TIGERSTRIKE DF Unit

[Flying Pig]

Believe me.  Not upset.  Disappointed.  And I did.  Why, is it some sort of secret or something?

[PHall]

Believe me.  Not upset.  Disappointed.  And I did.  Why, is it some sort of secret or something?

Something about not airing our dirty laundry in public?

But what do I know...

[isuhawkeye]

There are so many people airing CA{'s dirty laundry this sight really doesn't need to worry

[cnitas]

So, did anyone get a chance to see the demo?  How did it go?

If it truly works as advertised (get a signal, and it plots the location for you on a GPS), this would be worth the legwork of a grant process.

[SE_Tigerstrike]

I'd like to know if anyone got a look at it too...  Like to hear some opinions from someone outside the company that's seen it.

[SE_Tigerstrike]

this would be worth the legwork of a grant process.

Actually, the company does the legwork for you.  We've already engaged the grant writer and have grant proposals written up.

[cnitas]

Have you seen the unit in action?  Have you field tested it?  How did it go?

[SE_Tigerstrike]

Actually, I got one of them this week.  I haven't gotten to test it yet, but if I have time this coming week I'd like to get up with the local CAP and see if they can let me test it out.  If I don't get the chance to, I will be at Hawkins Field in Jackson, MS. on Saturday the 28th for the practice SAR Eval.  Should be getting there between 8 - 9am.  Unfortunately that means I have to get up about 2:30am (about the time I usually go to bed) and start driving.  I'm trying to get one of the guys from California to fly out too, so there will be someone with hands-on experience with it there, but even if it's just me, the device is relatively simple to use, even for me.    

I did show it off to a meeting of amateur radio operators the day I got it, and they were rather impressed with it, even without a transmitter to go hunting for.  The assistant coordinator for the Alabama EMA was there as well, and expressed an interest in it, and even more so when he found out there would be different versions for different uses, including the one on 216 for use with Project Lifesaver.

Instead of filling up this thread with pictures, I'll probably just post further ones to the TigerStrike blog from now on, unless someone specifically requests something.  The blog is at http://firestormts.blogspot.com/ in case anyone was interested.  There's not much there at the moment, but I will be adding something at some point today mentioning the Mississippi trip, and of course anything else that comes up and is worth mentioning.

[Eclipse]

They don't ship with a practice beacon?

[SE_Tigerstrike]

No, why would they?  Most CAP will already have, or have access to, PELTs, and tossing one in the box will just raise the price of the unit for no reason at all.

[Eclipse]

No, why would they?  Most CAP will already have, or have access to, PELTs, and tossing one in the box will just raise the price of the unit for no reason at all.

There are plenty of units that don't have an L-Per, too many, actually, so without providing a practice beacon there's no way to even test it when you get it.

You guys have got to be kidding on a $2k unit that doesn't include a beacon.

[SE_Tigerstrike]

The L-Per is not a beacon, and does not ship with a beacon.  As I understand it, with the wide variety of SAR devices out there, only one provides a practice beacon.  We've done our best to keep the price of the TigerStrike down as low as we can get it, but with everything it does, there's a limit to what you can do.  The next comparable digital compass chip, the Honeywell one used by the military, costs $2000 by itself, just for the chip, not for any of the hardware to make use of it.  Then we add in GPS, cellular communications to rescue base, and bluetooth linking (all in SMT to keep it all small) to the laptop with the topo software running on it so it can automatically plot your location, the ELT's location, AND the best route over the terrain to reach the ELT, all for just the $2000 you would have to pay for the digital compass chip to begin building one of your own.  I think we're doing a pretty good job of keeping the price down.  Then, of course, you have to remember we're also providing you with a grant proposal, all you have to do is provide us with the info, we fill in the slots, it gets submitted, and BAM, you can have a TigerStrike for free...  Remember also, that $2000 is the CAP price.  We're slicing 1/5 right off the top with the price to CAP.  So, not only do we cut the price even more, we help you get it for free if you can't afford it.

Was on the phone with one of the tech guys when I read your message.  His suggestion was that you go out and buy yourself a digital compass with a .1 degree accuracy, a GPS unit better than most you can buy commercially (that much I know myself, last GPS I owned couldn't get a lock inside the building I am in, the TigerStrike locked on as soon as I turned it on sitting at my desk), a cellphone, a bluetooth adapter, some directional antennas, and a roll of duct tape.  Pile everything up together in a big pile and start wrapping it with the duct tape.  Then figure out how to get it all to talk to each other AND to talk to your laptop and plot the map for you to the ELT.  IF you can manage that, you're within 50% of what we can do in a tiny little package the size of the tricorder on the original series of Star Trek.  I imagine your duct taped pile is a little bigger than that...

You can always request your group or wing to provide you with a PELT, I understand they're relatively easy to get that way.  Then there's always converting old ELTs to PELTs by changing out the crystals.  I am sure you can find out how to do that by looking it up on the internet if you're in a pinch.

Look, if you just want to find fault, I am sure you can.  You can find fault with ANYTHING if you want to.  But this company is bending over backwards trying to get the TigerStrike out there because we honestly believe it will save lives, faster, and better, with less training, than anything available today.  Period.  I can stick a TigerStrike into the hand of any reasonably intelligent person that has any experience with RDF and knows how to push buttons and they can be using the TigerStrike to locate a signal within minutes.  I did that with a few ham radio operators a couple of days ago and didn't have to say a word, they just looked at the controls and figured it out by seeing what was on the display screen.

This device will save lives.  Period.  And price shouldn't begin to be an issue when it's possible to get it for FREE...

[Eclipse]

Was on the phone with one of the tech guys when I read your message.  His suggestion was that you go out and buy yourself a digital compass with a .1 degree accuracy, a GPS unit better than most you can buy commercially (that much I know myself, last GPS I owned couldn't get a lock inside the building I am in, the TigerStrike locked on as soon as I turned it on sitting at my desk), a cellphone, a bluetooth adapter, some directional antennas, and a roll of duct tape.  Pile everything up together in a big pile and start wrapping it with the duct tape.  Then figure out how to get it all to talk to each other AND to talk to your laptop and plot the map for you to the ELT.  IF you can manage that, you're within 50% of what we can do in a tiny little package the size of the tricorder on the original series of Star Trek.  I imagine your duct taped pile is a little bigger than that...

You really don't want to start down the road of trying to justify the cost here by comparing this to buying other, similar, retail devices - I have a 4-year old smartphone that does everything your device purports to do (minus the DF) which can be purchased today, along with a cheese-block L-Per, for under $1000.  A 1-inch strip of velcro attaches it to the L-Per stick.  It also has a full-color display and internet connectivity, so I don't need to connect it to a laptop, though I easily could if necessary.

The further fallacy of the specs you provide is that CAP's universe generally operates within +/-5°, so the accuracy you purport is anecdotally interesting, but not of much real value to us.  No one would argue that more accuracy is bad, just not necessary the way our operations run, and we scale our equipment accordingly. 

Citing its potential use for other agencies does not mean much here, either.  This is CAPTalk, afterall.

This device will save lives.  Period.  And price shouldn't begin to be an issue when it's possible to get it for FREE...

Cost is always a factor, if you believe otherwise you don't understand how the world of ES works.  As to the assertion that the average CAP unit can get these "free", well you can get whole buildings and airplanes free with the right grant and earmark, but those situations are few and far between.

Please feel free to list the units that have received one at zero cost or less than the average L-Per.

[SE_Tigerstrike]

It is obvious you only wish to argue.  I can not believe anyone involved in CAP at your level is this dense until it is intentional.  I could be wrong though, I don't know you.  You might really be...nevermind.  I'll try to answer you, then I will get back to work trying to help people save lives.

You really don't want to start down the road of trying to justify the cost here by comparing this to buying other, similar, retail devices

I'm sorry, I didn't think "free" needed justification...

- I have a 4-year old smartphone that does everything your device purports to do (minus the DF) which can be purchased today, along with a cheese-block L-Per, for under $1000.  A 1-inch strip of velcro attaches it to the L-Per stick.  It also has a full-color display and internet connectivity, so I don't need to connect it to a laptop, though I easily could if necessary.

By all means then, I would be more than happy to see you accomplish a rescue in such a fashion.  Oh, preferably before the pilot bleeds to death.  I wasn't aware of any 4 year old smartphones that ran the DeLorme topo software, and plotted positions of you and the ELT, with route information.  Amazing that you have one.  Planning to distribute them to all the squadrons that desperately need the technology?

The further fallacy of the specs you provide is that CAP's universe generally operates within +/-5°, so the accuracy you purport is anecdotally interesting, but not of much real value to us.  No one would argue that more accuracy is bad, just not necessary the way our operations run, and we scale our equipment accordingly. 

Fallacy?  The specs are correct, Sir. 

I suppose that you are saying that since CAP has always operated with a larger margin of error than we provide, it should continue to do so?  No improvement?  No increase in speed and efficiency?  No more lives saved due to a better, faster, easier way to do things?  Are you SERIOUSLY going to sit there and argue for more deaths?  I should hope not.

Citing its potential use for other agencies does not mean much here, either.  This is CAPTalk, afterall.

Now, Sir, you are merely picking nits.  Lashing out since you know you are arguing merely for the sake of argument.  Please stop.  There are people out there truly interested in saving lives, and using a TigerStrike to do so.  If you aren't interested, then realize that no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to take one.  I would hate to think of you being forced to learn a better way of doing anything.

This device will save lives.  Period.  And price shouldn't begin to be an issue when it's possible to get it for FREE...

Cost is always a factor, if you believe otherwise you don't understand how the world of ES works.  As to the assertion that the average CAP unit can get these "free", well you can get whole buildings and airplanes free with the right grant and earmark, but those situations are few and far between.

And we are working to make those situations less few and less far between.  I also wish to thank you, because of your argumentative nature, I just received a call from someone interested in the grant, and we are starting him on the process towards getting a TigerStrike for his squadron...and yes...for free.

Please feel free to list the units that have received one at zero cost or less than the average L-Per.

The above mentioned individual is the first one I have dealt with that needed a grant to obtain a TigerStrike.  Most of the units sold have been in California, a place that apparently has enough money to be able to afford to buy them outright.  In fact, I believe there have been more sales to individual CAP members than to squadrons so far.  You know, people that are CAP members because they are interested in saving lives, faster, better, etc...not because they like to get on CAPtalk and insult and attack people.

Different strokes, I guess...

[notaNCO forever]

 I know plenty of people who would pay that much for a unit like that. If I had enough cash right now I would be one of them. Looks like a good product to me.

[SE_Tigerstrike]

Thank you, and I agree about the duct tape. 

I believe Eclipse is just looking to pick a fight.  I'd rather not, myself.

[Major Lord]

Jim,

Your prediction for going into production mentioned a three week time frame, so these should be out next week? Can you get us in touch with any of the CA purchasers you mentioned so that we can take a look at the units? I agree that you are not obligated to produce training beacons; People can obtain these from a variety of sources, and the regulatory problems and FCC approval process makes it a non-starter.

Major Lord

[SE_Tigerstrike]

Your prediction for going into production mentioned a three week time frame, so these should be out next week? Can you get us in touch with any of the CA purchasers you mentioned so that we can take a look at the units? I agree that you are not obligated to produce training beacons; People can obtain these from a variety of sources, and the regulatory problems and FCC approval process makes it a non-starter.

The only one I know off the top of my head is Lt. Col Ron Butts.  I KNOW he has one, because he's the guy in the pics playing with it.  And he's said he'd be more than happy to talk to anyone about it.  So, look him up in your directory or online and give him a call and bend his ear all you want.  Remember though, I'm SE, not way out west, so I have to ask someone to find out who all has bought one out there, and unlike me the California guys aren't working today. 

[PHall]

If you don't want to fight, then do what your counterparts in California have done.
They stopped posting here...

[Eclipse]

I specifically removed my post because I realized that this is going nowhere.  You chose to rebut a post that was removed.

As Hall said, if you aren't interested in a "fight" debate, this is the wrong place to spend your time, and if you choose to engage people here, a less condescending, personally insulting, attitude will probably sell more product.

My comments were specific to the product, the cost, and the need.  At no point did I question your experience, abilities, or deem it necessary to pontificate about what you or CAP is supposed to do.