Black Boots in ABUs?

[mikeylikey]

^ ACU??  There are various uniform combos of that uniform for various climates.  Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying..........

[DC]

^ ACU??  There are various uniform combos of that uniform for various climates.  Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying..........

It is my understanding that the Universal Pattern camouflage that appears on the ACU is intended to camouflage the wearer in a multitude of environments, eliminating the need for separate patterns for different environments.

I was referring to the camouflage pattern on the ACU, not the style of uniform directly.

[mikeylikey]

^ Understood.  My mistake!

[Hawk200]

It is my understanding that the Universal Pattern camouflage that appears on the ACU is intended to camouflage the wearer in a multitude of environments, eliminating the need for separate patterns for different environments.

Intent is far different than application. I've only been one place that the ACU "Universal" camo would have been effective. The Denver International Airport terminal. The colors would have been perfect.

The Army is already considering ditching it.

But back to the original post: Black boots may be OK, as long as you don't have to actually shine them to keep them from getting ruined by oil and grease. The old ones did need a little bit of wax for that reason. It made a difference.

[Stonewall]

New Airman Battle Uniform Boots
Week of February 15, 2010

The results are in, and the final decision has been made concerning a prototype Airman Battle Uniform stain-resistant boot for wear in industrial environments. The wear test choice is a sage green, full-grain leather boot, which incorporates a rubber toe and heel cap that resists staining and increases durability. As an interim solution until a stain-resistant boot is produced, a policy has been issued allowing commanders to authorize wear of black boots in specific industrial work areas.

Once a stain-resistant boot is approved for production, the black boot wear policy will be phased out and replaced by the new sage green stain-resistant boot for industrial use only. More information will be available on the approval and production of a new stain-resistant boot by early summer 2010.

LINKY

[raivo]

Intent is far different than application. I've only been one place that the ACU "Universal" camo would have been effective. The Denver International Airport terminal. The colors would have been perfect.

Late to the party, but...

[RiverAux]

Beetle Bailey could probably use that uniform to hide from Sarge...

[Hawk200]

Intent is far different than application. I've only been one place that the ACU "Universal" camo would have been effective. The Denver International Airport terminal. The colors would have been perfect.

Late to the party, but...
...

Way late, that pic's been out since a few months after ACUs were first fielded. It's been a running joke in the Army for years.

It's old, even though it is hilarious.

[TACP]

If we were able to change something about the ABUs boots would be the least of my worries. The uniform is terrible in general, from the material to the setup. Boots generally come in the same variety as the tan/black, and it doesn't really matter because they all get dirty and brown. Lets try to make a uniform that is light weight, long lasting, and has pockets that are actually functional.

They had 'Battlefield Airman' careerfields test wearing this uniform for 2-3 years before mass production, with each person giving huge amounts of input on how STUPID it is. The only change? Slight variation to the color.

[Hawk200]

Lets try to make a uniform that is light weight, long lasting, and has pockets that are actually functional.

Unfortunately, the two concepts are somewhat mutually exclusive. What's possible is a heavier weight, but breathable.

The problem is that the military doesn't want to spend the money to develop it. They also don't want to pay someone else who's already done the developing. There's the additional issue of each branch is just inherently incapable of accepting the results of other branches, and at times outright contradicting previous research.

They had 'Battlefield Airman' careerfields test wearing this uniform for 2-3 years before mass production, with each person giving huge amounts of input on how STUPID it is. The only change? Slight variation to the color.

Yeah, didn't help credibility at all when a Chief, wearing what is not lovingly known as "blueberry camo", made the statement that "I was standing next to a blue spruce and the camo worked great!".

I'm thinking that each branch needs to quit doing their own research, and simply identify their needs to a central DOD development section, and let that one central point develop everything. One uniform camo, let that central office develop any variants that are needed in the way of flyers, convoy operators, spec ops, etc. Get rid of the elitist and really unnecessary utilities that only exist for branch ego and create higher senseless costs.

Hmmm, that felt kind of good...

[PHall]

I'm thinking that each branch needs to quit doing their own research, and simply identify their needs to a central DOD development section, and let that one central point develop everything. One uniform camo, let that central office develop any variants that are needed in the way of flyers, convoy operators, spec ops, etc. Get rid of the elitist and really unnecessary utilities that only exist for branch ego and create higher senseless costs.

Oh, so you want DARPA to mess with it. That could be interesting...

[TACP]

Lets try to make a uniform that is light weight, long lasting, and has pockets that are actually functional.

Unfortunately, the two concepts are somewhat mutually exclusive. What's possible is a heavier weight, but breathable.

I would disagree... I find the summer weight BDUs to be a comfortable material/weight, and still wear an acceptable set of mine from 4 years. Of course a little faded, but that's expected. It's the little things that are irritating about ABUs, like putting the pen pocket on the inside of the sleeves so they jab you in the bicep any time you're working. Or my favorite, not putting pockets on the sleeves because we want to keep the 'heritage' of the stripes. Are we serious here? Make our WORK uniform functional, worry about history with the blues.

And you mentioned saving money as well, which the Air Force really hasn't done. Instead of creating a uniform we could wear at all times they spent some unspeakable amount producing ABS-Gs, which actually have EVERYTHING that you could possibly want on a work uniform, but can only be worn outside the wire.

[Hawk200]

I would disagree... I find the summer weight BDUs to be a comfortable material/weight, and still wear an acceptable set of mine from 4 years.

That's actually the same basic material that ABU's use, but I've never really considered that ripstop "long lasting". Yeah, it is possible to wear them for four years, I've done the same thing, but you've got to admit it takes some care to do it. Washing them properly, not starching them, and certainly not using an ironing system that burns holes above the buttons.

There are materials that would make a summerweight uniform only slightly thicker, but even more breathable than ripstop. The problem is expense. No military branch wants to do it, and they don't want to pay anyone that's done the research for their product. It's a "Not Invented Here" syndrome.

The Air Force put out that it was impossible to replace the flightsuit with a camo printed version because there was no way to make the print on Nomex. Funny, in that the Army had been doing it for years with the ABDU, and now the A2CU. It was basically a case of "It can't be done" ahead a whisper of "We don't want that". It's an example of one service contradicting another because the research doesn't meet one's desires.

Or my favorite, not putting pockets on the sleeves because we want to keep the 'heritage' of the stripes.

I hear that. If memory serves, the Air Force was the only branch to have stripes on the sleeves of BDUs. All the other branches wore collar insignia.

[Hawk200]

Are we serious here? Make our WORK uniform functional, worry about history with the blues.

Agreed. The service uniforms should be service identity, when it comes to the field, use what works not what's pretty.

There's an additional OPSEC advantage to it. When you see a service specific field uniform, it doesn't take much to figure out what they're up to. In your own case, a bunch of airman around means that some aerial firepower is probably not too far behind. Not so bad if you get to wear the ACU when you're hanging with us grunts, but why should you need special issue to do that? With all branches in the same field utilities, you won't need it, you're all already wearing the same thing.

Standardizing rank placement and size wouldn't hurt, either. And when it comes to accessories, the Marines adopted a very practical concept that I read about fifteen years ago, coyote brown. Instead of two different colors of web gear (green and tan), you had one that worked with either uniform and in multiple environments. A Multicam print for all services with coyote brown accessories would handle most environments that any branch would work in.

And you mentioned saving money as well, which the Air Force really hasn't done. Instead of creating a uniform we could wear at all times they spent some unspeakable amount producing ABS-Gs, which actually have EVERYTHING that you could possibly want on a work uniform, but can only be worn outside the wire.

I picked up that issue of the Times while in theatre, it looked like it did have just about everything you'd need. But it could probably still use some fine tuning. However, that's where a central development would pay for itself. What's good for the Airman medic is just as good for the Navy Corpsman, or the Ranger medic.

A joint development with all branches present but under a DOD office would probably be the ticket on getting everyone something that works well with less cost to the taxpayers footing the bill. Sure, you might have a standard duty uniform, a convoy uniform (with flash resistant properties), a flyer/fuelers fire resistant outfit, a medics ensemble, etc; but even the more specialized uniforms would be cheaper because they're standardized.

Keeping in mind the original topic, black boots with ABUs comes back to the original outlook of the Air Force in that you have to be neat and pressed all the time, stains on your boots just aren't acceptable. I don't think anyone should show up to work looking like they got an oil bath, but stains during the day and on working boots are a given, and should be accepted.

[raivo]

Related: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/02/army_multicam_030110w/

Interesting pattern, it looks like a cross between the DCU and the BDU.

[TACP]

It's an amazing pattern, one that is actually effective in more places than a rock quarry. Best of all the Air Force is already looking at outfitting their combat airman with the same for outside the wire ops.

[Stonewall]

From Aug 2009...

The 2010 House Defense Authorization Bill Requirements for Standard Ground Combat Uniform This section would require the Secretary of Defense, in consultation with the Defense Logistics Agency, to require that future ground combat uniforms be standardized in order to ensure increased interoperability of ground combat forces and reduce tactical risks encountered when military personnel wear a different uniform from their counterparts in the other military services in a combat area.

Full article: Congress Proposes Common Ground Combat Uniform

Best of all the Air Force is already looking at outfitting their combat airman with the same for outside the wire ops.

AFSOC Security Forces out of Hurlburt Field, FL in January 2008.


A members of a Deployed Aircraft Ground Response Element from the 1st Special Operations
Security Forces Squadron catalog and bag evidence gathered from a simulated high value
target elimination scene during the Emerald Warrior Exercise, Feb. 3. The forensic evidence
collected from the scene could result in the identification of other high value targets. 
(Photo by Senior Airman Julianne Showalter : 1st Special Operations Wing Public Affairs)


A member of a Deployed Aircraft Ground Response Element from the 1st Special Operations
Security Forces Squadron surveys the area for threats during a tactical evidence collection
simulation during the Emerald Warrior Exercise, Feb. 3. Collecting forensic evidence from the
scene verifies the elimination targets and provides further intelligence for other high value
targets.  (Photo by Senior Airman Julianne Showalter : 1st Special Operations Wing Public Affairs)

[fquinonez]

I must say that there have been some very interesting comments and it seems that a lot of you truly believe that there should only be one uniform.  We have tried that with the original Camouflage Utility Uniform, aka BDU's or cammies.  The issue was that there was no standard wear.  The Navy and Marine Corps rolled/folded our sleeves one way and bloused trousers over our boots.  The Army and Air Force rolled a different way and tucked their trousers in their boots.  Then came all of the insignia and attavchment goodies.  When I was on active duty, Marines did not wear anything on the Cammies other than an Eagle, Globe, and Anchor ironed on to our left breast pocket, along with rank insignia on our collars.  The only time we had names showing on our uniforms was when you were on a MEU at sea.  When we were forced to apply name tapes in 1991, there was a huge backlash, but we did as the Commandant ordered.

One of the reasons that the Marine Corps has trade marked the new digtal pattern for a few different reasons, one of them is because as Marines, we expect a higher standard and thus do not allow anyone to wear the uniform that is not a Marine.  I have friends who left active duty in te Marine Corps and are serving forward with the Marine Corps, and they are not allowed to wear the new pattern.  They wear the older desert camo patterns. 

Pride and tradition in the Marine Corps and Naval Services around the world are incredibly important and those traditions must be protected.  Even from those that meant no harm.

(off soap box)

[fquinonez]

One more comment on this.  Even though the Army and Air Force encourage their personnel to wear the utility uniforms off base, the Marine Corps specifically does not allow this practice.  A while back the Marine Corps relaxed the rules to allow for short stops out in town for gas, picking up kids, etc.  However, when the current Commandant took command, he issued a Marine Corps Order banning all use of utility uniforms off base, unless you are in your vehicle driving to or from work.  No stops are allowed.

Many think this is not right, but if this is supposed to be a work uniform, it will get dirty.  If you are dirty, you should not wear it around civilians, becuse you are an ambassador of not only your branch of service, but the United States Armed Forces as a whole.

[Spike]

^ fquinonez,

Wow.  That was a lot to take in.  If you bear with me I will try to tackle your posts in some logical manner.

First, you are repeating the "we are best, because we are Marines" propaganda that is primarily used as a recruitment tool.  The Marine Corps in fact did not patent the digital pattern.  It was in fact vetted at the Army Labs at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, and has a copyright by the Department of Defense.  The pattern is available to any Armed Service should they choose to use it.  I believe it was a DOD directive in the late 1950's that stated "the Services are required to share innovations and designs between each other".  Thus the "one uniform" idea was born.  Green Fatigues were the first uniform worn by each Armed Service, and each was allowed to add to the basic design service distinctive emblems and traditions.  The Marines chose to wear green fatigues a certain way, just as the Air Force chose to place blue name and branch tapes on the shirt.

Later the BDU's were adopted with the same agreement, that each service gets the BDU's and can add to the design, but not take anything away.

One of the reasons that the Marine Corps has trade marked the new digital pattern for a few different reasons, one of them is because as Marines, we expect a higher standard and thus do not allow anyone to wear the uniform that is not a Marine.  I have friends who left active duty in the Marine Corps and are serving forward with the Marine Corps, and they are not allowed to wear the new pattern.  They wear the older desert camo patterns. 

Pride and tradition in the Marine Corps and Naval Services around the world are incredibly important and those traditions must be protected. Even from those that meant no harm.

(off soap box)

About what I quoted above, did you know that the Army, Navy and Marine Corps all wore the same uniform until the year 1817.  Of course each created different ways to wear it to make it distinctive but they all wore the same base uniform.

I also do not believe that a Marine who leaves active duty and is recalled to duty would be forced to wear the old Marine Corps uniform.  In fact, I personally know that is not true.  They are issued uniforms that conform to current directives at time of recall.  In fact part of serving in the Reserves or IRR is the rule to keep your uniform set current, unless retired (then you would be forced to buy the new set upon recall).

My Wife just so happens to be a former Marine, now an Army Lawyer.  She was recalled to service and had to purchase brand new Marine uniforms at personal expense for her deployment.

For your "higher standard" about Marines, sure I will give that to you.  We each believe our Service is better than the others, but that propaganda and doctrine that is used as a motivator.  I happen to be a former Army Officer.  In 2005 I was recalled to Active Duty because they needed Armor Officers.  I served my time, went back to the Army Reserve and am now going to my first UTA as an Air Force Reserve Lawyer.  No one service is better than another.  They all do almost the same thing......Kill the enemy.  If you want to break it down, the Army is the premier occupier of land.  They take and keep enemy realestate.  The Marines are good at the "get in get out" method and the Air Force supports the Army and Marines by killing the enemy from the air, while bringing in cargo.  The Navy....kills anything in or around the water and transports marines and soldiers to the battle. 

We are all one team.  If you ask anyone here who served in 2 separate services, they would probably agree that each service is unique, but dependant on each other.  We are a team!  Shouting off recruiting propaganda that "you are not worthy unless you are a Marine" is silly at least, and disrespectful at most. 

To sum it up;  I was a combat Officer, was an IRR punk, and now will assist military members with legal issues.  I have gone from combat to nothing to support role in a few years time.  I have transferred services, worked with each service and am married to a former Marine.  I have a kid on the way, bought a new house and have a successful career in the "civilian world".

By the way......welcome to CAPTALK