Complaints against MG Courter

[LtCol057]

I have to agree with MSgt Van.  Almost sounds to me like the Col that initially mentioned it is trying to make a name for himself.   It happens everyday. Someone is accused of something and then they're tried in the press, even before a full investigation has been made.  Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? 

[Gunner C]

It's a shame to see good officers like her drug through the mud.  No wonder there's so few good senior leaders.

[flyguy06]

I find it interesting people are making light of some complaint and joking but when another National Commander was complained on people were ready for his head. Interesting.

[NIN]

I find it interesting people are making light of some complaint and joking but when another National Commander was complained on people were ready for his head. Interesting.

Thats because we had 8-10 years of foreknowledge that HWSNBN was not someone to be trusted.  And his track record eventually showed it. 

MG Courter's record is precisely the opposite.

[flyguy06]

Ohh, ok. thanks for the understanding.itry not to get involved in al thehe said she said stuff. i am just in CAP to have fun. Not to gossip

[Nathan]

Ohh, ok. thanks for the understanding.itry not to get involved in al thehe said she said stuff. i am just in CAP to have fun. Not to gossip

Uh... what?

Anywho, I am actually more surprised that she has gone this long WITHOUT a complaint. Not because of her conduct. I've honestly heard nothing but good things about her.

Rather, it's just the nature of the position. It's not the CC's job to make everyone happy, and someone who gets the raw end of a deal is going to get honked off enough to try to take on the CC. I don't see why people think this is anything even worth talking about. It happens at squadron, wing, and region level. It happens outside of CAP. It happens at school. It happens in regular politics. It happens at the office.

So what's the big deal?

[Hawk200]

It happens outside of CAP. It happens at school. It happens in regular politics. It happens at the office.

A point I hadn't considered. An individual in my unit has been engaging in similar antics since my little adventure started. He's from halfway across the country, barely knows anything about me now (who wants to get to know a person that trashes you?), much less when we even started.

I'd like to ask the person who started trashing Courter for legitimate proof of their claims. I've found that demanding proof tends to shut them up. When they can't handle such demands, you usually don't hear much more from them.

[RRLE]

Anyone know what the allegations are? PM me, I wouldn't want it up in public.

They have been for some time. Just google CAPTalk. Keep in mind, an allegation is just that. It is not a fact.

So a Wing Commander acknowledged the allegations. He did not state it was over. Other posters here claim the whole thing is over - so what is the official word. Is it over and done with or is/are the investigation(s) continuing?

[Rob Sherlin]

 I wouldn't believe everything you hear or read folks. People have a habit of relaying partial or incorrect information (especially the further down "the grape vine" it goes), and even making it sound worse if there's some sort of revenge, or gain for themselves. So, basically, all that's going on is "gossip", and just makes things worse and more confusing. If the whole thing is over, it's over. If it's not, then eventually everyone will know the outcome and what happened...Otherwise, I think everyone is just "banging their head" trying to figure it out, when all the information is just "hear say" anyway.

[RiverAux]

And you brought this up for what reason?

Like it or not, this is major news related to the head of the organization confirmed by a member of the National Board in a public newsletter. 

While I bet every CAP national commander has probably had someone file complaints against them, most of which are probably baseless and easily dismissed, the fact that these discussions were characterized as "rather difficult" seems like it would be quite unusual and would indicate that the complaints were not entirely without merit. 

[NIN]

While I bet every CAP national commander has probably had someone file complaints against them, most of which are probably baseless and easily dismissed, the fact that these discussions were characterized as "rather difficult" seems like it would be quite unusual and would indicate that the complaints were not entirely without merit. 

I think you're reading too much into it.  Any time you're being subjected to frivolous complaints, its "difficult" to get the business of the organization done while at the same time dealing with the investigation and all that junk.  Not to mention that I believe the BoG was the ones who directed the investigation or, perhaps more precisely, the involvement of the IG.  (ie. as dwb said, sometimes there is a complaint w/o a corresponding full-blown investigation, since a cursory examination of the facts reveals that there is nothing to investigate..) 

The whole thing sounds like sour grapes on the part of some folks who wish the status quo would remain.  Its always "difficult" to effect a cultural change on an organization, especially surrounding something as nebulous (to some folks who lack them) as ethics and integrity.  This could be things like people feel their power is threatened, individuals who reached certain places in the organization not based on what they knew or what they could do, but rather on who they were friends with or what dirt they had on "the other guy," etc.  IOW, people who might be in higher positions than they really should be based on their abilities, knowledge and personal values and feel that the only way they can remain relevant and "move up in the world" is to try to "take out" what appears to be the sole threat to their continued existence.

Its like the Wild West: A new sheriff rolls into town, and the shadier characters are the ones who are worried.  The folks who are doing their jobs, doing it well, and are operating on the correct side of the ethics & values equation have next to zero to fear. But the guy bootlegging 'shine, the fellow with the speakeasy, and the guy who runs the local brothel are immediately scheming ways to bump off the new lawman, the threat to their way of doing business.

[RiverAux]

NIN, it is entirely possible that I'm reading too much into that paragrah and conversely, I think its possible that you're speculating (sour grapes, etc.) a bit beyond the available facts as well.  We have no evidence of what these complaints were actually about or who made them.

 

[NIN]

NIN, it is entirely possible that I'm reading too much into that paragrah and conversely, I think its possible that you're speculating (sour grapes, etc.) a bit beyond the available facts as well.  We have no evidence of what these complaints were actually about or who made them.

Actually, I probably have a *bit* more info than you do. (and "sour grapes" is a gross oversimplification on my part) 

And my wing commander is the one who wrote the cited article.

[Rob Sherlin]

  NIN....I couldn't agree with you more! That's the point I was trying to make in a brief quote (let the officials deal with it, when the final outcome is heard, and it's official, then start making noise on whether you think it's right or wrong). None of us were actually there as a witness! So, you can't assume anything!
  If it were THAT BIG OF A DEAL, I'm sure the acused would be suspended (no matter who they are), and a the secondary replacement would act in their stead...That has not happened!....Maybe everyone is making something out of nothing!
  I suggest everyone to focus on their duty to CAP, and stop worrying about what's happening with upper command until it's a final thing and is a hardship to you or your squadron.

  A lot of people talk about lack of good leaders for a lot of reasons...Maybe this is a major influence....Too many people get caught up in CAP politics, instead of focusing on a level where they can actually do something!

[RiverAux]

If it were THAT BIG OF A DEAL, I'm sure the acused would be suspended (no matter who they are), and a the secondary replacement would act in their stead...That has not happened!....Maybe everyone is making something out of nothing!

If these complaints were before the National Board then that means that one of these three things happened following an investigation of the complaints by the National Legal Officer:

1.  The NLO determined that there was probable cause for removing the Nat Cdr based on personal misconduct.  The NB would then have to convene and consider her removal.  If the NLO first presented his report at a scheduled NB meeting, then there would be no need to suspend the Nat Cdr as that is only done for the period between when the report is presented and when the NB considers it.

2.  The NLO determined that there was not probable cause for removing the Nat Cdr for personal misconduct, but a majority of NB members submitted ballots overturning that decision, which would lead to it being discussed at the NB.

3. If the complaints were about something other than personal conduct, it means that a majority of the NB members signed a petition demanding the Nat Cdr be removed, leading to the discussions at the NB.

These are the only real options for bringing charges against the Nat Cdr.  So, the very fact that they were brought up at a NB meeting means that either the NLO or a majority of the NB thought they had merit.  They wouldn't have been discussed if they were thought not credible by the NLO or a majority of the NB. 

However, even if a majority of the NB thought they had merit, it takes 2/3 members to vote her out. 

[Rob Sherlin]

Never the less, that should be up to those involved and not discussed here on CAPtalk. Remember, you don't have to be a member of CAP, or go through OPSEC to be a part of CAPtalk. Let's let the people who are suppose to handle it do so, and not make "muddy waters"!

[sparks]

Waiving CAP's dirty laundry in public certainly isn't the organizations first choice. If the alledged problems were settled quickly and the decision reported maybe this wouldn't have become a public issue. If it weren't for comments in CAPtalk and elsewhere none of us would even know an investigation was in progress. Keeping the membership in the dark is bad at all levels.

I hope the investigation process is completed soon and a decision reported. The longer this drags on the uglier the rumors will get. 

[RiverAux]

If one of CAP's governing bodies was seriously considering the removal of the head of the organization, then it should not be done in secret. 

How would everyone feel if they turned on their computer one day to find that the House of Representatives had impeached the President and the Senate convicted him of the charges and removed him from office, all without anyone in the country knowing what was going on?

The only time the general membership should NOT be well informed about the status of complaints against the National Commander is if the NLO investigated them, found no probable cause, and the NB failed to override that decision by submitting ballots to that effect by mail after receiving a report.  In those cases we can assume that the charges were probably without any merit and there is no need to air them in public.

But, if the NB as a body is at any time is actually discussing the charges in one of their meetings, then we should know what is going on. 

[RRLE]

Just google CAPTalk.

That should have been google CAP Insights. And take everything you read there with several grains of salt.

[sparks]

I agree 100% the membership needs to know about investigations concerning the National commander.  There is no official NHQ statement about this that I have seen, that just encourages the rumor mill.