall or a bar-be-cue, no offense against that look, but when you are on a CAP mission, or any endeavor that is "official," tucked in signifies the idea that you have "a purpose" and are "on duty" that is serious and, as said before, is official.

[a2capt]

Ahem...

At least.. this guy has it tucked in. ;-)

http://peopleofwalmart.com/?p=2191

[DC]

Ahem...

At least.. this guy has it tucked in. ;-)

http://peopleofwalmart.com/?p=2191

There are no words...

[PHall]

Ahem...

At least.. this guy has it tucked in. ;-)

http://peopleofwalmart.com/?p=2191

There are no words...

I'll give him points for not showing his "Plumber's Cleavage".

[wingnut55]

Oh my G&% , you guys  un-tucked in shirt  mass hysteria guys are being absolutely childish. If the Regulation says heat is the only reason to untuck the shirt, but it only applies on the flight line?? Maybe national needs to change that, they seem to spend 50% of the National Board meetings talking about Uniform Clothing and who is going to be a General.

Shutting down an entire squadron is abuse of authority, This entire organization is 40% morbidly obese members, who look like walking bowling balls when they tuck in their shirts. When the heat is 110 degrees give them a break National. How about un-tuck at 90 Degrees.

I have never seen a Group Commander come to a squadron meeting and lead by example, instill esprit de corp. Heck most squadron commanders I know did not want the job and absolutely want out.

You wonder why 2,000 hour pilots say 'I don't need this Crap"? Their answer: Because some George S. Patton wanabes are in CAP, the rules are often vague or ignored all the way up the chain (Until something goes wrong).

If we want to be more military than we need to redo the Senior member training, have an Officers academy that means something. Teach them military courtesy and customs. Have a meaningful professional development academy.

Most new members come into CAP and are gently told that we are Kind of military like in nature, but not really.

As a former cadet from the 70s I have seen CAP go through constant change, but the Cadet Corp has maintained proper Uniform mentality all along. Maybe we should get ride of the Golf shirt and go to Blue BDUs for every one. They make them in Nomex too so we can get rid of the flight suit.

Sorry I am venting.

As Group commander I would have just shot them all and billed the Family for the Bullet comrade!!

  :clap:

[John Bryan]

Wow.....4 pages about tucking in the golf shirt. An interesting read.

But the larger issue is, are we going to follow the CAP Core Values (Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence, and Respect). If yes then we need to have integrity. When we sign or speak a promise we MUST keep it.

CAPF 12 (senior application) says:

"I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of the Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by CAP Core Values, Ethics Policies, Constitution & Bylaws, Regulations and all applicable Federal, State, and Local Laws."

When I sign off that I will agree to be guided by the CAP's regulations then I must follow them, no matter how dumb they might seem. If I can't keep my word on little things then it won't be long before I compromise on larger and larger issues.

[Hawk200]

Wow.....4 pages about tucking in the golf shirt. An interesting read.

But the larger issue is, are we going to follow the CAP Core Values (Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence, and Respect). If yes then we need to have integrity. When we sign or speak a promise we MUST keep it.

CAPF 12 (senior application) says:

"I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of the Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by CAP Core Values, Ethics Policies, Constitution & Bylaws, Regulations and all applicable Federal, State, and Local Laws."

When I sign off that I will agree to be guided by the CAP's regulations then I must follow them, no matter how dumb they might seem. If I can't keep my word on little things then it won't be long before I compromise on larger and larger issues.

:clap:

[wingnut55]

Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence, and Respect

Are those National HQ values, Wing Values, Group and Squadron or only apply to the individual members. We have been struggling as an organization to improve our horrible reputation of not meeting these core values. In many wings the members at the top are not the cream of the crop, but rather classic examples of the "Peter Principle".

Having a four page debate over Tucked in Golf Shirts is just an example of how paralyzed we are as an organization. Saying a member ( experienced Pilot) who refuses to tuck should be kicked out because he Lacks Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence  and Respect !!

now that is pathetic and if the general Public became aware of it it would severely damage our already damaged reputation in the Emergency services world.

But hey just because I have flown over 400 hours for CAP in the last 3 years? and as Sgt Schultz would say " I KNOW NOTHING".  I would say that CAP is somewhere between F troop, Hogan Heroes, and Team America world Police.

Yet I have Hope

[Pumbaa]

Having a four page debate over Tucked in Golf Shirts is just an example of how paralyzed we are as an organization.

Thank you!

Thus my remarks in the "SOCK" thread..

I PO'd someone when I said I would wear my shirt untucked, Any color sock with my BDU's and then wear my flight suit with a goatee.

They totally missed the point.

This organization has become a joke, it is not the CAP I remember from the 70's.  I am in the process of moving to Virginia since I am now at the U.S. Joint Forces Command.  At this point I am thinking of not joining a local squadron.  I might just pay my dues and be a ghost.. Then again I might just decide to drop.

These forums ARE a reflection of CAP, it is one of the more active and vocal outlets for CAP members.  HQ has been relatively unresponsive to the needs and requests of their volunteers.  Thus this has become the defacto outlet.

When a multi-million dollar organization cannot get it's act together to even update the 39-1 (It's  been 4.5 years) then there is a MAJOR problem.

Regulations are important?  Then update the Friggen regs instead of a boatload of disjointed interim change letters.

As a corporation, I would give it failing marks on lack of delivery to their customers (Volunteers).  And yes, WE are the customers of the corporation.  On the AF side, CAP is failing it's customer as well.. The A.F.!!!

[John Bryan]

Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence, and Respect

Are those National HQ values, Wing Values, Group and Squadron or only apply to the individual members. We have been struggling as an organization to improve our horrible reputation of not meeting these core values. In many wings the members at the top are not the cream of the crop, but rather classic examples of the "Peter Principle".

Having a four page debate over Tucked in Golf Shirts is just an example of how paralyzed we are as an organization. Saying a member ( experienced Pilot) who refuses to tuck should be kicked out because he Lacks Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence  and Respect !!

now that is pathetic and if the general Public became aware of it it would severely damage our already damaged reputation in the Emergency services world.

But hey just because I have flown over 400 hours for CAP in the last 3 years? and as Sgt Schultz would say " I KNOW NOTHING".  I would say that CAP is somewhere between F troop, Hogan Heroes, and Team America world Police.

Yet I have Hope

Life is unfair. The CAP, as all organizations is not perfect. We have good leaders and bad leaders. The fact that others choose not to follow the core values is not any reason for me to give up. Its not a reason for me to break my promises.

"Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
Mark Twain

[Gunner C]

Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence, and Respect

Are those National HQ values, Wing Values, Group and Squadron or only apply to the individual members. We have been struggling as an organization to improve our horrible reputation of not meeting these core values. In many wings the members at the top are not the cream of the crop, but rather classic examples of the "Peter Principle".

Having a four page debate over Tucked in Golf Shirts is just an example of how paralyzed we are as an organization. Saying a member ( experienced Pilot) who refuses to tuck should be kicked out because he Lacks Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence  and Respect !!

now that is pathetic and if the general Public became aware of it it would severely damage our already damaged reputation in the Emergency services world.

But hey just because I have flown over 400 hours for CAP in the last 3 years? and as Sgt Schultz would say " I KNOW NOTHING".  I would say that CAP is somewhere between F troop, Hogan Heroes, and Team America world Police.

Yet I have Hope

Maybe you're right - if a pilot refuses to go along with the standards, then we'll just have to kneel down, kiss his butt, and say "Please mister pilot, sir!  Don't leave!  We can't get along without you and your bad attitude."  Or maybe we should do this:  have a graduated standard by pilot-in-command hours:

• Under 100 hours - you'd better have your uniform on, spit shine the bottom of your shoes
• 100 to 500 hours - have a uniform for every occasion; if that's too much, then you're outta here
• 500 to 1000 hours - you can wear whatever uniform you want; mess dress to PT gear is OK
• 1000 to 2000 hours - wanna fly in shower shoes?  no problem!  we need you!  you're irreplaceable!
• 2000 to 5000 hours - what do you want me to wear?  I'm not gonna tell you anything!  You are a sky-god!
• 5000 to 10,000 hours - don't even care if you're too heavy to be in weight and balance.  I'll buy your gas, just don't go away

[heliodoc]

Yup

Socks and untucked polo shirts

A sure way to spark the Core Values.  Its great if the "leadership" can adhere to it as well as the general membership.

Core Values are a great thing as long as one remembers to not use it so frequently to become CAP buzzword

I would imagine that this website sure impresses the USAF folk out there.   

More reason for MA Blue to say to CAP....you are a 501 (c)3 ..Go "Git" your own uniform....... could happen

How would that impress those CAP folk that want to wear the AF uniform, huh??

[Hawk200]

OK, heliodoc, what's your beef with CAP? Most of your posts are pretty negative. Why? You seem to advocate ignoring rules. Care to share your reasons?

[heliodoc]

Don't even start, Hawk

I for onedo not know you and you do not know me.

For 22 yrs I wore the uniform of this nation correctly and wear the CAP uni correctly

Negative...$%^^& right!  This organization needs a rework and if you can not see it ...too bad

Sock wear has got nothing to do with core values.  If CAPers are going this route..... they need something more constructive to do

Positive enough for ya?  Thanks for your time and service Hawk.

Hopefully this thread gets LOCKED...folks  defending "Core Values" and sock wear need some more education,

So if you think I advocate ignoring rules, you are completely wrong.  Most of the CAPers here are hung up on one thing or another...and it is generally around Bling and uniforms, like that is the only thread holding CAP together...

Apparently it is and for the folks who never wore a RM uniform,,,,this is one lame website that just continues to amaze me  and I got friends on AD that view this group as pretty petty and childish

Ignore the rules?  NOPE.  Just reading the freaking out that goes on here

[Nick]

22 rolling eyes smilies?  Really guy?  I think your message hath been received.  Focus on big picture, accomplish mission, ignore the small details, CAP is jacked up.  Roger.

[Spike]

To bring it to conclusion (which it needs), I politely told my member who has been refusing to tuck in the polo that he must tuck it in.  He stood there for a moment, and complied.

I needed no intimidation tactics, harsh words or punishments.  I did not shut down the Squadron, nor did I punish others for this guys fail. 

Thanks everyone for enlightening me, it was enjoyable. 

Now lets go on over to the sock thread and bash red sock wearing weirdos.   :clap:

[Hawk200]

I for onedo not know you and you do not know me.

True, but I know negativity when I see it. So does everyone else.

For 22 yrs I wore the uniform of this nation correctly and wear the CAP uni correctly

And for almost 21 I've done the same. You want to try to tell me that your opinion is superior to mine because of your plus one?

This organization needs a rework and if you can not see it ...too bad

I know it needs a rework. We need to start by canning all the fools that rationalize their lack of integrity by diminishing any rule they choose to ignore. Then we can move on to the ones that think that membership is their right, instead of a duty.

We could really be something if our membership in general would decide to work as a team with a mission, instead of a cheap flying club.

Sock wear has got nothing to do with core values.  If CAPers are going this route..... they need something more constructive to do

And as mentioned, sock wear isn't the issue. Following our own rules is. The outsiders see this. They know we're jacked up. What are we going to do about it collectively? We can start by training our new members. Teach them that this is an organization with a mission, and train them to be part of a team.

Positive enough for ya? 

Positive? Not really. But at least it's honest. We got problems. So what are you going to do about it? Keep sniping at those "meaningless" priorities, or make some suggestions for change?

Hopefully this thread gets LOCKED...folks  defending "Core Values" and sock wear need some more education,

Not if they're defending core values. The sock wear is simply a manner of following rules. We all know that discounting minor rules, reagardless of what they are, is where the problems begin. OK, so maybe someone can't see socks. Does the person wearing them have the integrity to do the right thing anyway?

There are numerous cases where the wrong thing keeps getting tolerated. Today, it's socks. Tomorrow, it's the wrong T-shirt. Next week, it's brown hiking boots. Next month, it's a leather belt with blues. In six months, it's a safety practice disregarded. Next year, it's a potentially embarrassing procedure ignored. The year after that, someone gets injured because the wrong thing was done.

It all started because the little rule got diminished. I'm assuming you've got, or had, kids. Did you keep letting them get away with the little things? CAP is the same way. Demand the compliance and accountability now.

So if you think I advocate ignoring rules, you are completely wrong.  Most of the CAPers here are hung up on one thing or another...and it is generally around Bling and uniforms, like that is the only thread holding CAP together...

The uniform is the obvious issue. You know how it was AD, you looked like crap, and people automatically assumed the worst opinion of you. Your first impression was the one you had working for, or against, you.

Read back on this board aways. Find the story on the Air Force evaluator that was asked why CAP can't wear a virtually identical uniform to the Air Force. Read about that evaluator pulling out a photo of an excessively overweight senior that was wearing pointy toed cowboy boots and a bolo tie, and who knows what else. Then tell me that there's "No way that ever happened!". Tell me what happened the next time a mission came up. Think we got it?

Apparently it is and for the folks who never wore a RM uniform,,,,this is one lame website that just continues to amaze me  and I got friends on AD that view this group as pretty petty and childish

I think there's plenty of stupidity here. Starting with the lack of integrity, the members that don't realize that they're part of something greater, the ones only here to fly, and the ones that ignore history and are doomed to repeat it. What are we going to do about? Because it's not my job, or yours, it's ours.

[Strick]

After reading this post............  #@#$%^**&^%^%$&**((  Just tuck in the %#$^%& polo shirt.