Extrication Training

RADIOMAN015 · February 21, 2009, 05:33:28 PM

Liability issues come to my mind on this-- Remember even with Good Samaritan Laws you still might find yourself in court --- On highly probable actual crash responses we should be bringing local fire/rescue & EMS personnel with us as part of the ground team. We should be practicing this on a regular basis with fire/rescue/EMS personnel in our applicable response area. I'm very surprised as part of the AF evaluation process of CAP Wings' SAR operations that they don't mandate this type of joint response training. All AF bases are required to train & orient their local fire/rescue/EMS personnel on aircraft fires/rescues.
RM

Pumbaa · February 21, 2009, 05:42:48 PM

if that is the case, then violators will be shot, and survivors shot again...

Good Sam suits be darned...

RADIOMAN015 · February 21, 2009, 06:54:06 PM

Quote from: Pumbaa on February 21, 2009, 05:42:48 PM
if that is the case, then violators will be shot, and survivors shot again...

Good Sam suits be darned...

It's very unfortunate that the world is like it is, as far as potential litigation. Therefore, we volunteers in CAP need to only meet what the ES standard is for that specific mission position. No more or NO less. When you start adding in additional things, e.g. extrication tools, etc. you run the risk of putting YOURSELF in a personal liability situation that CAP/USAF isn't going to cover you on (and even if they do that doesn't prevent a litigation lawyer from tying up some of your assets during the process, as well as you having to pay for a lawyer and attend court using your personal time off from work). Again you have to think about your families well being first in all situations.

Local fire/rescue departments train in extrication methods on a regular basis. They are the ones responsible for this in their communities (you won't see the police department doing this since they aren't trained to do this). They SHOULD be part of CAP's outreach ES briefing program plan and SHOULD be invited to train with us on a regular basis. That is the prudent approach we should take. Again the USAF during ES evaluations should require that wings show them that CAP has an effective method(s) wing wide for coordinating assistance with these experts when required and appropriate outreach briefings have been given.
RM

es_g0d · February 21, 2009, 07:00:49 PM

I haven't been doing this business for nearly 20 years to allow a patient to expire inside a wreck simply because I'm afraid of liability. I HAVE been trained in extrication, and I'll use those skills if the situation calls for them with no alternatives.

If you are so terribly worried about liability, consult an attorney to see exactly what your risks are. Consider personal liability insurance. As for myself, I'm confident enough with our Federal Tort Claims Act coverage as well as Good Samaritan protections, so long as I don't exceed my training.

(PA Guy -- good links to post! Thanks! I'll tuck that one away for GES training)

Gunner C · February 21, 2009, 07:31:10 PM

There's plenty of training that needs to be addressed:

The use of a short backboard
Scene fire suppression (there's gas all over the place - don't use sparking stuff)
Where are the fuel lines in different aircraft (cut through the metal on either side of the windscreen of a C172 and you get a lapfull of what's left in the fuel tank
Patient assessment (when is it better to wait for the pros to get there, when is it better to extract right now)

I believe this could be effective training, but it has to be done professionally. There's a lot to consider but it is IMO within the capability of many units with a GT capability.

RADIOMAN015 · February 21, 2009, 08:19:48 PM

Quote from: es_g0d on February 21, 2009, 07:00:49 PM
I haven't been doing this business for nearly 20 years to allow a patient to expire inside a wreck simply because I'm afraid of liability. I HAVE been trained in extrication, and I'll use those skills if the situation calls for them with no alternatives.

That GREAT you are trained!!! BUT The vast majority of CAP ground team members haven't been trained in extrication. The best alternative for most is to take the local fire/rescue professionals with them. I just don't see why time & time again, the CAP attitude seems to be "we can do it alone". Isn't this potential "jointness" in response one of the reason we are taking all those FEMA ICS courses???

I think our primary nationwide consistent, available, & well trained ES response team(s) is our aircraft mission crews/ airborne search capabilities. The entire ground team capabilities & response aspects (perhaps with the exception of UDF), varies so greatly among wings (and even within certain geographical areas within wings) that it would be litigation lawyers heaven for an IC to only depend upon dispatching CAP ground teams and or for that matter not requesting stanby/assistance from profession extrication teams in a high probable aircraft crash area. Most press reports on CAP involvement (using google news) seem to indicate that non CAP civilian ground rescue(recovery) teams are more likely to respond than CAP ground forces.

I'm not sure all this additional time & money needs to be spent on this type of training, that likely will never be used on a CAP related mission.
RM

PHall · February 21, 2009, 08:45:20 PM

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 21, 2009, 08:19:48 PM
Quote from: es_g0d on February 21, 2009, 07:00:49 PM
I haven't been doing this business for nearly 20 years to allow a patient to expire inside a wreck simply because I'm afraid of liability. I HAVE been trained in extrication, and I'll use those skills if the situation calls for them with no alternatives.

That GREAT you are trained!!! BUT The vast majority of CAP ground team members haven't been trained in extrication. The best alternative for most is to take the local fire/rescue professionals with them. I just don't see why time & time again, the CAP attitude seems to be "we can do it alone". Isn't this potential "jointness" in response one of the reason we are taking all those FEMA ICS courses???

I think our primary nationwide consistent, available, & well trained ES response team(s) is our aircraft mission crews/ airborne search capabilities. The entire ground team capabilities & response aspects (perhaps with the exception of UDF), varies so greatly among wings (and even within certain geographical areas within wings) that it would be litigation lawyers heaven for an IC to only depend upon dispatching CAP ground teams and or for that matter not requesting stanby/assistance from profession extrication teams in a high probable aircraft crash area. Most press reports on CAP involvement (using google news) seem to indicate that non CAP civilian ground rescue(recovery) teams are more likely to respond than CAP ground forces.

I'm not sure all this additional time & money needs to be spent on this type of training, that likely will never be used on a CAP related mission.
RM

Amen Brother...

es_g0d · February 21, 2009, 09:13:38 PM

Radioman015:
Kindly take a read back. My first post said that extrication training is a great "continuation training" activity, it is CLEARLY above and beyond basic qualification. Anyone who knows me will also know that I firmly believe in all risk / interagency response. "Going it alone" is NOT the right answer, but sometimes its all you have.

In short, I agree with most of what you are saying! You are, however, making it a personal attack and attempting to use snark. The premise of the thread was that CAP doing extrication is WAY down the list of possibilities. Even so, we shouldn't be ignorant to it just because its a one-in-a-thousand scenario. Whenever possible, I'm not going to use a hack saw and a pry bar when I have a heavy rescue unit within response time/range.

You are, of course, quite right that capabilities, equipment, and training vary extremely widely from location to location. I've been fortunate enough to live and be a CAP member in a good sampling of locations and wings and experience that firsthand. And again, you're right that our concentration should be on continuing to establish a consistent baseline of responders. That should never preclude, however, advanced training for those who are ready for it. For what its worth, "local fire/rescue professionals" can vary greatly as well, although generally its in the range from "excellent" to "outstanding."

That's the same place I want CAP to be! Excellent to Outstanding! Advanced continuation training is part of that formula. Help me with that, please!

RiverAux · February 21, 2009, 09:47:01 PM

QuoteThat GREAT you are trained!!! BUT The vast majority of CAP ground team members haven't been trained in extrication.

Gee, didn't I suggest in the opening post of this thread that we actually include training in extrication in our curriculum? I don't see this any differently than the survival tasks in the GT curriculum -- almost no CAP members are ever going to use those skills on a CAP mission, but we want to be prepared just in case.

flyerthom · February 22, 2009, 11:18:08 PM

Contact Cirrus. They have a specific proceedure for dealing with the ballistic parachute. If you haven't reviewed it you should not approach a downed SR 20 or 22.

davidsinn · February 23, 2009, 12:15:13 AM

Quote from: flyerthom on February 22, 2009, 11:18:08 PM
Contact Cirrus. They have a specific proceedure for dealing with the ballistic parachute. If you haven't reviewed it you should not approach a downed SR 20 or 22.

Same goes for some 150-182 Cessnas. I've seen three in one place with the BRS installed. Something to be aware of.

Stonewall · February 23, 2009, 04:07:56 AM

Found a picture. I think this is from 1999 or so. Cadets demonstrating the B&E kit I mentioned on page one of this thread.

lordmonar · February 23, 2009, 08:02:33 PM

I think some extraction training would be a good thing.

I don't think we need to go so far as requiring "assited" extraction (those requiring K12 saws or Jaws), but we definatly need short board and C-collar training as well as (as mentioned before) fire suppression training.

Yes it is unlikely we will ever use it...but we can be ready for the 1 time out of a 1000 we will encounter.

As for liabilty......I don't see us picking up any more liabilty than we had before. Extraction and spinal cord management is still within basic first aid/first responder training.

The good samaritan laws apply to all non-professional rescuers. By the legal definition that is anyone who is not paid to do the rescueing and of course on all AFAM missions we are covered by the FTCA.

arajca · February 23, 2009, 09:14:34 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on February 23, 2009, 08:02:33 PM
The good samaritan laws apply to all non-professional rescuers. By the legal definition that is anyone who is not paid to do the rescueing and of course on all AFAM missions we are covered by the FTCA.

In which state? The parameters of Good Samaritan laws differ between states. For example, one state refers to non-professional rescuers meaning not paid. Another state refers to "organized search and rescue teams" regardless of pay status.

Everytime someone asks about Good Sam laws, they are quickly told to contact their wing legal officer for more information because of the varying verbage in the laws, which can significantly affect who it applies to.

RiverAux · February 23, 2009, 09:23:32 PM

Drifting off topic folks. For sake of all future discussions on this thread, lets assume the person is trapped but uninjured. We have other threads on medical issues.

lordmonar · February 23, 2009, 10:34:26 PM

Quote from: arajca on February 23, 2009, 09:14:34 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 23, 2009, 08:02:33 PM
The good samaritan laws apply to all non-professional rescuers. By the legal definition that is anyone who is not paid to do the rescueing and of course on all AFAM missions we are covered by the FTCA.
In which state? The parameters of Good Samaritan laws differ between states. For example, one state refers to non-professional rescuers meaning not paid. Another state refers to "organized search and rescue teams" regardless of pay status.

Everytime someone asks about Good Sam laws, they are quickly told to contact their wing legal officer for more information because of the varying verbage in the laws, which can significantly affect who it applies to.

http://www.cprinstructor.com/legal.htm