Satisfactory Cadet Progression

Started by Horn229, April 10, 2006, 02:34:16 AM

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Horn229

Quote from: BillB on April 09, 2006, 06:50:50 PM
Unless of course they do not progress and stay as a career C/CMSgt or C/2Lt, but then again, that violates the cadet oath.

*sigh*

Why do people say that? It doesn't say that. It says "Advance my education and training rapidly, to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation" not "promote real fast so that my squadron/wing can boost their statistics".

I was a C/2d Lt for over two years, a C/1st Lt for a year, and I've been a C/Maj now for nearly 2 years now. Am I violating the oath? Nope. Why? Because I have and am still advancing my education, and constantly training so that I can be of service to my community state and nation. I'm active in ES, I'm the DOS for my squadron, and the ground ES training guy for the wing.

In fact, just yesterday was our GTE, and the ground portion (I was GBD) did a very good job. If we were able to get the grade we did on a training mission, then I just hope we can get a "satisfactory" (completing the mission) on the next redcap.

Now if a cadet isn't promoting, and isn't doing anything else in CAP to be constantly learning something, then there is a problem. Personally, I've always been in favor of taking your time while promoting. When you sit at the various achievements, you learn more. When you force people to speed through the ranks, you're cheating them out great leadership learning experiences.

/rant
NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Horn229 on April 10, 2006, 02:34:16 AM
Quote from: BillB on April 09, 2006, 06:50:50 PM
Unless of course they do not progress and stay as a career C/CMSgt or C/2Lt, but then again, that violates the cadet oath.

*sigh*

Why do people say that? It doesn't say that. It says "Advance my education and training rapidly, to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation" not "promote real fast so that my squadron/wing can boost their statistics".

I was a C/2d Lt for over two years, a C/1st Lt for a year, and I've been a C/Maj now for nearly 2 years now. Am I violating the oath? Nope. Why? Because I have and am still advancing my education, and constantly training so that I can be of service to my community state and nation. I'm active in ES, I'm the DOS for my squadron, and the ground ES training guy for the wing.

In fact, just yesterday was our GTE, and the ground portion (I was GBD) did a very good job. If we were able to get the grade we did on a training mission, then I just hope we can get a "satisfactory" (completing the mission) on the next redcap.

Now if a cadet isn't promoting, and isn't doing anything else in CAP to be constantly learning something, then there is a problem. Personally, I've always been in favor of taking your time while promoting. When you sit at the various achievements, you learn more. When you force people to speed through the ranks, you're cheating them out great leadership learning experiences.

/rant

I agree with C/Maj Horn. 'Rank cranking' isn't the be-all-end-all to progress through the cadet program. The regs specify only a minimum time in grade to progress and earn milestone awards. BITD WIWAC I spent a good deal of time in the lower cadet airman/NCO grades. Did it make me any less of a cadet than others who blew through their achievements to higher grade? No. Now, if a cadet isn't doing anything to advance himself or herself, then that's when they should reevaluate their participation as cadets.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Eclipse

#2
Quote from: Horn229 on April 10, 2006, 02:34:16 AM

I was a C/2d Lt for over two years, a C/1st Lt for a year, and I've been a C/Maj now for nearly 2 years now. Am I violating the oath? Nope. Why? Because I have and am still advancing my education, and constantly training so that I can be of service to my community state and nation. I'm active in ES, I'm the DOS for my squadron, and the ground ES training guy for the wing.


Two years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

I don't know how old you are, but as a crusty C/Maj, you should be at or close to Spaatz. Should you ultimately not attain C/Col, you'll have no one to blame but yourself, as I see about 3-4 years of wasted time.  That means leadership opportunities have been lost for your unit, and doors are closed to opportunities you may have had.

There's a reason for the progression requirement - we don't want stagnant "Leadership Corps" types who reach a certain grade and then level out.  As a cadet you should be reaching up in the program the whole time you are in it.  Cadets harp on Seniors who are "lifetime Captains" but many seem to think it is just fine for them. This is one of the reasons I support the CP so much, it is one of the few programs of its type that still has an expectation of performance.

We're not talking about rank cranking, we're talking about working the program as it is defined.
If the issue is a cadet who chooses to do ES to the detriment of his CAP career, meaning he's testing and failing regularly, I would counsel him to reduce his ES time a bit and focus on the tests. 

If its because he is ignoring progression, then the counsel is to forget about ES for a while and work on his CAP career. ES, color guards, drill teams, and similar activities are great "nice to haves", but as has been pointed out numerous times here and other boards, they are not core components of the CP, and therefore core activities must take precedence over the less important stuff.

Either way, once that magic 6 months passes, uncomfortable conversations are on the horizon.

Don't forget, grade is not all about YOU, it is also about what it means to those coming up behind you. 

"That Others May Zoom"

Horn229

Quote from: Eclipse on April 10, 2006, 04:06:36 AM
Two years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

Not really. I think I've spent a proper ammount of time in each grade. When I was a C/2d Lt, I held 2 positions in my squadron, went to ANGSAR, got some comm ratings, and joined wing staff. I learned a lot about leadership, the ins and outs of the executive side of the house, and when I was ready for another promotion I persued it.

QuoteI don't know how old you are, but as a crusty C/Maj, you should be at or close to Spaatz. Should you ultimately not attain C/Col, you'll have no one to blame but yourself, as I see about 3-4 years of wasted time.  That means leadership opportunities have been lost for your unit, and doors are closed to opportunities you may have had.

I've got 1.5 years left as a cadet. What exactly is a "crusty C/Maj"? The only thing that's been holding me up from getting light colonel is the AFIADL 13. I can't figure out how to order the AFIADL 13 test, I've had the books for a while now, just need to order the test. But why should my ultimate goal be the spaatz? I've had quite a few senior members bug me about the spaatz. Sure it would be great to get, and I'll most likely be dissapointed if I don't get it, but is it really the end of the world?

I joined CAP for the ES portion. Over the last few years I've done two flight encampments, NFA-G out there in Mattoon, and last year I even did JFE and went through the balloon couse. Oh, and of course I've also done NGSAR staff and Encampment staff. I've been incredibly active in all aspects of CAP. And I think I can say that I've learned a lot about CAP and leadership, and I think I've learned more than some spaatz cadets have. But will I be dissapointed if I don't get the spaatz? Yup. Will it be the end of the world for me? No.

QuoteThere's a reason for the progression requirement - we don't want stagnant "Leadership Corps" types who reach a certain grade and then level out.  As a cadet you should be reaching up in the program the whole time you are in it.  Cadets harp on Seniors who are "lifetime Captains" but many seem to think it is just fine for them. This is one of the reasons I support the CP so much, it is one of the few programs of its type that still has an expectation of performance.

I'm with you on that. But as long as they're doing something to stay active in the program and learn, that's all that should really matter. Just because someone isn't getting more pips/diamonds doesn't mean they're not doing anything to learn how to be a better leader.

QuoteWe're not talking about rank cranking, we're talking about working the program as it is defined.
If the issue is a cadet who chooses to do ES to the detriment of his CAP career, meaning he's testing and failing regularly, I would counsel him to reduce his ES time a bit and focus on the tests.

If you're trying to imply that I'm having trouble with the tests, you'd be wrong. I finished achievement 15 over a year ago, I just don't have the AFIADL 13 done. :) 

QuoteIf its because he is ignoring progression, then the counsel is to forget about ES for a while and work on his CAP career. ES, color guards, drill teams, and similar activities are great "nice to haves", but as has been pointed out numerous times here and other boards, they are not core components of the CP, and therefore core activities must take precedence over the less important stuff.

So what exactly is a "core activity" of the program?

QuoteEither way, once that magic 6 months passes, uncomfortable conversations are on the horizon.

Don't forget, grade is not all about YOU, it is also about what it means to those coming up behind you. 

Well then pardon me for be selfish, but I'd rather promote when I feel that I'm ready, than be forced to promote and end up being one of the "He is what you get when you don't do ____" examples.

Oh and since the cadet program is really about teaching followership skills then moving on to leadership and management skills, doing Ground Team is a great resource to learn some of those skills. I've been doing GT stuff some '98, and I've been leading/instructing teams at NGSAR since '02, and I've been the GBD in my wing for over a year.

Being a GTM is a great way to teach practical teamwork skills. Acting as a GTL is a just another form of being a Flight Commander, and being a GBD is a great way to hone some C/CC duties, or mangement style skills.
NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP

Eclipse

A "crusty C/Maj" is one who has been in grade for two years, with his Spaatz clock ticking and can't figure out who to ask for help with the an ECI Course.  Or how about a C/Maj who believes ES is part of the core of the CP.  Its beneficial, yes, and I encourage it, but there are probably more cadets units than not who have zero ES involvement and are still very successful.

You are attempting to take the tac many Seniors do - "I've been too busy shoring up the program to worry about my own progression."

That's nonsense, but unfortunately too many cadets and Seniors take the "easy" way out and use this excuse.

"Easy way out?"  Do you know how busy I was doing X-Y-& Z?!?!?!" 

Yes, the "easy way out".  By "easy", I mean little to no barometer of performance.
You can trot around, find some ELT's, go to encampments, etc., do some staff work, but these activities don't have the hard-fast finality of a TEST. 

Its much easier to be "too busy" to progress and then clock out of Spaatz, then apply yourself, step up and take your shot at the tests.

Flame away if you like, but your unit CC has been doing you a disservice not pushing you to progress.

One of the great things about the CP is that it forces young people out of their comfort zones and pushes them towards a goal - assuming no one presents the "easy" way out.

Besides, C/Maj if you really do the math, you are probably really stuck, mentally, at C/Capt.  C/Maj, for practical purposes, is a gimme. 

Come on, you can almost feel the extra weight of the second diamond, and you know if you really busted ass you could make the third.

With all the hard work you've put in, you deserve the credit and the "street cred" that comes with Spaatz.

Besides, think of all the fun you could have being a "know-it-all" 21-year old Senior Captain!

"That Others May Zoom"

Pylon

Quote from: Eclipse on April 10, 2006, 04:06:36 AM
Quote from: Horn229 on April 10, 2006, 02:34:16 AM

I was a C/2d Lt for over two years, a C/1st Lt for a year, and I've been a C/Maj now for nearly 2 years now. Am I violating the oath? Nope. Why? Because I have and am still advancing my education, and constantly training so that I can be of service to my community state and nation. I'm active in ES, I'm the DOS for my squadron, and the ground ES training guy for the wing.


Two years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

I don't know how old you are, but as a crusty C/Maj, you should be at or close to Spaatz. Should you ultimately not attain C/Col, you'll have no one to blame but yourself, as I see about 3-4 years of wasted time.  That means leadership opportunities have been lost for your unit, and doors are closed to opportunities you may have had.

There's a reason for the progression requirement - we don't want stagnant "Leadership Corps" types who reach a certain grade and then level out.  As a cadet you should be reaching up in the program the whole time you are in it.  Cadets harp on Seniors who are "lifetime Captains" but many seem to think it is just fine for them. This is one of the reasons I support the CP so much, it is one of the few programs of its type that still has an expectation of performance.

We're not talking about rank cranking, we're talking about working the program as it is defined.
If the issue is a cadet who chooses to do ES to the detriment of his CAP career, meaning he's testing and failing regularly, I would counsel him to reduce his ES time a bit and focus on the tests. 

If its because he is ignoring progression, then the counsel is to forget about ES for a while and work on his CAP career. ES, color guards, drill teams, and similar activities are great "nice to haves", but as has been pointed out numerous times here and other boards, they are not core components of the CP, and therefore core activities must take precedence over the less important stuff.

Either way, once that magic 6 months passes, uncomfortable conversations are on the horizon.

Don't forget, grade is not all about YOU, it is also about what it means to those coming up behind you. 


Bob, I have to respectfully disagree with you here, too.  Of course we don't want cadets to stagnate at a certain level, become content with wherever they are in the program, and do nothing but show up to meetings.  However, you have to remember that there are other factors in life that come before Civil Air Patrol, and for many, this is namely "College."

I got my Mitchell in 1998 and by the end of my cadet career in 2004, I had only promoted to C/Capt.  Was I a lazy bum who desecrated the cadet oath and who was an abomination to the core values of the CAP cadet corps?  I doubt it.  I wasn't around much after I graduated high school.  I moved away to college, lived on a residential campus without a car.  There was no opportunity to attend a CAP meeting for me while I was at college -- and I didn't.  During the summers, I focused on something that would actually get me somewhere in life -- particularly job skills and work experience.  I knew enough to realize my future employer would not make a hire or fire decision based on the words Eaker or Spaatz versus Earhart on my resume, but work experience would make that difference.

It's easy to chastize the nameless, ideal cadet for failing to progress because in an ideal world, they'd just be slacking if they weren't cranking out a promotion every 6 months.  In the real world, there's a lot more to the CAP Cadet Program and while cadets learn more as they progress, certain things (especially college) interfere with this.  If that's unacceptable to you, then you're probably going to have to terminate every cadet that goes away to college, at the cost of alientating any potential future cadets become senior members who would serve in your unit.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Hammer

Quote from: Eclipse on April 10, 2006, 04:06:36 AMTwo years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

What happens six months after no promotion?

Eclipse

#7
Quote from: Hammer on April 10, 2006, 03:00:18 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 10, 2006, 04:06:36 AMTwo years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

What happens six months after no promotion?

IAW CAPR 52-16:

Page 8, Section 2-1, g
2-3 PROGRESSION.
g. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3 Membership Termination ).

At 6 months with no indication of a further plan, there is the seed of a problem.  At one year, we are into potential 2b territory, and now that cadet is behind the 8-ball.

I'm not saying that an active cadet should be term'ed at day 366 for non-progression, but certainly serious discussions need to be had regarding where that cadet is focusing his efforts.  Seniors who allow cadets to put too much on their plate are not doing them a service.

I don't think one click up a year is too much to ask.

"That Others May Zoom"

Nathan

Quote from: Eclipse on April 10, 2006, 05:36:48 PMAt 6 months with no indication of a further plan, there is the seed of a problem.  At one year, we are into potential 2b territory, and now that cadet is behind the 8-ball.

I'm not saying that an active cadet should be term'ed at day 366 for non-progression, but certainly serious discussions need to be had regarding where that cadet is focusing his efforts.  Seniors who allow cadets to put too much on their plate are not doing them a service.

I don't think one click up a year is too much to ask.

Agreed.

The tests are honestly not that hard. Most of the tests that I've taken I've been able to pass or nearly pass with nothing but common sense and a little prior knowledge learned at encampment.

When you have someone who suffers from the infamous Mitchell Syndrome for over a year... well, basically it means that they're in it for:

A) The military benefits awarded with the Mitchell
B) Access to CAP only activities like PJOC and NBB
C) To keep wearing a uniform

As much as the little hooahs want to believe it, we're not the military, and in the cadet side, we aren't expected to stick to Captain for eight years. If someone is sticking around too long at any grade (besides C/Lt Col and C/Col, I suppose), they need to seriously be questioned. A leader is supposed to lead, not stagnate.
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

Horn229

Quote from: Eclipse on April 10, 2006, 07:26:43 AM
A "crusty C/Maj" is one who has been in grade for two years, with his Spaatz clock ticking and can't figure out who to ask for help with the an ECI Course.  Or how about a C/Maj who believes ES is part of the core of the CP.  Its beneficial, yes, and I encourage it, but there are probably more cadets units than not who have zero ES involvement and are still very successful.

You are attempting to take the tac many Seniors do - "I've been too busy shoring up the program to worry about my own progression."

That's nonsense, but unfortunately too many cadets and Seniors take the "easy" way out and use this excuse.

"Easy way out?"  Do you know how busy I was doing X-Y-& Z?!?!?!" 

Yes, the "easy way out".  By "easy", I mean little to no barometer of performance.
You can trot around, find some ELT's, go to encampments, etc., do some staff work, but these activities don't have the hard-fast finality of a TEST. 

Its much easier to be "too busy" to progress and then clock out of Spaatz, then apply yourself, step up and take your shot at the tests.

Flame away if you like, but your unit CC has been doing you a disservice not pushing you to progress.

One of the great things about the CP is that it forces young people out of their comfort zones and pushes them towards a goal - assuming no one presents the "easy" way out.

Besides, C/Maj if you really do the math, you are probably really stuck, mentally, at C/Capt.  C/Maj, for practical purposes, is a gimme. 

Come on, you can almost feel the extra weight of the second diamond, and you know if you really busted ass you could make the third.

With all the hard work you've put in, you deserve the credit and the "street cred" that comes with Spaatz.

Besides, think of all the fun you could have being a "know-it-all" 21-year old Senior Captain!


Ya, I guess you're right. I have taken the easy way out. I've done nothing of importance for the last year.

I mean, I only finished up achievement 15 in early '05, to turn around and take care of my dad who was in his final months. Ya, I'd stay at home all day every day and watch my dad's declining health, while there was nothing I could do to help him, except do what I could to ease his life by doing the little stuff for him to either make him happy or comfortable.

Had I really sat down and re thought my priorities, I could have just gone out, gotten a job, studied for the spaatz, and achieved the oh so covetted title of Cadet Colonel and ignored my dad let him just die off. Who cares right, he was going to die anyway?

Excuse me. I was "busy" and still am. I went from taking care of my dad while he was dieing, then when he passed away we buried him. The exact same day of the funeral I left to go to JFE. Afte JFE ended I had a little bit of time to relax, then went to NGSAR for 2 weeks. After then I had about 2 weeks to relax then went to encampment. After that I had 3 weeks to relax then started college.

Ya, I should've blown off my family, and stuff that I'd already paid for and gotten promoted. Yup, that would make me real happy, and an excellent role model.

I'm done with this conversation.
NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP

Eclipse

Please, save the indignant attitude. We all have life issues, and none of the challenges with your father were brought up until this minute. Unless he was ill for an extended period, it doesn't speak to the issues of your 2 years as a 2nd Lt, which is likely where your problems started.

You also can't make the argument that the exception makes the rule, which should be a ribbon
in CAP, because many members, senior and cadet, think policy should be based on exceptions.

Commander's discretion is designed for your situation, but the proper atmosphere of positive pressure from the start would have not left you in the position you were in when time started getting tight for you. More push as a 2nd Lt might have you at Spaatz now.

Which is another of the reasons the CP pushes progression.  NHQ realizes that the older you get, the more divided your time becomes, making it even harder to stay engaged.

Beyond that you are making my argument for me.  When your unit CC approved your participation in JFE and GSAR, he should have been looking at your current state in the program and discussed if these "extracurricular" activities were where you should be spending your time.  That's one of the reasons we are supposed to sign off on these - to be part of the process in deciding whether a respective activity is a good fit. (Though many CC's never even look at the forms, which defeats the purpose).

I can't tell you how any conversations I have had with Unit CC's who have sent cadets, who for one reason or another should have never gotten their blessing to attend ILWG Spring.  When I
bring it to their attention that the Unit CC is there to guide the career of a cadet, many are shocked at the concept.

But that is our job, to make sure you can engage in the program at a level that fits both the requirements, your abilities, and your current state of life.  And when that fit becomes out of balance it is time for a change. Whether that means a hiatus, adjustment of activities, a transfer or a 2b depends on the situation.

"That Others May Zoom"

Pylon

Bob, you still haven't addressed the college situation.  Many cadets go off to college.  It isn't necessarily a choice to stop participating in CAP at that point.  I used my situation as an example of this -- I lived on campus for 4 years at a small, private residential college in Loudonville, New York (rural Albany county).  I didn't own a car nor have access to one until after I graduated college.  There were no other CAP members at my college that I was aware of.  There wasn't even AFROTC.

For a portion of my college years, I lived in France while I studied at the University of Paris.

Both of these situations made it impossible for me to participate effectively in my promotion process or CAP in general.   I had the rare opportunity to participate in IACE, however, over one of the summer vacations.  If I had terminated my cadet membership, I would have missed out on the opportunity that is still the highlight of my CAP career.

In addition, if someone had terminated my membership for failure to progress satisfactorily, do you think I'd still be in CAP as a senior member, working in the cadet program, and carrying on 3+ duty assignments?   Definitely not.

You have to consider the spirit of that oath and progression suggestions in a real world context.  That's why commander's discretion is there.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Pylon

I also split this topic from the flight suit discussion from the uniforms section, since there were clearly two very distinct conversations overlapping there.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Hammer

Quote from: Eclipse on April 10, 2006, 05:36:48 PM
Quote from: Hammer on April 10, 2006, 03:00:18 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 10, 2006, 04:06:36 AMTwo years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

What happens six months after no promotion?

IAW CAPR 52-16:

Page 8, Section 2-1, g
2-3 PROGRESSION.
g. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3 Membership Termination ).

At 6 months with no indication of a further plan, there is the seed of a problem.  At one year, we are into potential 2b territory, and now that cadet is behind the 8-ball.

I'm not saying that an active cadet should be term'ed at day 366 for non-progression, but certainly serious discussions need to be had regarding where that cadet is focusing his efforts.  Seniors who allow cadets to put too much on their plate are not doing them a service.

I don't think one click up a year is too much to ask.

WOW.  There's a C/Lt Col with a date of rank of March 2003!! in my Squadron.  Nothing was ever said/done to him.

Pylon

Quote from: Hammer on April 10, 2006, 08:16:35 PM

WOW.  There's a C/Lt Col with a date of rank of March 2003!! in my Squadron.  Nothing was ever said/done to him.

That also may be a factor of the testing restrictions on the Spaatz exam.  A cadet may make only three attempts to successfully pass all the portions of the Spaatz examination.  After the third failed try, they are no longer allowed to re-test and would have to remain a C/Lt Col.  This is a distinct possibility for some.

Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

dwb

Maybe I've just lowered my standards, but I'm happy to see cadets who reach Phase IV.  In two years when Nick is a s'member, I wouldn't bash him if C/Maj were as far as he got.  C/Maj is great!  Good for him!

I think a cadet's progression, frankly, is between him and his commander (I'm not going to play the pronoun game, but assume him/her substitutions as necessary).

Anyone who knows me knows I am strongly in favor of progressing through Phases III and IV.  Those are where the REAL leadership lessons are, IMO.  "Career NCOs" aren't doing what the program is designed to do; instead, they're settling where they are comfortable.

However, the reason that not everyone progresses at the "canned" pace of two achievements per year is because not everyone is a "canned" scenario.  College, family, friends, jobs... all these things are all part of the equation.  Not to mention that some cadets plain don't want to be Spaatzen, or don't pack the gear to do so (note: I don't lump Nick in either category).

We should encourage cadets to grow, learn, and make themselves better.  But sometimes, for some people, that requires sticking around in a particular phase of the cadet program for a little longer.

(Full disclosure: I was a C/Lt Col)

Eclipse

Quote from: Pylon on April 10, 2006, 08:05:28 PM
Bob, you still haven't addressed the college situation. 

I think I did, but again you are the exception, probably deserving of some discretion.

The issue I am trying to put forth is that progression requirements are one of the few things left that make the CP unique over watered-down programs like the BSA. I was a Boy Scout - 2 merit badges got you First Class, which meant you could be a Patrol Leader and Leadership Corps, which meant you ate with the adult leaders and could push the new scouts around like you owned the joint.  Eagles were applauded, but stagnant scouts weren't pushed.

Its why CAP is more than a social organization.  we offer unique opportunities and experiences, but payment for those is supposed to be participation in the whole program.  Its not supposed to be ala carte.

For every cadet you show me with a unique situation that requires discretion, I'll show you
5 that are just blowing off the program and no one is even making an issue of it, let alone
considering termination.

If pure numeric retention is the goal, and membership for nostalgia is the reason for cadets to stay on during disconnected years, then move those cadets off the unit to the state's inactive squadron, and relieve the administrative burden from the previous unit.  Then the Wing King can decide whether to bounce them for non-progression

Too often we people treat CAP as a restaurant - wander in when you feel like it, order something that looks good that day, and then blow off paying the check.   What value do you offer the organization when you are a transient "twice-a-year" member? Yet the "regulars" are supposed to
keep the light burning on the porch for when the "TAY's" decided that the meeting was more important than a Sopranos rerun.

The active components, and civilian employers would not stand for that kind of behavior, and neither should we. 

Then we wonder why our retention is down, readiness doesn't match our rosters, and the organization as a whole seems stuck in the mud, and "not like the old days".






"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: justin_bailey on April 10, 2006, 08:27:06 PM
We should encourage cadets to grow, learn, and make themselves better.  But sometimes, for some people, that requires sticking around in a particular phase of the cadet program for a little longer.


I can't disagree with that, but at a minimum the issue should be in front of everyone from day zero.  As has been noted here, many cadets and seniors, even commanders, don't even know about the requirement.

If requirement is too strong a word, perhaps importance or possibility is better.

Bottom line, there aren't too many things detailed in the regs to get you 2b'ed, yet NHQ thinks progression is important enough to be specific abut it.

"That Others May Zoom"

dwb

If I were to conjecture, I would say that language is in the regulation to help squadrons justify getting rid of cadets who have a multitude of issues, and also who chronically do not promote (i.e., nothing but trouble, been in for six years and put on two stripes).

I don't think it is NHQ's intent to literally shove out all non-progressing cadets.  At the least, we'd probably lose most of our college-attending cadets.

This is one of those instances where the letter of the regulation needs to be balanced with intent and real world circumstances.

MIKE

Quote from: justin_bailey on April 10, 2006, 08:27:06 PM
We should encourage cadets to grow, learn, and make themselves better.  But sometimes, for some people, that requires sticking around in a particular phase of the cadet program for a little longer.

I agree... IMO the Cadet Program is not a race... Promotions are only one element and they are a privilege of those cadets who have clearly demonstrated that are ready to assume responsibilities commensurate with that promotion... They are not a right.  Cadets who complete the requirements for an achievement or award are not automatically entitled to promotion, nor are cadets necessarily required to complete at least two achievements per year or face termination of membership.
Mike Johnston