Scanner as an Interim position

[Short Field]

That is just a joy ride, not a search mission.  I bet they both log the flight time in their log books as PIC.

[JB_407]

Cant comment on how they long time but they are real search missions.

[Al Sayre]

Sometimes, you have to work with what you have.  MS is an important position, especially in a visual search or Photo mission.  Hunting for an ELT electronically, not so much.  I have launched several ELT missions with 2 pilots because that's who was available.  Really crappy weather, at night, overwater, 2 pilots makes for a safer flight (in theory) and is sometimes required by the regulations.

[NC Hokie]

Are MPs flying as scanners and observers held to the same crew rest standards as the actual PIC?

Crew rest standards apply to the whole air crew.

Well then, that seems to be a perfect reason for NHQ to take the lead and forbid the use of MPs in other aircrew roles if there are qualified non-pilots available to fill those slots.  If MPs are a finite resource (and in many wings they are), it makes no sense to let them burn their precious crew time doing anything other than their most valuable job.

[Eclipse]

^ They are going to burn their duty day whether they are sitting in the ICP or flying.  Its starts from when you leave the house in the AM, not wheels up.

[tdepp]

I don't understand the issue now.

I think I am starting to. I think I am beginning to understand that there exists an institutionalized indifference to the job of mission scanner. Think about it. This is the one aircrew position for which we may not even activate an air branch but to utilize it; and yet the training and recognition we see for this position is nowhere near proportional to its importance.

The best I can figure is that the job of mission scanner just isn't as "cool" as mission pilot or mission observer/navigator/commander. And thus, nobody really respects it or expects much of it. I think subtle things like incorporating aircrew wings for these positions would go a long way to change that attitudes, but it alone won't do the job.

(previous 3 replies slipped in as I hit the "post" button)

As a new MS and non-pilot but also having flown on three critical missions in the last six weeks, I can tell you that I have been treated as nothing other than a fellow "professional" by the folks in the front seats with the wings and the FAA licenses.  And I think our other non-pilot MSs in at least this half of my state would say they've had the same experience. 

When I'm the MS on a photo mission, we're there to get photos.  The front seat people want to put me in the best position possible, as safely as possible, to get the mission critical photos.  I also log wheels up/wheels down and basically only talk when spoken to or I have something I think is important to say.  I'm trying to scan and absorb as much as I can.

We are a team and a crew in the air, not a collection of individuals.  Everyone has an important and defined role.  I have enormous respect for the MPs and MOs and all that they have to do to complete a safe and successful mission.  And they seem to respect me and my other non-pilot MSs for what we do.   

I believe the SDWG, NDWG, and MNWG flew nearly two weeks straight of flooding photo missions in March.  Sometimes we had two MPs in the plane, but it was clear--one MP, one MO.  No egos.  Just the mission.  And when you have a small wing like we do in the Dakotas, we need all hands on deck (within the safety and crew hour guidelines, of course).  That people with jobs and school and families would cheerfully volunteer for so many days of the mission is a testament to their dedication and our great CAP aviation tradition.

I didn't sign up to be an MS so I could get wings.  I signed up because I had good photo skills, I love to fly, I wanted to learn more about aviation, and it was/is a critical need to our Wing's missions.  I'm also training to be an MO, which I realize will be a lengthy process because of all I have to learn as a non-pilot.  But being an MS, in my opinion, is an interesting, honorable, important, and useful duty.

[Short Field]

Cant comment on how they long time but they are real search missions.

I assume you mean log time.  If they are a search mission looking for something on the ground, then who is searching out the left window - the MP? 
I have reviewed debriefing reports from CAP missions that ONLY had one person on board - the MP.  That mission did a search plus took photos. 

[davidsinn]

Cant comment on how they long time but they are real search missions.

I assume you mean log time.  If they are a search mission looking for something on the ground, then who is searching out the left window - the MP? 
I have reviewed debriefing reports from CAP missions that ONLY had one person on board - the MP.  That mission did a search plus took photos.

How did he get a release? At least three people made grade A stupid decisions there.

[Short Field]

Here is a direct quote from a Wing Operations Officer after seeing that a crew didn't fly the mission as briefed:  "What do you expect me to do - he is one of our best pilots!"

[JB_407]

Yes I did mean to type log instead of long. I guess I shouldn't post at 1:45 am.

At any rate yes the MP would have to observe out the left window.

[davidsinn]

Yes I did mean to type log instead of long. I guess I shouldn't post at 1:45 am.

At any rate yes the MP would have to observe out the left window.

I thought MPs were prohibited from looking at the ground on a search?

[SJFedor]

Yes I did mean to type log instead of long. I guess I shouldn't post at 1:45 am.

At any rate yes the MP would have to observe out the left window.

I thought MPs were prohibited from looking at the ground on a search?

Not prohibited from looking at the ground, as many of the things we do require ground reference....but engaging in visually searching, yeah, not a good idea.

[davidsinn]

Yes I did mean to type log instead of long. I guess I shouldn't post at 1:45 am.

At any rate yes the MP would have to observe out the left window.

I thought MPs were prohibited from looking at the ground on a search?

Not prohibited from looking at the ground, as many of the things we do require ground reference....but engaging in visually searching, yeah, not a good idea.

That's what I meant. Obviously you can't do a pylon turn on a photo target without looking at 9:00 low. I just remember hearing or reading that MPs are not to engage in a visual search.

[Short Field]

The really good pilots don't have to follow the rules.

[a2capt]

The Observer's job .. is to observe. Everything.
The MP, thats the bus driver.

The scanner, look for the objective of the mission.

... now reality?

Everyone is looking out the window.

[JB_407]

Yes I did mean to type log instead of long. I guess I shouldn't post at 1:45 am.

At any rate yes the MP would have to observe out the left window.

With proper technique its not necessary to look out both sides of the aircraft anyway. Might be more efficient way to cover ground but what about for instance when flying a tandem aircraft? 

[RiverAux]

"Might" be more efficient to have people looking out windows on both sides of the plane?  I think that is about twice as efficient.... Do we have to send planes up with only 2 people every now and again?  Sure, but that is the last resort (sending up only an MP is a non-starter). 

[SarDragon]

Yes I did mean to type log instead of long. I guess I shouldn't post at 1:45 am.

At any rate yes the MP would have to observe out the left window.

With proper technique its not necessary to look out both sides of the aircraft anyway. Might be more efficient way to cover ground but what about for instance when flying a tandem aircraft?

How many tandem a/c have you seen participate in a CAP search mission recently?

[JB_407]

Two if you only count CAP operated aircraft. Quite a few more if you count all aircraft involved in a search along with CAP. However that really isn't the point. I am only suggesting that one can adjust techniques  to fit circumstances.

[Short Field]

What tandem aircraft is CAP operating?  Granted my info is a bit old but last I saw was 16xGA-8, 22xC206, 285xC182, and 195xC172  None are tandem.  Are you talking Corporate or something a squadron acquired?

With proper technique its not necessary to look out both sides of the aircraft anyway.

What proper technique are you talking about?  Are you talking about an expanding square where you put the MS & MO on the same side of the airplane to look out the right side?  That is possible but that is the only search pattern it would work on.