Civil Air Patrol History

Started by James Shaw, May 24, 2006, 04:45:25 PM

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Grumpy

I was a cadet in CAWG from 1959 to 1963.  I know for a fact the seniors wore their metal rank on the flight cap during that period.  They also wore it on the shoulders of their blouse.  If I remember correctly, when not wearing the blouse, they also wore it on one collar of their shirt with a CAP cut out on the other collar.

Brian Billing, Major, CAP

JohnKachenmeister

Your memory is sharp, Grumpy.  I came in in 1963 and long.  (My second squadron meeting was cancelled for the Day of Mourning for President Kennedy.)

By the time I came in, officers wore tha cap device on the flight cap but metal rankj in the shoulders of the blues and the collars of the khakis.
Another former CAP officer

Grumpy

I graduated from high school on June 13th (Friday) and on Monday the 16th, I was on my way to Lackland AFB as a brand new A3C (One stripe).  The day Kennedy was killed I had worked the flight line all night as a security cop in the alert B-52 area.  After about an hours sleep the 1st shirt was waking me up telling me to get on the truck, we were going to war.  Of course all we wound up doing was sitting in the back end of a ton and a half until they told us to stand down.  It was interesting for awhile.

Brian Billing

flyguy06

Quote from: caphistorian on June 16, 2006, 05:53:57 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on June 13, 2006, 03:54:39 AM
Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

I do not have access to any of my older CAP information. I will be moving into a new the middle part of July. Until then I will have to rely on memroy for questions. I will not ignore the questions It will just take a while to answer them correctly and accurately.

Wow. Its been almost a year and I still havent gotten that answer yet.

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: flyguy06 on May 17, 2007, 11:45:53 PM
Quote from: caphistorian on June 16, 2006, 05:53:57 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on June 13, 2006, 03:54:39 AM
Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

I do not have access to any of my older CAP information. I will be moving into a new the middle part of July. Until then I will have to rely on memroy for questions. I will not ignore the questions It will just take a while to answer them correctly and accurately.

Wow. Its been almost a year and I still havent gotten that answer yet.

You probably won't, either.  Keeping track of race statistics is a phenomenon that started in the late 1960's.  The US military in the 1940's was segregated by race out of tradition dating back to the Civil War.  In the Civil War, the Union Army formed units of freed slaves under white officers, largely for PR/psychological effect.  Some units were successful, enough that the tradition continued.  The 9th and 10th Cavalry regiments, posted at Ft. Huachuca, Arizona Territory fought the Indians.  Indians, seeing black men for the first time, marveled at their skin color and coarse hair. They called them "Buffalo Soldiers" because the skin color and hair remided them of buffalo.  The name stuck, and both the 9th and 10th unit crests feature the outline image of an American bison.

Negro units in the US Army were collectively identified as "United States Colored Troops" and out west and in other places at old forts you can still see graves with the abbreviation "USCT" instead of "US Army."

John Pershing commanded the 9th Cavalry for a time, and got the nickname "Black Jack" for his service in that post.  By World War I he had reduced the nickname to a single word, "Blackjack" and since it sounded cool, he kept it and encouraged its use.

The military was segregated through the Second World War.  CAP, initially organized under Civil Defense, did not fall under the military tradition of unit segregation, and admitted black pilots and support personnel on the same basis as white volunteers.  To my knowledge, no records indicating race were kept.

In 1948, President Truman ordered de-segregation of the Armed Forces by an executive order in his capacity as commander-in-chief.  Legislation was not required, since there was never a law passed to segregate the military in the first place, only a long-standing tradition.

It is interesting to not that PRIOR to the Civil War there are examples of Negroes who had been freed from slavery joining both the Army and the Navy.  Segregation by race did not begin in the military until the Civil War.

Sorry I can't answer your specific question.  I don't think anybody can, though.
Another former CAP officer

Grumpy

Major Kachenmeister, that was a GREAT history lesson.  I enjoyed reading the history of the black soldiers.

Thanks,

Grumpy

alexalvarez

Ch, Lt. Col., Alex Alvarez
Alamo Composite Squadron, Bexar County Squadron, San Antonio, Texas
Group V Chaplain
Mitchell 1967, Earhart 1967, C/ Lt. Col. 1969
Fifty Year Member 2014

ColonelJack

Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

James Shaw

Quote from: flyguy06 on May 17, 2007, 11:45:53 PM
Quote from: caphistorian on June 16, 2006, 05:53:57 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on June 13, 2006, 03:54:39 AM
Wow. I gues nobody knows the answer to my question.

I do not have access to any of my older CAP information. I will be moving into a new the middle part of July. Until then I will have to rely on memroy for questions. I will not ignore the questions It will just take a while to answer them correctly and accurately.

Wow. Its been almost a year and I still havent gotten that answer yet.

Yes it has almost been a year. My family completed our move without my help. My stuff is still in boxes mostly in storage. I lost the use of my right arm September 18th of last year and am now just getting the use back. I can barely drive, I cant lift my 7 year old son, so wow it has been a year. I will keep my word and get to the information when I am capable. I can type with one hand good and the other like chopsticks.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

alexalvarez

I have lived through history. (Earth forming, large animals roaming the earth, etc).
Ch, Lt. Col., Alex Alvarez
Alamo Composite Squadron, Bexar County Squadron, San Antonio, Texas
Group V Chaplain
Mitchell 1967, Earhart 1967, C/ Lt. Col. 1969
Fifty Year Member 2014

shorning

Quote from: alexalvarez on May 18, 2007, 10:40:23 PM
I have lived through history. (Earth forming, large animals roaming the earth, etc).


JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: shorning on May 19, 2007, 12:00:38 AM
Quote from: alexalvarez on May 18, 2007, 10:40:23 PM
I have lived through history. (Earth forming, large animals roaming the earth, etc).



... Clubbing women and dragging them back to the cave...  I miss the old days!
Another former CAP officer

JC004

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on May 19, 2007, 01:49:16 PM
Quote from: shorning on May 19, 2007, 12:00:38 AM
Quote from: alexalvarez on May 18, 2007, 10:40:23 PM
I have lived through history. (Earth forming, large animals roaming the earth, etc).



... Clubbing women and dragging them back to the cave...  I miss the old days!

Was there also cadet clubbing/dragging?

flyguy06

Actually, I always read that the 9th and 10th Calvary came about after the Civil War in the 1880's.

JohnKachenmeister

You are correct, Flyguy.  I must not have made that clear.  The 9th and 10th were units formed to fight Indians, not to fight the Civil War.

They were, however, like the Civil War Negro Units, made up of black troops under white officers.  The tradition of Negro units began with the Civil War.

In 1948, when the military was de-segregated, the blacks were scattered into formerly all-white units.  They brought with them the tradition of "Jody Calls."  Prior to integration, most Army units drilled by the numbers... hut, twop, threep, and fourp.  The idea of singing songs to keep the marching beat was brought over by the fellows from the old Negro units, who sang about some guy named "Jody" who would run off with your girl while you were gone.

Another former CAP officer

flyguy06

When I was in Iraq in 2006, I visited this airbase and the main unit was the 332nd Air Expiditionary Wing. A direct descendant unit from the Tuskegee Airmen, There that means the Tuskegee Airman unit is still an active duty unit today. I thought that was very interesting. And the unit recognizes it and traces their lineage to the Tuskegee Airmen. In fact a few months before I got there, two original Tuskegee Airmen has visited the unit (Why these old men would want to go to Iraq is beyond my understanding though)

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: flyguy06 on May 21, 2007, 03:16:39 PM
When I was in Iraq in 2006, I visited this airbase and the main unit was the 332nd Air Expiditionary Wing. A direct descendant unit from the Tuskegee Airmen, There that means the Tuskegee Airman unit is still an active duty unit today. I thought that was very interesting. And the unit recognizes it and traces their lineage to the Tuskegee Airmen. In fact a few months before I got there, two original Tuskegee Airmen has visited the unit (Why these old men would want to go to Iraq is beyond my understanding though)

Perhaps I can help you with that understanding.

When I was a city cop in Toledo, I answered a burglary call at 1:00 in the afternoon.  Daytime house burgaries are common, since the burglar usually finds nobody home, and if someone is home, can pass himself off as a magazine salesman, or something.  The house was that of a black attorney that we all called "J.D." and who was a very familiar figure around the various courthouses.  He was in his 70's, and still working.

He came home from court to find a 19-year old gangbanger ransacking his house.  He was too far away from his gun to get it in time, so he grabbed a golf club and began whacking the burglar.  The burglar fled the house, but J.D. chased him for more than two blocks, continuously hitting him with the golf club.  The golf club was bent and had blood splatter on it when I got there.

This was the first time I had seen J.D.'s house, since I usually saw him either in court or in bars.  (He was a real heavy drinker.)  He had a shadowbox with AF pilot wings, and WWII medals.  I asked him if he was one of the Tuskegee Airmen, and he told me he had been a fighter pilot, and flew P-51's during World War II.

My point is, once you are a warrior, especially a successful one, you NEVER QUIT.  You chase the punk until one of you gives out.  And if you can travel to a war zone to help out, even if it is just to provide a sense of tradition and heritage to those who are fighting now, you go there.

While I was talking to J.D. about the Tuskeegee Airmen, the dispatcher called me.  He told me to go to Mercy Hospital, since there was a guy in the E.R. complaining that "A crazy old man attacked him with a golf club."

In the immortal words of Sgt. Preston of the Yukon... "Well, King, this case is closed!"
Another former CAP officer

alexalvarez

Right on Maj. John Kachenmeister, Right on!
Ch, Lt. Col., Alex Alvarez
Alamo Composite Squadron, Bexar County Squadron, San Antonio, Texas
Group V Chaplain
Mitchell 1967, Earhart 1967, C/ Lt. Col. 1969
Fifty Year Member 2014

SKYKING607

Any further information on the locations of the U-Boat sinkings credited to CAP aircraft?  In all the U-Boat web-sites, there is no mention of any loses to CAP aircraft.

Ideas?   U-Boat number? 
CAWG Career Captain

jimmydeanno

#59
Quote from: SKYKING607 on May 22, 2007, 05:22:21 PM
Any further information on the locations of the U-Boat sinkings credited to CAP aircraft?  In all the U-Boat web-sites, there is no mention of any loses to CAP aircraft.

Ideas?   U-Boat number? 

Quote from: http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503081737.pdfIt was one of these larger planes armed with depth charges that made the first CAP "kill." Captain Johnny Haggins and Major Wynant Farr, flying out of Atlantic City, New Jersey, had just become airborne in a Grumman Widgeon (an amphibian, a plane that can land on land or water) when they received a message from another CAP patrol that "contact" had been made about 25 miles off the coast.

The other patrol was low on fuel and was being forced to return to base, so Haggins and Farr sped to the area, while flying a scant 300 feet above the ocean. When the Haggins-Farr patrol reached the area, no sub was in sight. Very shortly thereafter however, Major Farr spotted the U-boat as it cruised beneath the surface of the waves. After radioing to
shore, and knowing that they could not accurately estimate the depth of the sub, the crew decided to follow the sub until (they hoped) it rose to periscope depth, when they would have a better chance of hitting the sub with their depth charges.

For over three hours they shadowed the U-boat and eventually ran low on fuel. Just before they had to turn back, the U-boat rose back up to periscope depth. Captain Haggins swung the plane around quickly and aligned it with the sub. He then began a gentle dive to 100 feet where he leveled off behind the sub's periscope wake. Major Farr pulled the cable release and the first depth charge plummeted into the water just off the sub's bow.

Seconds later a large water and oil geyser erupted, the explosion literally blowing the sub's forward portion out of the water. Shock waves from the blast rocked the patrol plane.

As the sub sank below the surface, it left a huge oil slick as the target for the second run.
On the second run, the remaining depth charge was dropped squarely in the middle of the oil slick.

After the second geyser had settled, pieces of debris began to float to the surface. The CAP Coastal Patrol's first kill was confirmed!

Quote from: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/cap.htmIt had reported 173 U-boats sighted, sunk two, and had dropped a total of 83 bombs and depth charges upon 57 of these – with several other "probables." It's aircrews flew 86,865 missions over coastal waters for a total of 244,600 hours – which approximates to 24 million miles. The patrols summoned help for 91 ships in distress and for 363 survivors of submarine attacks. It sighted and reported 17 floating mines, and, at the request of the US Navy, flew 5,684 special convoy missions. Although the victory against the submarine was a joint operation of the Army, Navy, Coast Guard, and the CAP, it is a fact that the U-boats disappeared in direct proportion to the spread of CAP operations.

Quote from: http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Air_Power/CAP/AP32.htmBy 1943, Civil Air Patrol coastal patrols had flown 244,600 hours totaling 24 million miles (38.6 million kilometers), summoning help for 91 ships in distress and aiding in the rescue of 363 survivors of submarine attacks. CAP patrols spotted 173 enemy submarines, attacking 57 with bombs or depth charges, damaging 10 and sinking 2. In recognition of its effectiveness, President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued an Executive Order on April 29, 1943, establishing the Civil Air Patrol as the auxiliary of the U.S. Army Air Forces. At the time of its transfer to the AAF, the Civil Air Patrol ranks had swelled to more than 75,000 volunteers.

Quote from: http://www.bookrags.com/Civil_Air_PatrolThe CAP's first kill was claimed with one of the larger aircraft. The Grumman G-44 Widgeon, armed with two depth charges and crewed by Captain Johnny Haggins and Major Wynant Farr, was scrambled when another CAP patrol radioed that they had encountered an enemy submarine but were returning to base (due to low fuel). After scanning the area, Farr spotted the U-boat cruising beneath the surface of the waves. Unable to accurately determine the depth of the vessel, Haggins and Ferr radioed the situation back to base and followed the enemy in hopes that it would rise to periscope depth. For three hours, the crew shadowed the submarine, but it didn't rise. Just as Haggins was about to return to base, the U-boat rose to periscope depth, and Haggins swung the aircraft around and aligned with the submarine and dove to 100 feet (30 m). Farr released one of the two depth charges, literally blowing the submarine's front out of the water. As it left an oil slick, Farr released the second charge and debris appeared on the surface, confirming the U-boat's demise and the Civil Air Patrol's first kill.

The kill was perhaps the crowning achievement for CAP's Coastal Patrol, which continued to operate for about 18 months (from March 5, 1942 to August 31, 1943) before being officially retired. In this timeframe, the Coastal Patrol reported 173 U-boats, 57 of which were attacked by CAP aircraft with 83 ordnance pieces, and two of which were confirmed sunk. For a group of volunteer civilians, this is without a doubt a monumental achievement. In addition, the Coastal Patrol flew 86,865 missions, logging over 244,600 hours. Coastal Patrol aircraft reported 91 ships in distress and played a key role in rescuing 363 survivors of U-boat attacks. 117 floating mines were reported and 5,684 convoy missions were flown for the Navy.[3]



Other sources listed:

Quote from: http://www.amazon.com/Maine-Mexico-Americas-Private-Against/dp/0964474018/ref=sr_1_1/002-1524621-4823222?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179857516&sr=1-1
Keefer, Louis E., From Maine to Mexico: With America's Private Pilots in the Fight against Nazi U-Boats. Reston, Va.: COTU Publishing, 1997

Quote from: http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Minute-Men-story-Patrol/dp/B0007HH1US/ref=sr_1_1/002-1524621-4823222?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179857568&sr=1-1Neprud, Robert E., Flying Minute Men: The Story of the Civil Air Patrol. New York: Duell, Sloan & Pearce, 1948

The last quoted source above was an excellent read, and provided many names and locations to do some further research on.  I obviously don't have the time to do such right now, but if you are that interested, those are some good starting points...



If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill