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Civil Ground Team Patrol

Started by flyguy06, June 04, 2006, 09:43:13 PM

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flyguy06

I have been viewing this message board as well as other CAP boards for months and I just want to know one thing.
Whats up with the ES emphasis on everything. The organization is called Civil Air Patrol, not Civil Ground team Patrol.

Everyone in CAP is not interested in Ground team or ES. We joined because it is supposed to be an aviation centered organiztion.

Now with that, let me say that I am a former GT leader and Msn Observer and I enjoyed that, but I think after reading the posts on here most people seem to be very ES focused even to the point of trying to make the cadet program into a sort of ES organiztion. These youths run round with their knives and field gear like little wanna be Rangers or something. I dont get it Why isnt their more empahsis on flight training or drill teams or develping their leadership abilities?

Dont get me wrong, I support ES and Ground Teams 100% but I also realize there are two equally as important missions that CAP has to accomplish. In my Squadron, we dont do ES because I am the only ES qualified person and the only one that has an interest. We also donthave the resources, we do however have many piots in our squadrin and we tend to focus on aviation.

Just curious.

Hammer

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 04, 2006, 09:43:13 PM
I have been viewing this message board as well as other CAP boards for months and I just want to know one thing.
Whats up with the ES emphasis on everything. The organization is called Civil Air Patrol, not Civil Ground team Patrol.

Thank you, I agree 100 % !!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 04, 2006, 09:43:13 PM

Everyone in CAP is not interested in Ground team or ES. We joined because it is supposed to be an aviation centered organiztion.

True.  I myself joined two years ago to fly, and I haven't touched a CAP airplane, or even an airplane at a CAP event during that time.

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 04, 2006, 09:43:13 PM

Now with that, let me say that I am a former GT leader and Msn Observer and I enjoyed that, but I think after reading the posts on here most people seem to be very ES focused even to the point of trying to make the cadet program into a sort of ES organiztion. These youths run round with their knives and field gear like little wanna be Rangers or something. I dont get it Why isnt their more empahsis on flight training or drill teams or develping their leadership abilities?

If your Squadron  is like mine, your ex-Sq/CC had his FAA Pilot Quals pulled, and can no longer fly.  So instead he forces everyone to do GT stuff.  Which also happeses to be the reason that I am not renewing my membership in August.

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 04, 2006, 09:43:13 PM
Dont get me wrong, I support ES and Ground Teams 100% but I also realize there are two equally as important missions that CAP has to accomplish. In my Squadron, we dont do ES because I am the only ES qualified person and the only one that has an interest. We also donthave the resources, we do however have many piots in our squadrin and we tend to focus on aviation.

Lucky you if your Squadron focuses on aviation.

shorning

#2
Quote from: flyguy06 on June 04, 2006, 09:43:13 PM
Just curious.

Different squadrons have different foci.  People are interested in different things.  It happens that many on CAP Talk are interested in ES.  I take that to mean that those that are primarily interested in the cadet program or aerospace education (and not ES) are either in a minority here, or don't visit the forum.

Want less focus on ES?  Get more people involved that don't work in ES.  All of us can be "recruiters" for CAP Talk! ;D

Becks

EDIT: Shorning said it better than I could.  :)

BBATW

Chris Jacobs

National is always trying to get more people in civil air patrol.  If ground team is what gets them in then thats what gets them in.  Now in our squadron we don't let the cadets just do ES.  they have to promote on a regular basis, and show up to meetings.  they can't be just involved in one program.  but i don't see any thing wrong with someone persuing an intrest.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Matt

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 04, 2006, 09:43:13 PM
[...]We joined because it is supposed to be an aviation centered organiztion.[...]

I'm going to take a different stand on that and will reaffirm on Shorning's point.  We're all here for different reasons, be it AE, CP, or ES.

I personally joined for the CP and it quickly re-vamped to ES.  I enjoy AE, don't get me wrong, but the reason I joined was not because it's an aviation-centered organization.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

mikeylikey

Quote from: Matt on June 05, 2006, 06:04:47 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on June 04, 2006, 09:43:13 PM
[...]We joined because it is supposed to be an aviation centered organization.[...]

I'm going to take a different stand on that and will reaffirm on Shoring's point.  We're all here for different reasons, be it AE, CP, or ES.

I personally joined for the CP and it quickly re-vamped to ES.  I enjoy AE, don't get me wrong, but the reason I joined was not because it's an aviation-centered organization.

I honestly don't know what to believe about the organization anymore.  I can understand that NHQ uses ES as a tool to get more money from the AF and the FED, but should it be that way?  I like the flying, I like the ES stuff, but should one be promoted more than the other.  Only time will tell, and there may be a future were the name is changed to "Civil Ground team Patrol".  We surely are not a Civil Air Patrol anylonger anyway!  When was the last time we "patrolled the skies" in search of an enemy?
What's up monkeys?

Matt

September 2001.

We were the only private planes allowed to be airborne.

As for using it as a recruiting tool.  I'm not partial.  Realistically, the majority of what we do is prepare for war and pray for peace.  We ready ourselves for missions to simply complete a ramp-check and call Langley.

There are times in which CAP has an invaluable ability for ES, SAR, DR, and Communications; but not many know of it or them, especially on the outside.

IMHO, we should be focusing on the MSI program.  Start young, and have them grow into the program.  What better way than to ultimately have a CAP CLASS PERIOD!!!

However, in all reality, we should focus 75/25 on Retention/Recruiting.  A retained and happy member will spread the word and bring more in to do the same.  The questions we need to ask is: What can be done to better the programs?  Who can better the programs?  How do we get them in?
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

arajca

Quote from: mikeylikey on June 05, 2006, 08:02:54 PM
I honestly don't know what to believe about the organization anymore.  I can understand that NHQ uses ES as a tool to get more money from the AF and the FED, but should it be that way?  I like the flying, I like the ES stuff, but should one be promoted more than the other.  Only time will tell, and there may be a future were the name is changed to "Civil Ground team Patrol".  We surely are not a Civil Air Patrol anylonger anyway!  When was the last time we "patrolled the skies" in search of an enemy?
When have we patrolled the ground in search of an enemy?


flyguy06

If you read the cadets responses abocve, thats my point. members think CAP is some military or homeand defense organization. Thereis a difference beween homeland defense and homeland security.
What "enemy" are we looking for? CAP is not in the business of looking for an "enemy" members especially cadets are getting the wrong impression of what CAP is all about.

We are an organization to develop youth and teach them leadership in an aerospace environment. We are not a pusedo militaryor HMS force looking to combat Terrorism. Yes, we support the Air Force in many of its CONUS missions which includes Homeland Security, but that is a very small part of what we do.

Our meat and potatoes is developing youth.

Youare right. Everyone does join CAP for a different reason and thats ok. But I guess from reading this board I see a heavy emphasis on ES. Again, I support ES but I also support mentoring to young people

shorning

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 05, 2006, 08:41:56 PM
But I guess from reading this board I see a heavy emphasis on ES. Again, I support ES but I also support mentoring to young people

Again: 

Quote from: shorning on June 05, 2006, 12:32:11 AM
Different squadrons have different foci.  People are interested in different things.  It happens that many on CAP Talk are interested in ES.  I take that to mean that those that are primarily interested in the cadet program or aerospace education (and not ES) are either in a minority here, or don't visit the forum.

Want less focus on ES?  Get more people involved that don't work in ES.  All of us can be "recruiters" for CAP Talk! ;D

Just because you don't see "CP only" people posting here doesn't mean they aren't out there.  Maybe they aren't members of this forum.  Maybe they don't like to get on the internet at all.

That being said, I think "most" people do join CAP for the ES aspect.  Sure, not all, but if you could do a survey, I bet "to develop youth and teach them leadership in an aerospace environment" wouldn't be on most people's list.

But there is no need to get worked up about the ES discussion.  You're welcome to create topics that interest you.  Like this one.  I'm sure many here would entertain your posts.

Matt

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 05, 2006, 08:41:56 PM
If you read the cadets responses abocve, thats my point. members think CAP is some military or homeand defense organization. Thereis a difference beween homeland defense and homeland security.

I respectfully disagree.  Where have we ever said Homeland Defense or Military Organization?  Yes, we have HLS missions, but we're still under AETC, and will be so until the AF sells us, or we leave.  That's about as military as it gets.

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 05, 2006, 08:41:56 PM
What "enemy" are we looking for? CAP is not in the business of looking for an "enemy" members especially cadets are getting the wrong impression of what CAP is all about.

Realistically; none.  However, we were flying Recon flights after 9/11 per the AF.  After the instation of HLS, we began to fly recon for them.  However, there is no real ememy we're looking for.

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 05, 2006, 08:41:56 PM
We are an organization to develop youth and teach them leadership in an aerospace environment.

;) I concur - partially.  Only partially because the statement above only names 2/3 of our missions.

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 05, 2006, 08:41:56 PM
We are not a pusedo militaryor HMS force looking to combat Terrorism. Yes, we support the Air Force in many of its CONUS missions which includes Homeland Security, but that is a very small part of what we do.

Never the less, we still do it.  Small - yep, but it's there.  Just because you only have one chicken pock, doesn't mean you don't have the chicken pox.


Quote from: flyguy06 on June 05, 2006, 08:41:56 PM
Our meat and potatoes is developing youth.

At least it should be.  However, what about professional development?  Should we not also teach the SM's?  Samuel Clemen's (Mark Twain) once said: "I will never let my schooling interfere with my education."

Quote from: flyguy06 on June 05, 2006, 08:41:56 PM
Youare right. Everyone does join CAP for a different reason and thats ok. But I guess from reading this board I see a heavy emphasis on ES. Again, I support ES but I also support mentoring to young people

I concur.  As stated above, developing youth should be the meat and potatoes.  For a few reasons.  1.) They're the future leaders of the country.  2.) They're the future of the organization.  3.) Because to some, we're family and we owe it to them.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

cadetnelson

This is an interesting debate, and I can see a lot of logic in everyone's points.  Here's my take on it:

Yes, CAP does teach leadership to youth in an aerospace education type environment.  But I agree with the statement that usually that is not the number one listed reason people join.

Sure, I like being taught leadership, but it's kind of like taking a hunter's safety course.  It's designated purpose is to teach people safe handling of firearms, but if you ask most people why they take the class, they'll tell you it's because it is necessary to get a hunting license.  Same with CAP.  Leadership is great, but I joined because through the program I get to fly and do ES stuff.

Also, about youth being the meat and potatoes of the program, that's true.  CAP is very geared towards the cadet program and I know that is the main focus in my squadron, (which is a composite).  But I'm not sure that's the way it was originally meant to be.  The cadet program wasn't created for a full year after CAP was created, so it could be argued that CAP was meant to be for adults (i.e. subchasers  :) ) at first, and then the cadet program was made to be an extension of the CAP mission.  That's what I believe.  While cadets may be the backbone of much of our activities, I believe CAP is just as much a senior member program as it is for the cadets, at least I believe it should be that way.

My $0.02..... ;D
C/Amn Nelson

ZigZag911

Quote from: arajca on June 05, 2006, 08:19:28 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on June 05, 2006, 08:02:54 PM
I honestly don't know what to believe about the organization anymore.  I can understand that NHQ uses ES as a tool to get more money from the AF and the FED, but should it be that way?  I like the flying, I like the ES stuff, but should one be promoted more than the other.  Only time will tell, and there may be a future were the name is changed to "Civil Ground team Patrol".  We surely are not a Civil Air Patrol anylonger anyway!  When was the last time we "patrolled the skies" in search of an enemy?
When have we patrolled the ground in search of an enemy?

If I am not mistaken, 1942-1945, providing ground defense and security for the CAP patrol bases, most of which were along the eastern seaboard or along the southwest border.


BlackKnight

Let me stir the pot a bit.  Just today I received an email that announced for the first time in many years the wing has spent almost the entire FY budget for cadet o-flights. This is based on May month-end reports and we still have four solid months of good flying weather ahead before the fiscal year ends.

Late Sunday evening I returned from a 3-day 1200 mile driving trip with cadets and seniors to tour the USAF museum and Wright Brothers historical sites in Dayton. [We wanted to fly up but couldn't elicit support from the USAF or ANG.  Also couldn't get any assistance with WPAFB lodging or chow, but we came anyway, staying in local hotels and eating fast food.]  And we had a GREAT time!

So what's all this talk about too much focus on ES and not enough on cadets and AE?  ;D

Just because we write and talk about ES doesn't mean we aren't paying attention to AE and cadet programs...
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

Pylon

Quote from: BlackKnight on June 06, 2006, 03:42:35 AM
Just because we write and talk about ES doesn't mean we aren't paying attention to AE and cadet programs...

So start writing!   ;)
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

mikeylikey

Quote from: BlackKnight on June 06, 2006, 03:42:35 AM
Let me stir the pot a bit.  Just today I received an email that announced for the first time in many years the wing has spent almost the entire FY budget for cadet o-flights. This is based on May month-end reports and we still have four solid months of good flying weather ahead before the fiscal year ends.

Late Sunday evening I returned from a 3-day 1200 mile driving trip with cadets and seniors to tour the USAF museum and Wright Brothers historical sites in Dayton. [We wanted to fly up but couldn't elicit support from the USAF or ANG.  Also couldn't get any assistance with WPAFB lodging or chow, but we came anyway, staying in local hotels and eating fast food.]  And we had a GREAT time!

So what's all this talk about too much focus on ES and not enough on cadets and AE?  ;D

Just because we write and talk about ES doesn't mean we aren't paying attention to AE and cadet programs...

Wow!  I am very surprised you could not get any help from the AF side!  I am also surprised that WPAFB lodging could not help you out.  You did go through the LO for GA right?  If that person said no, I hope you called the LO office in Ohio.  In fact, I believe the Ohio LO would have helped you more than anyone else!
What's up monkeys?

BlackKnight

Quote from: mikeylikey on June 06, 2006, 12:47:06 PM
Wow!  I am very surprised you could not get any help from the AF side!  I am also surprised that WPAFB lodging could not help you out.  You did go through the LO for GA right?  If that person said no, I hope you called the LO office in Ohio.  In fact, I believe the Ohio LO would have helped you more than anyone else!

Apologies to all for this [!OFF-TOPIC!] reply-
Yes (many times!) to all above questions.  This trip was over 12 months in the planning. The consistent standard answer was "No support is available because of operational tempo (Iraq war)".   We are told that airlift support to CAP has been shut down since 9/11 ("operational tempo"), and certainly that has been the case in my wing.  We eventually used an active duty NCO (friend of one of our SM's) who without our prompting got word of our plight to the Ohio LO but nothing came of that.  We were not allowed to initiate contact with the Ohio LO directly. That's all I can say on that issue without jumping chain of command.   ;)
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

arajca

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 06, 2006, 02:32:26 AM
Quote from: arajca on June 05, 2006, 08:19:28 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on June 05, 2006, 08:02:54 PM
I honestly don't know what to believe about the organization anymore.  I can understand that NHQ uses ES as a tool to get more money from the AF and the FED, but should it be that way?  I like the flying, I like the ES stuff, but should one be promoted more than the other.  Only time will tell, and there may be a future were the name is changed to "Civil Ground team Patrol".  We surely are not a Civil Air Patrol anylonger anyway!  When was the last time we "patrolled the skies" in search of an enemy?
When have we patrolled the ground in search of an enemy?

If I am not mistaken, 1942-1945, providing ground defense and security for the CAP patrol bases, most of which were along the eastern seaboard or along the southwest border.


So, since CAP provided secutiry for its own bases, you are saying that is the same as searching for enemy troops on our soil? Like the Subchasers did over our coastal waters?

Chris Jacobs

I have always felt that ES is a great training ground for the cadet leaders.  They have to think more than what they do on a regular basis, and it breaks up the standard stuff they always deal with.  I think they the two programs go hand in hand.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron