So now we all have to buy alternate uniforms

[SSgt Rudin]

The newest revisions of CAPR 173-4 prohibits senior members from wearing USAF style uniforms at fund raising activities. However, CAPR 173-4 fails to define what a fund raising event is. If a squadron is asked to preform a service such as directing cars where to park at an event or collecting tickets at an event and as a result of the service provided a donation is made to the squadron by the organizer of the event is that considered a "fund raising event?"

CAPR 173-4 lists a number of suggested fund raising activities but is not an all inclusive list and much depends on the circumstances. For example, the location of the event described might determine whether CAP members could wear uniforms. If the event is a sporting event or concert conducted in the local area, It would likely qualify as a fund raising event and thus senior members would not wear the USAF style uniform. If the event was an air show conducted on a military base, uniforms would probably be appropriate even though the sponsor or organizer later makes a financial contribution to the unit. The wing commander must approve all unit fund raisers. Requests for wing commander approval should include all pertinent details and ask for clarification on wearing the uniform to the event if the situation is unclear.

Please see knowledgebase answer(s) below for additional details.

Title: Suggested local unit fund raising activities
URL: http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1429&p_created=1095859525

Title: Wearing the CAP uniform when selling fund raising tickets
URL: http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1054&p_created=1065799887

Title: Approval of unit fund raising activities
URL: http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1783&p_created=1141656902

Title: Conducting a fund raiser
URL: http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=237&p_created=1012427816

Title: Prohibited Fund Raising Activities
URL: http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=337&p_created=1017075218

If what constitutes a fund raising activity is not clearly defined, how is a unit commander or activity officer in charge supposed to know if the event requires Wing Commander approval and subsequently that senior members are not permitted to wear USAF style uniforms?

It is a fund raising event if the unit receives funds for its efforts. By regulation the wing commander needs to approve unit fund raising activities.

Now I get to spend more of my money on more uniforms I only need because someone decided the we as the USAF auxiliary should not be mistaken as a part of the Air Force, unless we are doing something that benefits them. Maybe someone at NHQ or CAP-USAF would be nice enough to completely revamp the 39-1 so I have to buy more crap from Vanguard.

[FW]

All good questions LT.

CAPR 173-4 never let senior members wear the AF style uniform during fund raising activities.  Cadets may wear the AF style uniform.  Any CAP "distinctive" uniform is allowed;  so is appropriate civilian attire.

All fund raising events must be first approved by the wing/cc.  A fund raising event is any event which brings in funds to the unit.  That includes bake sales, car washes, parking cars, helping at the local airshow, etc.

[Hawk200]

All fund raising events must be first approved by the wing/cc.  A fund raising event is any event which brings in funds to the unit.  That includes bake sales, car washes, parking cars, helping at the local airshow, etc.

Guess it's a good thing that we help at the local airshow because we have free rent at the airport. Glad I don't have to buy anything for that.

[brasda91]

are you freakin' kiddin'??    who at national thinks up these stupid reg's??!!

[arajca]

A couple points:
1. Adults wearing the AF uniform for fundraising can give (not intentionally) the impression that they're raising money for the AF, not CAP. Even if you have the time to explain the difference, most people will walk away with the idea they gave money to the AF.
2. Wearing civilian clothes is an option. I presume everyone here has at least ONE set of civilian clothes.
3. It is not unusual for youth to wear a uniform for fundraising and the adults to wear something different.

Whether an event is considered a fundraiser depends on alot of things. One of which is did you do the event to raise money, i.e. park cars, or did you do it as a service to get your name out/earn community service hours or points and the sponsor decided to make a donation afterward? Say the local Rotary is holding a pancake breakfast and asks your unit to help with parking without mentioning any potential donation. Would you do it? Would you look at it as supporting the community? Building relationships? Providing opportunities for community service for cadets? After the event ends, the local Rotary president walks up, says thanks, and hands the CAP leader a check for $200.00 from the club. Is the event now a fundraiser and how do you retroactively comply with the regs?

[SJFedor]

A couple points:
1. Adults wearing the AF uniform for fundraising can give (not intentionally) the impression that they're raising money for the AF, not CAP. Even if you have the time to explain the difference, most people will walk away with the idea they gave money to the AF.
2. Wearing civilian clothes is an option. I presume everyone here has at least ONE set of civilian clothes.
3. It is not unusual for youth to wear a uniform for fundraising and the adults to wear something different.

Whether an event is considered a fundraiser depends on alot of things. One of which is did you do the event to raise money, i.e. park cars, or did you do it as a service to get your name out/earn community service hours or points and the sponsor decided to make a donation afterward? Say the local Rotary is holding a pancake breakfast and asks your unit to help with parking without mentioning any potential donation. Would you do it? Would you look at it as supporting the community? Building relationships? Providing opportunities for community service for cadets? After the event ends, the local Rotary president walks up, says thanks, and hands the CAP leader a check for $200.00 from the club. Is the event now a fundraiser and how do you retroactively comply with the regs?

I would say that if there was not a pre-determined amount or percentage known that would be given to the unit for it's services, the scenario you described is more of the Rotary club making a donation to the unit, not the unit fund raising through the Rotary. It all depends on the context and what was said/agreed upon prior to the start of the event.

[FW]

are you freakin' kiddin'??    who at national thinks up these stupid reg's??!!

The simple answer (at least for 173-4):  That would be me

But, this reg as been around for a long time.  It is the AF which prohibits us from wearing the AF style uniform.

Andrew and Steven are correct with their comments.  "Friendraising" does not require previous permission.  If a donation comes from this, great.   However, if you were expecting funds from your participation; this is one case where asking permission is better than asking forgiveness.

[RiverAux]

1. Adults wearing the AF uniform for fundraising can give (not intentionally) the impression that they're raising money for the AF, not CAP. Even if you have the time to explain the difference, most people will walk away with the idea they gave money to the AF.

A senior member in BDUs is wearing exactly the same uniform as a cadet in BDUs and neither of them will be wearing a single thing identifying them with the USAF.    If they're in blues, its a slightly different story.

I don't care what uniform you're doing the fundraising in, but at some point you're going to be explaining that CAP is an AF auxiliary and does missions for the AF.  If you can fundraise without explaining that, you're a better person than I.  And that being the case, it shouldn't matter whether you're wearing an AF-style uniform or not. 

[JayT]

1. Adults wearing the AF uniform for fundraising can give (not intentionally) the impression that they're raising money for the AF, not CAP. Even if you have the time to explain the difference, most people will walk away with the idea they gave money to the AF.

A senior member in BDUs is wearing exactly the same uniform as a cadet in BDUs and neither of them will be wearing a single thing identifying them with the USAF.    If they're in blues, its a slightly different story.

I don't care what uniform you're doing the fundraising in, but at some point you're going to be explaining that CAP is an AF auxiliary and does missions for the AF.  If you can fundraise without explaining that, you're a better person than I.  And that being the case, it shouldn't matter whether you're wearing an AF-style uniform or not. 

Don't take this the wrong way, but that whole 'Well BDUs/Flight suits aren't really Air Force uniforms' is kinda getting old.

People identify it automatically with the Army or Air Force.

And, very simply. "Hi, we're the Civil Air Patrol, a NFP who doesn't work for the Air Force, Federal Government, and a number of other organizations and levels of government."

[SSgt Rudin]

1. Adults wearing the AF uniform for fundraising can give (not intentionally) the impression that they're raising money for the AF, not CAP. Even if you have the time to explain the difference, most people will walk away with the idea they gave money to the AF.

A senior member in BDUs is wearing exactly the same uniform as a cadet in BDUs and neither of them will be wearing a single thing identifying them with the USAF.    If they're in blues, its a slightly different story.

I don't care what uniform you're doing the fundraising in, but at some point you're going to be explaining that CAP is an AF auxiliary and does missions for the AF.  If you can fundraise without explaining that, you're a better person than I.  And that being the case, it shouldn't matter whether you're wearing an AF-style uniform or not. 

Don't take this the wrong way, but that whole 'Well BDUs/Flight suits aren't really Air Force uniforms' is kinda getting old.

People identify it automatically with the Army or Air Force.

And, very simply. "Hi, we're the Civil Air Patrol, a NFP who doesn't work for the Air Force, Federal Government, and a number of other organizations and levels of government."

Most people think older cadets are AD Air Force. When we have Command Staff meetings (CC, CD, C/CC, C/CD, C/XO) they are normally over lunch or dinner. I have seen waitresses ask if they (the cadets) wanted a beer, assuming that they were young looking AF officers and not cadets.

IMHO if someone is wearing the TPU I think there is a better chance of being mistaken for AF, there are more things that stand out on USAF style blues as "NOT AIR FORCE." But hey, maybe people will give us more money if we fund raise in BBDU's, they will think were members of the SWAT team raising money for PAL.

I thought of something else. One of the events my squadron does every year is direct cars where to park at the carnival. We get paid for this, by the people who run the carnival, we have been doing it for them since about 1993. They know who we are and what their "donation" is going too, the know we are not the AF, as a matter of fact one of the organizers used to be a cadet in the 60's. No advertisement is made to the public that we get money for working the event. How would wearing USAF style uniforms, specifically BDU's, have any affect on the event? I guess you could argue that "how does not wearing USAF style uniforms affect the event", and my answer for that is:
1. The cadets are not permitted to direct traffic entering or leaving an actual road, only SM's do that. BDU's "command more authority" in the eyes of the general public, and when a guy is standing in the middle of the road yelling at you for driving down the wrong side of the road, I have noticed they listen better to me in BDU's more often than my counterparts in BBDU's, but that could also be because I used to be an NCO and yell more effectively.
2: People ask more questions about who you are when you are in BDU's. And with over 8,000 cars rolling through the parking a day in a 3 day event thats a lot more chances to get a new member.

[Eagle400]

IMHO if someone is wearing the TPU I think there is a better chance of being mistaken for AF, there are more things that stand out on USAF style blues as "NOT AIR FORCE."

Yes.  Especially when folks like this show up:


NCR Chaplain Service Staff College

Kinda defeats the purpose of the whole uniform, don't you think?  Especially with regard to the blatantly misappropriated silver sleeve braids.

But hey, maybe people will give us more money if we fund raise in BBDU's, they will think were members of the SWAT team raising money for PAL.

You may be on to something... 

[SSgt Rudin]

IMHO if someone is wearing the TPU I think there is a better chance of being mistaken for AF, there are more things that stand out on USAF style blues as "NOT AIR FORCE."

Yes.  Especially when folks like this show up:


NCR Chaplain Service Staff College

Kinda defeats the purpose of the whole uniform, don't you think?  Especially with regard to the blatantly misappropriated silver sleeve braids.

How do you get everything else right, but then throw you military badges and ribbons on there?

[Hawk200]

How do you get everything else right, but then throw you military badges and ribbons on there?

One of two things...

1. "Oh, I didn't know I couldn't wear my military stuff on this uniform."  (Pretty unlikely)

-OR-

2. "I earned them, I'm going to wear them, I don't care what the reg says!" (I'd bet on this one.)

I just realized that a lot of our major (and willful) uniform offenders happen to have some military background. May have to look at that a little closer.

[jimmydeanno]

I thought of something else. One of the events my squadron does every year is direct cars where to park at the carnival. We get paid for this, by the people who run the carnival, we have been doing it for them since about 1993. They know who we are and what their "donation" is going too, the know we are not the AF, as a matter of fact one of the organizers used to be a cadet in the 60's. No advertisement is made to the public that we get money for working the event. How would wearing USAF style uniforms, specifically BDU's, have any affect on the event? I guess you could argue that "how does not wearing USAF style uniforms affect the event", and my answer for that is:
1. The cadets are not permitted to direct traffic entering or leaving an actual road, only SM's do that. BDU's "command more authority" in the eyes of the general public, and when a guy is standing in the middle of the road yelling at you for driving down the wrong side of the road, I have noticed they listen better to me in BDU's more often than my counterparts in BBDU's, but that could also be because I used to be an NCO and yell more effectively.
2: People ask more questions about who you are when you are in BDU's. And with over 8,000 cars rolling through the parking a day in a 3 day event thats a lot more chances to get a new member.

That is not soliciting money from the general public by standing in front of wal*mart with your jar for donations.  I'm pretty sure that is the difference.

[0]

Wait so then wouldn't that mean that if we have an awards banquet where the squadron could make a little extra we can't wear our Mess Dress Uniforms? 

[Pylon]

Wait so then wouldn't that mean that if we have an awards banquet where the squadron could make a little extra we can't wear our Mess Dress Uniforms? 

A strict interpretation of the rules would say yes.  A reasonable interpretation of them would say no.

But I have to agree with the above sentiments that seniors dressed in the CSU with actual AF officer epaulets on the shoulders or metal rank on the corporate dress jacket doesn't look any less Air Force than the AF-style uniforms.  In some cases, it looks more AF.   

[0]

It does.  I think this is one of those rules that should be treated like the grazing law in Boston.  It's there but no one follows it.

For those that don't know, it's still legal to bring your cows to Boston Common to graze on Sundays.  It's not done, but you still could.  :angel:
Now to go buy a cow and do it just to see what the police say. 

[notaNCO forever]

 I've seen plenty of cadets mistaken for being in the military and also the TPU looks similar enough to an Air Force uniform to be mistaken for an Air Force uniform so I don't see how it helps.

[0]

I've seen plenty of cadets mistaken for being in the military and also the TPU looks similar enough to an Air Force uniform to be mistaken for an Air Force uniform so I don't see how it helps.

My personal favorite is if I'm in line picking something up quick at the grocery store on my way home and someone asking if I'm the Army.

[notaNCO forever]

I've seen plenty of cadets mistaken for being in the military and also the TPU looks similar enough to an Air Force uniform to be mistaken for an Air Force uniform so I don't see how it helps.

My personal favorite is if I'm in line picking something up quick at the grocery store on my way home and someone asking if I'm the Army.

It will still probably take people five years to figure out the army no longer uses BDU's.